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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Why I loved DAOC but am not funding this

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118 posts found
  BowbowDAoC

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 482

4/22/13 9:59:16 AM#41

i really think mmos should all be Niche. mmoprg players ask for so many different things, that besides WoW, wich is the exception, we cannot honestly expect to have everything everyone is expecting from an mmoprg. But since WoW had/has so much success, it falsely became a "standard objective" as well.

Just to mention a few specific subjects that even among CU fans is very debated :

- CC (duration, style of CC etc)

- archers

- stealth

- numbers of classes

- PvP only

- lack of PvE

each of those subjects will have an impact on how may backers / players CU ends up having.

most mmorpg players are the worst kind of players, we have very specific things that if they're or they're not in a game, we simply wont play it. we keep asking for a mmorpg that really fits our needs, but our needs are so specific that no mmorpg can actually offer everything we want.

So...all mmorpgs should be niche, and we should, as players, ask less from one single mmorpg, because frankly we will never have EXACTLY what we want it in a one game only.

So, as far as i am concerned, CU is the closest thing i want from an mmo, not EXACTLY, but close enough for me to pledge, to participate the best i can in its evolution / creation.

If i wait to have the EXACT mmo i want, i'll end up not playing any until i die most likely.

I wont say pledge, i wont say dont pledge, to anyone. but pledge if CU sounds good enough for you to give it a chance, because waiting on the perfect one now THAT would be a waste.

Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR

  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

4/22/13 9:59:58 AM#42

Gamers need to overcome their fabricated desire for an "All-In-One" Wal-Mart superstore gaming experience.  We have certain types of genres for their unique experiences - by definition, it's also a niche, but in a much larger perspective.

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  Sabas

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/05
Posts: 203

This is the sound of me

4/22/13 10:22:10 AM#43
Originally posted by meddyck
 

 Why is it harder to create a lot of classes now than it was 12 years and 2 MMOs ago?

Frankly there's way more non-RvR and user-created content in this game than I would like. If anything, the relative lack of RvR combat compared to DAOC is a better reason to not fund the game.

 

Though I am not a technical man I don't think MJ is talking about the technical aspects when he says that.

 

The people behind the games have gotten a lot  better at making them. Just think Pong was created in 1975.

Thats over 3 decades worth of knowledge and experience. The people buying the games have also grown, perhaps the cost vs qaulity vs the customer is what makes it so hard today. I'm trying to be as concise as possible.

 

I think user-generated content is actually the answer to meaningful Trirealm combat.

I hate the term but themepark comes to mind when I picture a group of people fighting over a static objective.

Do you see what I mean? Nothing either side does will ever have a lasting impact on the world, ever.

The ride will always be available.

 

Now if you add user-generated content into the mix, the means for players to act on their imagination.

An empty canvas suddenly becomes an active living world.

This is what lays the groundwork for a succesful PvP game, a perfect example is EVE wich is not alone in confirming the theory.

 

In short I think by giving crafting so much attention the PvP will have real life.

Real desires, passion, real motivations.

Think of it like this, the crafters will provide the victims of the warrios.

 

edit: Disclaimer, I dont deal in absolutes so don't get hung up on the term themepark. ;) Neither good or bad.

  olepi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 1003

4/22/13 10:23:44 AM#44

I loved DAOC, started at the beginning and got several toons to 50. Also loved the RvR. ToA basically killed it for me, I don't like 8-hour controlled raids, day after day.

Making the game PvP only is like going to get a steak dinner, and being told you cannot get any sides with it. Sure, I like steak, but I'd like to have a salad, potato, and a dessert with that, along with something nice to drink.

I greatly enjoyed the PvE in DAOC, enjoyed the crafting, enjoyed creating many alts to try out all the different classes, or even alts WITHIN the same class. Matter Cabalist plays different than the Spirit Cabalist.

I wish the game and team the best of luck, but I won't contribute anything until the game is released, with good reviews.

------------
RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  Exarchi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/10
Posts: 17

4/22/13 10:33:12 AM#45

I think it's fair to say there are plenty of sides on offer. They're just not your traditional options.

The crafting system, mining, gathering, etc a just some of the options offered so far.

Personally I see a lot of things to keep me busy/entertained. But no game is for everyone.

  Vendac

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 39

4/22/13 10:35:17 AM#46
Originally posted by olepi

I loved DAOC, started at the beginning and got several toons to 50. Also loved the RvR. ToA basically killed it for me, I don't like 8-hour controlled raids, day after day.

Making the game PvP only is like going to get a steak dinner, and being told you cannot get any sides with it. Sure, I like steak, but I'd like to have a salad, potato, and a dessert with that, along with something nice to drink.

I greatly enjoyed the PvE in DAOC, enjoyed the crafting, enjoyed creating many alts to try out all the different classes, or even alts WITHIN the same class. Matter Cabalist plays different than the Spirit Cabalist.

I wish the game and team the best of luck, but I won't contribute anything until the game is released, with good reviews.

Is there anything other than steak? 

I agree with you for the most part other than TOA.  It was just another challenge to overcome.  You said you liked the PvE, well thats all TOA was.  The crafting system is still the best I have seen, and is still relevent to this day in DAOC in spite of all the new fancy equipment that was releaed over the years.

And for the Cabbie, tri-spec for PvP was pure win  :)

You cant fix stupid - Ron White

  olepi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 1003

4/22/13 10:45:16 AM#47
Originally posted by Vendac
Originally posted by olepi

I loved DAOC, started at the beginning and got several toons to 50. Also loved the RvR. ToA basically killed it for me, I don't like 8-hour controlled raids, day after day.

Making the game PvP only is like going to get a steak dinner, and being told you cannot get any sides with it. Sure, I like steak, but I'd like to have a salad, potato, and a dessert with that, along with something nice to drink.

I greatly enjoyed the PvE in DAOC, enjoyed the crafting, enjoyed creating many alts to try out all the different classes, or even alts WITHIN the same class. Matter Cabalist plays different than the Spirit Cabalist.

I wish the game and team the best of luck, but I won't contribute anything until the game is released, with good reviews.

Is there anything other than steak? 

I agree with you for the most part other than TOA.  It was just another challenge to overcome.  You said you liked the PvE, well thats all TOA was.  The crafting system is still the best I have seen, and is still relevent to this day in DAOC in spite of all the new fancy equipment that was releaed over the years.

And for the Cabbie, tri-spec for PvP was pure win  :)

If I was forced to eat only one thing, steak might be it :)

I like games with choice, the more the better. I want to log in and say: "what do I want to do?" PvE? PvP? crafting? exploring? trying out new alts? Fishing? Gambling?

------------
RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  DJMantiss

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 103

4/22/13 10:49:41 AM#48

What the OP said is the same reason myself and many others are not backing this game as well. Mark did DAoC well and that was it. I was there in the WAR beta far too long and while Mark might enjoy pawning off a great deal of failure from that game on EA. The beta forums tell a different story and so amny mistakes were made during the development. Most importantly a lot of promises were made and patch after patch they were taken away.

 

So when he announces yet another RvR focused game, but then tried to go RvR only with no innovations on how or why that would work. Well the numbers speak for themselves. Especially the number of people who are actually backing the kickstarter, not even 10,000 yet and the numbers have been very stagnant since the first few days. 

 

Kickstarters work for great game ideas, it does not do the same for a game so niche that nobody will play it, let alone pay for it monthly.

  Holice

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/08
Posts: 118

4/22/13 11:13:31 AM#49


Originally posted by olepi I like games with choice, the more the better. I want to log in and say: "what do I want to do?" PvE? PvP? crafting? exploring? trying out new alts? Fishing? Gambling?

Variety has always been what kept me in some games longer than others. Games like TOR would have kept me longer if they had a better space simulation. Games like EVE with great ship variety and full blown pvp are great, but if they had actual PvE only sector I would still be subscribed as some times I just want to relax while gaming and not worry about being ganked. And while I do realize that games like EVE are niche, and fanboys will tell you if it was any other way the game would suck, Eve was lucky enough to have backing prior to launch. But if you decide to stay niche you then have to accept that you will never achieve the population and income of Blizzard, or the backing of EA/(Insert some other super company with unlimited funds), because it simply will not draw a big enough crowd for a "reasonable" prediction of return on investment.


Originally posted by DJMantiss Kickstarters work for great game ideas, it does not do the same for a game so niche that nobody will play it, let alone pay for it monthly.
 

Said so well. The kickstarter shows that the interest is simply not what they thought it would be. Even Star Citizen was able to break the 2mil mark and that game was really on the drawing board and pretty darn niche. So while I do hope the game gets made, they really need to do something to attract a broader audience if they are going to make there mark in 9 days.

  DJMantiss

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 103

4/22/13 11:30:39 AM#50
Originally posted by Holice

 


Originally posted by olepi I like games with choice, the more the better. I want to log in and say: "what do I want to do?" PvE? PvP? crafting? exploring? trying out new alts? Fishing? Gambling?

 

Variety has always been what kept me in some games longer than others. Games like TOR would have kept me longer if they had a better space simulation. Games like EVE with great ship variety and full blown pvp are great, but if they had actual PvE only sector I would still be subscribed as some times I just want to relax while gaming and not worry about being ganked. And while I do realize that games like EVE are niche, and fanboys will tell you if it was any other way the game would suck, Eve was lucky enough to have backing prior to launch. But if you decide to stay niche you then have to accept that you will never achieve the population and income of Blizzard, or the backing of EA/(Insert some other super company with unlimited funds), because it simply will not draw a big enough crowd for a "reasonable" prediction of return on investment.

 


Originally posted by DJMantiss Kickstarters work for great game ideas, it does not do the same for a game so niche that nobody will play it, let alone pay for it monthly.
 

 

Said so well. The kickstarter shows that the interest is simply not what they thought it would be. Even Star Citizen was able to break the 2mil mark and that game was really on the drawing board and pretty darn niche. So while I do hope the game gets made, they really need to do something to attract a broader audience if they are going to make there mark in 9 days.

Am I wrong or doesn't Star Citizen continue to draw in money? I swore they were over $8millio now. Which simply proves that people will invest in what they believe in and really desire as a game. <3

  Hjamnr

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/29/13
Posts: 174

4/22/13 11:35:49 AM#51
Originally posted by DJMantiss

What the OP said is the same reason myself and many others are not backing this game as well. Mark did DAoC well and that was it. I was there in the WAR beta far too long and while Mark might enjoy pawning off a great deal of failure from that game on EA. The beta forums tell a different story and so amny mistakes were made during the development. Most importantly a lot of promises were made and patch after patch they were taken away.

 

So when he announces yet another RvR focused game, but then tried to go RvR only with no innovations on how or why that would work. Well the numbers speak for themselves. Especially the number of people who are actually backing the kickstarter, not even 10,000 yet and the numbers have been very stagnant since the first few days. 

 

Kickstarters work for great game ideas, it does not do the same for a game so niche that nobody will play it, let alone pay for it monthly.

Please point me to where Mark Jacobs has said, what you have asserted, in red.

 

  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2114

joie de vivre

4/22/13 11:36:47 AM#52


Originally posted by morfidon

Originally posted by LateBrake1 I play most MMO's and even played DAOC back in the day and really enjoyed it, however I am not backing this project. It seems to me when your going so niche by being PvP only and with a limited class selection it's just not appealing compared to what else is out there. Perhaps it's somewhat because I  (and my friends) are burned out on GW2 world vrs world. The thought of just WvW (or  RvR as they call it) 24/7 would be mind numbing. Had they said 18 classes, 3 realms, PvE zones to fight over, raids, maybe even the ability for user created content, it would have a better chance. Yes I understand they keeping their ambitions small and focused (class wise and gameplay wise) but what's the point if you cant make the game anyway? Why not go big? I enjoy PvP but man everyone needs some variety. I think it's going to take a game that is very well rounded to rise to the top of the MMO world in the future. It would have all those things and more, maybe not done amazingly well at the beginning but at least the prospect of it. I will say GL to MJ though but again, not throwing a bone to the PvE people or including anything new and revolutionary gameplay wise is a decision I would not have made.  
so you say that this:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained/posts/460192

is not revolutionary? lol


/thread

Re-defined building system
Re-defined Crafter Class
Re-defined Stealth Class
Re-defined Tank Class for PVP
Re-defined Open World Dungeon
Re-defined PVE
PVP Focus (never been done well_
Player Economy (not see in ages)
Kickstarted (haven't ever seen an MMO of this type take this route)

If it funds, that alone will change the way companies look at getting an MMO going. I don't see how it isn't revolutionary.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  collekt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/05/13
Posts: 210

4/22/13 11:48:49 AM#53
Originally posted by DJMantiss

What the OP said is the same reason myself and many others are not backing this game as well. Mark did DAoC well and that was it. I was there in the WAR beta far too long and while Mark might enjoy pawning off a great deal of failure from that game on EA. The beta forums tell a different story and so amny mistakes were made during the development. Most importantly a lot of promises were made and patch after patch they were taken away.

 

So when he announces yet another RvR focused game, but then tried to go RvR only with no innovations on how or why that would work. Well the numbers speak for themselves. Especially the number of people who are actually backing the kickstarter, not even 10,000 yet and the numbers have been very stagnant since the first few days. 

 

Kickstarters work for great game ideas, it does not do the same for a game so niche that nobody will play it, let alone pay for it monthly.

"Another RvR focused game with no innovations"... really? I can't tell if you're just trolling or not paying any attention to their updates. They are innovating in a lot of big ways, the building system being one of the big ones. The building system he just talked about in a recent update is a huge reason the RvR will be meaningful and the experience will not always be the same. If this isn't innovation, I don't know what is. And I won't even talk about The Depths, because that speaks for itself. If you're not into the idea of CU, that's fine.. but don't try to say they aren't innovating at all. 

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

4/22/13 12:13:34 PM#54
Originally posted by LateBrake1

I play most MMO's and even played DAOC back in the day and really enjoyed it, however I am not backing this project. It seems to me when your going so niche by being PvP only and with a limited class selection it's just not appealing compared to what else is out there.

Perhaps it's somewhat because I  (and my friends) are burned out on GW2 world vrs world. The thought of just WvW (or  RvR as they call it) 24/7 would be mind numbing.

Had they said 18 classes, 3 realms, PvE zones to fight over, raids, maybe even the ability for user created content, it would have a better chance. Yes I understand they keeping their ambitions small and focused (class wise and gameplay wise) but what's the point if you cant make the game anyway? Why not go big? I enjoy PvP but man everyone needs some variety.

I think it's going to take a game that is very well rounded to rise to the top of the MMO world in the future. It would have all those things and more, maybe not done amazingly well at the beginning but at least the prospect of it.

I will say GL to MJ though but again, not throwing a bone to the PvE people or including anything new and revolutionary gameplay wise is a decision I would not have made.

 

Finally, a negative thread that is not a complete troll!  Thank you for restoring some faith in humanity!

I'd say your concerns are entirely legitimate.  My only comment would be (I know it's getting tired) this might not be the game for you.  MJ has made clear, over and over and over again, the game will be for a NICHE RVR MARKET.  He is not concerned with "rising to the top of the MMO world."  Again, this has been made very, very clear many, many, many times.

I may be misinterpretting your post, but it seems to me you are not a huge RvR fan. 

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/22/13 12:20:23 PM#55
Originally posted by olepi

I loved DAOC, started at the beginning and got several toons to 50. Also loved the RvR. ToA basically killed it for me, I don't like 8-hour controlled raids, day after day.

Making the game PvP only is like going to get a steak dinner, and being told you cannot get any sides with it. Sure, I like steak, but I'd like to have a salad, potato, and a dessert with that, along with something nice to drink.

I greatly enjoyed the PvE in DAOC, enjoyed the crafting, enjoyed creating many alts to try out all the different classes, or even alts WITHIN the same class. Matter Cabalist plays different than the Spirit Cabalist.

I wish the game and team the best of luck, but I won't contribute anything until the game is released, with good reviews.

This is a good discription of some concerns of mine +1

I liked the SI raids, they should have been shorter, but they wern't necessary at all unless you enjoyed it or were min maxing a hybrid template out.

Dragon raids were awesome, having a whole land where you could level and grow through and then venturing into RvR was a beautiful system for everyone except the even more "niche" people who want to invade other realms and loot corpses ( think that type of system is a complete failure for mmo )

I can live with just PVP and if the combat system is good I will enjoy it, but I don't have nearly enough information about it, and how spec / skill lines within classes are going to be? I'm sure they're saving all that stuff for the end of the kickstarter, but I hope its good else off to pray ESO won't suck.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

4/22/13 12:22:27 PM#56
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112
[mod edit]

Well, you can't really go under zero when taking about chances. But i'll take it as if you said there is not a chance in a million.

So how can i tell you we are pretty sure to have what we are expecting? I think i can't speak for everyone, as some may effectively not get what they expect, but as for myself, i read and have taken note of every foundational principle and KS update. I therefore know the general boon and bane of the concept.

 

Now the only thing you may ask are details. On that point, i will first advise you to wait the next update that'll come later this week, and we should have a lot of info about the actual RvR. Secondly, i'll tell you than most details that you couldn't find are lacking because they will be discussed in the backers' forum and so will largely be influenced by the future players.

 

So unless you have really different tastes than most of the other players, i think you'll like how most of those details will turn out. Of course, there will be some thing you won't like because only a small part of us don't like it and the majority win, but it would be unlikely to always be on that side.

  Excession

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/06
Posts: 361

Political correctness is tyranny with manners

4/22/13 12:26:20 PM#57
Originally posted by Tierless

 


Originally posted by morfidon

Originally posted by LateBrake1 I play most MMO's and even played DAOC back in the day and really enjoyed it, however I am not backing this project. It seems to me when your going so niche by being PvP only and with a limited class selection it's just not appealing compared to what else is out there. Perhaps it's somewhat because I  (and my friends) are burned out on GW2 world vrs world. The thought of just WvW (or  RvR as they call it) 24/7 would be mind numbing. Had they said 18 classes, 3 realms, PvE zones to fight over, raids, maybe even the ability for user created content, it would have a better chance. Yes I understand they keeping their ambitions small and focused (class wise and gameplay wise) but what's the point if you cant make the game anyway? Why not go big? I enjoy PvP but man everyone needs some variety. I think it's going to take a game that is very well rounded to rise to the top of the MMO world in the future. It would have all those things and more, maybe not done amazingly well at the beginning but at least the prospect of it. I will say GL to MJ though but again, not throwing a bone to the PvE people or including anything new and revolutionary gameplay wise is a decision I would not have made.  
so you say that this:

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained/posts/460192

is not revolutionary? lol


 

/thread

Re-defined building system
Re-defined Crafter Class
Re-defined Stealth Class
Re-defined Tank Class for PVP
Re-defined Open World Dungeon
Re-defined PVE
PVP Focus (never been done well_
Player Economy (not see in ages)
Kickstarted (haven't ever seen an MMO of this type take this route)

If it funds, that alone will change the way companies look at getting an MMO going. I don't see how it isn't revolutionary.

Originally posted on kickstarter
 

Camelot Unchained is a counter-revolutionary RvR-focused MMORPG from Mark Jacobs and CSE set in a post-apocalyptic yet familiar world.

Since it is nothing but a list of idea's at this point, it has actually only done one of the things you listed, which is being kickstarted

/Thread

A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/22/13 12:26:37 PM#58

Question for everyone ...

 

If this funds and they start building ...

And then EA sells mythic and they start to design DAOC 2, what happens to population of CU?

I can dream.

 

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/22/13 12:30:45 PM#59
There's no "daoc people" at mythic anymore. Any daoc 2 whether under ea or not would likely be a lame wow clone.
  dennis5

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 23

4/22/13 12:32:10 PM#60
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Question for everyone ...

 

If this funds and they start building ...

And then EA sells mythic and they start to design DAOC 2, what happens to population of CU?

I can dream.

 

Do not forget the in-game shop (EA). Then what happens? 

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