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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What is the appeal of Arena PvP. I seriously don't get it.

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148 posts found
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17114

4/23/13 9:59:13 AM#21
Originally posted by Dauzqul

 

I say this with 100% confidence: If rewards were removed from Battlegrounds / Arenas, nobody would play them. Why? Because they are boring.

Not at all.

My first experience with "arena" pvp was Warhammer and I have to say, outside fo the sieges in Lineage 2 (the good sieges, not the sieges where you stood around because the enemy signed up to waste your time) it was the most fun I had in ages.

Very concise goals, people were pretty even, it was non-stop action as opposed to standing around or worse, just rolling over your opponent which isn't really fun for me.

hmmm makes me want to go sign up again...

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

4/23/13 10:09:19 AM#22
Originally posted by Maelwydd

RvR is like your typical war between countries. Usually lots of people vs lots of people with the potential for widely ranging skills and abilities. Sometimes tactics, sometimes numbers sometimes skill wins the day.

hahahahahahaa

Hey, are you the Iraqi information minister? Seriously...what is this magical ability of RvR that makes it the only way to have pride and exclusive rights to tactics and skill that non RvR games just plain simple cannot have just because there are no realms...nevermind, the rose colored glasses make it impossible to answer that in a non-biased way.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/23/13 10:20:44 AM#23
Because they bought the lie from blizzard and arenanet that mmos can do Esports and have this mythical balance thing.
  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

4/23/13 10:24:11 AM#24
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Because they bought the lie from blizzard and arenanet that mmos can do Esports and have this mythical balance thing.

Would that be the balance thing that also did not exist before Blizzard and Arenanet came along? Guess Esports had nothing to do with it...

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/23/13 10:25:12 AM#25
It still doesn't exist!
  Helleri

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 766

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”- Henry Ford

4/23/13 10:29:05 AM#26

I have to largely agree with Aesperus. There are some things I'd like to add though to some of those main points that I feel have the weight of consideration in this.

[ Note: For clarities sake, I am going to change some colors here and ad in:

D: for comments made by Dauzqul

A: for response comments made by Aasperus

H: For my own repsonse comments. ]

 

Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Dauzqul

Please help me understand the appeal for such a terrible PvP concept...

D: #1. Everyone looks the same (Everyone of the same class will ultimately be wearing the same PvP gear).

A: This really depends on gear. The few PvP games that aren't gear-grind centric don't really have this problem.

H: A 'same look' can also be out of nescessity. an online game is no more taxing on a macjhines resources then when one is engaged in active pvp. Developers who plan on having a heavy PvP element or PvP as the main point to their game need to minimize the diversity of mesh, textures, particle effects, sounds, and animations, to at least some reasonable degree in, order to help insure smooth play through less lag. The greater the extent of this, usally, the smoother the play is for it.


D: #4. Since there are so few instances, the best and obvious strategies are learned by all within the first month. Thus, gameplay becomes a rinse and repeat process.

A: This, again, depends on the game, and whether or not there is a healthy meta. If there is, then these strategies change fairly frequently. And what might work one month, might not work at all the next.

H: I have found a lot of it is about team work and more specifically communication. The team with clear and resolute leadership, that stays talking with each other about what is happening and what needs to happen typically wins. Even, where they would be by statistics alone far outmatched. To someone who doesn't understand a sport...say like american football, or Baseball...it all looks the same. But, it is not.

D: #5. There is literally zero element of surprise. Everyone is pre-buffed and expecting combat. Everyone knows where the opposition is coming from. Everyone is ready. There is no such thing as an ambush or grand escape. There is no such thing as infiltration.

A: Not necessarily. Stealth mechanics, ambushes, etc. can definitely surprise opponents. This, of course, depends on games having good map design / multiple places for people to hide & flank.

H: While all possible strategies that could be employed by an apposing team may be very familiar the variance here and unpredictability often comes in one player on a team having a very different build/spec then they appeared to. which can change the whole course of play in a match. Deceptivness can be deceptively simple. And, the question is can the apposing team ajdust in time for that one thing they knew could loose them the match if and when it happens.

 


Place Holder Signature.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

4/23/13 10:36:24 AM#27
Originally posted by ShakyMo
It still doesn't exist!

I know, so saying its due to Blizzard and ArenaNet telling everyone it would have balance is pointless. There was no balance before, or after, so it could not have changed the genre's attitude towards PvP.

We have the PvP we have today because of the direction it was being moved towards. There was no one single step taken. Before DaoC, PvP had no structure, it was just there. DaoC was the first game where the Developers took control over it, held players hands and created the reasons and situations for them, it even made it so gear was a factor and gave rewards for doing it not to mantion being the first game where CCing had massive effects taking much of the skill out of PvP.

WoW dropped the closed faction lands and hand holding from 1-50 towards central PvP lands and merely created PvP "instances" allowing players to PvP at earlier levels while unlocking the world to everyone. Personally I would rather have an open world with pvp in an instance than a world cut into 3, closed off and funnelled to the themepark PvP while I level...and they did that after making the game, keeping open world pvp there for everyone.

Either way, it was natural progression, not this massive sudden change.

So, the next time you see me bashing the idea of an IP being used to create another DaoC style game...know that it stems from the FACT that DaoC was the first step in trashing good PvP, and I am an open world PvPer that hates themepark PvP.

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1133

4/23/13 10:40:37 AM#28
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by Maelwydd

RvR is like your typical war between countries. Usually lots of people vs lots of people with the potential for widely ranging skills and abilities. Sometimes tactics, sometimes numbers sometimes skill wins the day.

hahahahahahaa

Hey, are you the Iraqi information minister? Seriously...what is this magical ability of RvR that makes it the only way to have pride and exclusive rights to tactics and skill that non RvR games just plain simple cannot have just because there are no realms...nevermind, the rose colored glasses make it impossible to answer that in a non-biased way.

?

Never mentioned pride.

Never mentioned exclusive rights to tactics or skill.

Simple gave a broad assessment of each type of PvP in my opinion based on my own personal experiences.

So whatever your problem or mental issues are please keep them to yourself.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/23/13 10:45:43 AM#29
Jason
Gw1 and wow were the first games to do instanced pvp.

That's why I mention blizzard and arenanet.

Sure far too many people have cloned that setup since..... but they are the inventors of it, and also the only 2 to push the silly Esports in a mmo idea.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/23/13 10:47:29 AM#30
Also daoc has non instanced battlegrounds for training pvp while you level.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/23/13 10:48:26 AM#31
And ffa pvp servers.
  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1260

 
OP  4/23/13 10:59:16 AM#32
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by Dauzqul

Please help me understand the appeal for such a terrible PvP concept...

 

#1. Everyone looks the same (Everyone of the same class will ultimately be wearing the same PvP gear).

#2. Redundant Gameplay - In order to obtain PvP gear, you must play the same few instances over and over and over again.

#3. What is "Massively Multiplayer" about 10 vs 10 Team Deathmatch, Domination, or Capture the Flag?

#4. Since there are so few instances, the best and obvious strategies are learned by all within the first month. Thus, gameplay becomes a rinse and repeat process.

#5. There is literally zero element of surprise. Everyone is pre-buffed and expecting combat. Everyone knows where the opposition is coming from. Everyone is ready. There is no such thing as an ambush or grand escape. There is no such thing as infiltration.

#6. Immersion Breaking... especially with concepts such as Huttball. Arena PvP ultimately makes the MMO feel dumbed down for children.

 

Instanced PvP is simply Developer Laziness. Instead of actually thinking about how to make a worldly and mature PvP system, developers decide that it's cheaper and easier to make these small instanced PvP zones. They know people will play anything for some type of item reward.

 

I say this with 100% confidence: If rewards were removed from Battlegrounds / Arenas, nobody would play them. Why? Because they are boring.

 Those are all your own personal opinions and I disagree with all of them.  I prefer arena, makes me feel like a gladiator or in rocket arena quake. Also fast paced and quicker than chasing someone down all over the world. 

I've played hardcore FPS for years. In fact, I still play Quake Rocket Arena. Comparing MMO combat to Quake combat is a logical fallacy.

MMOs are supposed to be grand worlds. The genre has taken a gigantic dump and is ultimately paying the price, e.g., all these "big" mmos going under or "free-to-play". There is a reason for it and it's because of half-assed and redundant content (including warzones etc).

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/23/13 11:06:53 AM#33
Well there's more skill involved in a fps than with tab target. Even in fps with progression like Tf2, it matters less as you can use skills to counter it.

Got no problems with match play in a fps.

It's the idea of paying a sub to sit in a city queueing to do pvp, that's over with in 5 minutes and highly dependent on gear and fotm class / build that I have no interest in.

At least with rvr and ffa open world systems strategy, communication, teamwork and morale play more of a role. Twitch skill is probably less, tactics about the same. But then those with true twitch skill shouldn't be playing a wow battleground or whatever, they should be playing cs:go or whatever, a true match of skill.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

4/23/13 11:09:58 AM#34
Originally posted by Dauzqul

MMOs are supposed to be grand worlds. The genre has taken a gigantic dump and is ultimately paying the price, e.g., all these "big" mmos going under or "free-to-play". There is a reason for it and it's because of half-assed and redundant content (including warzones etc).

No. MMOs are not "supposed" to be anything. They are just games responding to market pressure.

And arena e-sport type pvp obvious has a lot of fans, whether you like it or not. Just look at how LoL is successful. It is no surprise that MMOs want a piece of that.

  Ice-Queen

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2434

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

4/23/13 11:17:36 AM#35
OP, I don't get it either. It's boring, repetative, unimaginative crap they keep putting in mmo's because they're too lazy to do open pvp right.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/23/13 11:17:42 AM#36
I'm amazed no ones made a dota / lol type f2p game but that clones wow arena. Surely it would make a fortune, why would people pay a wow sub if they can get the same thing for free, and probably have to queue less with a global match maker.
  Fdzzaigl

Elite Member

Joined: 8/22/09
Posts: 2044

4/23/13 11:22:16 AM#37

I'd like doing it if I had a team of friends over voice chat. Not really for the gear or anything, but just to see how well we could work together to defeat the guys on the other side.

The way it stands now in WoW though, I'm not really comfortable fighting alongside someone who I can't really communicate well with during the fight all the while  relying on the value of the comp / gear to win.

Arena is really stressy, as with all competitive small cale PvP. But you do feel sort of an adrenaline rush from a victory because of that.

Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  DAS1337

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2378

4/23/13 11:25:26 AM#38

It's the generation now mindset.  It's about convenience.  The fastest possible way to kill someone and get gear.  

 

Gone are the days of working for what you get.  Chasing your prey over several zone lines, or effectively escaping from someone who you shouldn't have gotten away from.  Killing or defending for something other than gear is lost on many because it doesn't include a reward.  Everyone today wants to feel like the birthday boy.  They want to feel special.  The best way to feel special for them is to get hollow rewards for a meaningless activity.  They don't recognize that it's meaningless, it's just how they are.  They all cry when they die.  Now you can't even make them run back to their corpse, they can't be bothered by moving.  Now there's LFG and LFD tools that instantly teleport them to their destinations.  And so on and so forth.  As I said, it's all about convenience because people today are crybabies.  It may be an opinion, but it's the right opinion.  If you enjoy arena PvP that has no real reward, that's fine I guess.  Most of these games with PvP arenas have 'I WIN' items in them anyways, so don't try and shove the bullshit down our throats about showing your skill.  The gap between max level players can be insurmountable depending on the gear.  It's just a bad argument.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/23/13 11:30:29 AM#39
^
Yep, agree.

feel like a crochety old git now though.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

4/23/13 11:32:08 AM#40
Originally posted by ShakyMo
I'm amazed no ones made a dota / lol type f2p game but that clones wow arena. Surely it would make a fortune, why would people pay a wow sub if they can get the same thing for free, and probably have to queue less with a global match maker.

On the other hand, isn't Blizz making a DOTA game too?

 

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