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Darkfall: Unholy Wars

Darkfall: Unholy Wars 

General Discussion  » My sig sums up this game if you think this is sandbox....

3 Pages « 1 2 3 » Search
50 posts found
  Deerhunter71

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/25/05
Posts: 554

 
OP  4/21/13 10:40:39 AM#21

Darkfall's grind is kill 150 mobs for X prowess. in other MMO's we call that themepark and stupid. In Darkfall it is called "sandbox" and a brilliant system. Go figure, lol......

 

LOL best post yet on DF forums - lol

 

UW combat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7JHbhxSm3E


DF1 Combat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svGmTHiU_tg

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2868

4/21/13 10:42:46 AM#22
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Greymoor
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Prem

Aren't you tired to make negative threads about this particular game?

There are tons of different ways to get prowess, not just kill X mobs. You can get it by exploring, crafting, PVP, gathering, pretty much everything.

And in no other game you can find clans fighting over territory control, own cities, alliances forming, spies and generally the whole array of possibilities that darkfall politics offers

No other game?

 

EvE is a great game for anyone who enjoys deep crafting/politics/harsh rule sets BUT spaceships aren't for everyone.
The combat and leveling system in EvE isn't for everyone.

Some won't enjoy clicking a button and watching their spaceship fire missiles for 5 minutes and others enjoy the prospect of never being able to be on equal footing v.s. a veteran player. A lot of players won't enjoy the 5-6 month wait before entering any T2 ship.

DFUW offers FPS combat, not enjoyed by everyone but enjoyed by the niche. Real meaning for crafters, no mob dropped gear. Player built cities, boats, houses. Full loot rule set with some safe zones.

The biggest difference between DFUW and EvE though has to be playing from the perspective of a person running around and actively dodged/aiming.

 

If in EVE PVP you click a button and wait then good sir you must've been playing another game. If you think tech 2 ships are a target you will wait but with the full tilt tiercide still going the power gaps between techs of ships is going down and some of the best price/bang ships nowadays are tech 1 cruisers :). Also if you think you'll never be on an equal footing with someone in EVE you will never be, it's your psychological block which makes you be inferior not the game (in the game there are few skills you will ever need to max out to be a capable fighter). True if you stand and click and the other guy with better skills then you stands and clicks you will lose but in EVE no one who pvps stands and clicks buttons, they play transversal velocities, dance underneath the tracking arcs of bigger guns, use electronic warfare to make themselves a harder target to hit, brute force into an enemy and discharge point blank palsma weapons for insane amounts of damage,etc.

 

The only point you were right in (objectively) was that spaceships is not for everyone, in all other aspects you were either partially or completely wrong and it is likely due to inexperience with the game.

there was a  total of 1667 skill ranks back in 2011. Each rank was 256,000 SP and the maximum skill points was 426,752,000.

at 2700 SP/hour, it would take about 18 years to learn all skills to level 5.

at 2100 SP/hour, it would take 23.2 years to learn all skills to level 5.

Who's ready to click and wait for 18-23 years to max out their characters? ( I've got a long way to go... *starts up a new account*)

Oh and by the way, if someone has played this game non-stop for the amount of time this game existed. They will always be better than you. Especially if those veterans have been playing for all 10 years.

 

I don't think there is anyone who has played non-stop for the last 10 years. Also your logic is on par with a elementary school's student right now, I have 7 years of experience in EVE, I can fit most sub-capital ships to their best potential (with my skillset) on the fly (excluding gallente ships, I can't even begin to make those work for some reason) but that person I mentioned in my last post who is barely in their 2nd year of EVE trumps me in PVP ability, I am more versatile due to having more paths open to me, the respective person has less but kicks my ass regardless, that's all the difference training in EVE does after you've reached "as good as it gets without going muy loco" flying a ship skills-wise (the only people who go muy loco are the ones who've hit their plateau in goal terms).

Your math isn't wrong btw but your application of it is... really bad.

 Oh ignorance is utterly bliss with you isn't it? You've got 7 years behind your belt and don't know that you'll always be better than a new player. That's just too funny! Your inability to comprehend how the game works is beyond funny. It's actually quite sad to hear from a 7 year vet that you can't handle a noobie who has only played for 2 years and so I say to each their own.

 However, my statement still stands a player will always be better than someone who has just started. That's all there is to it. You should by 7 years have  ~2/5 of the skills aquired by now. Which means your character is in every way possible better than that 2 year newbie (no offense).

There is a fundamental flaw with your reasoning, which is probably why you don't understand Eve, something that is clearly evident from your arguments, which are nonsensical at best. I am a 9 year vet of Eve, been playing since, feb 2004, though i have taken a few breaks, currently running at 95m sp, and no, that doesnt make me godlike at PVP, anything but, PVP in Eve will always be governed by the players own tactical ability, nobody, can fit every single mod on their ship to give an overall superiority in every area, its just not possible and the game is not designed that way, and while you may be able to fit for optimum performance on missions, where the npc's are a known quantity, in pvp that is just not possible, until you at least understand why that is the case, then you really dont know Eve. Have to wonder though why DF players seem to feel that Eve is such a threat to their game that they try to mislead others about it, though whether its through ignorance or desperation, i really don't know.

 Where did I ever state that you'll have godly superiority over another player?

I simply said you'll be better in which case I'm right. You should have better everything. If you cannot understand this logic then there's something wrong with you. If you cannot properly play your account and use your knowledge of the game to your advantage than that's sad. However, your character will always be better.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5514

4/21/13 10:43:31 AM#23
Originally posted by Deerhunter71
Darkfall's grind is kill 150 mobs for X prowess. in other MMO's we call that themepark and stupid. In Darkfall it is called "sandbox" and a brilliant system. Go figure, lol......

that was a silly argument the first time you used it, repeating it didnt make it any less silly or any more valid. If you are going to criticise the game at least make an effort to use a decent argument to support it.

  Deerhunter71

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/25/05
Posts: 554

 
OP  4/21/13 10:45:29 AM#24
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Deerhunter71
Darkfall's grind is kill 150 mobs for X prowess. in other MMO's we call that themepark and stupid. In Darkfall it is called "sandbox" and a brilliant system. Go figure, lol......

that was a silly argument the first time you used it, repeating it didnt make it any less silly or any more valid. If you are going to criticise the game at least make an effort to use a decent argument to support it.

Yeet it is so right though...  Kill those 150 mobs for that "xp" uh huh......

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5514

4/21/13 10:46:42 AM#25
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Greymoor
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Prem

Aren't you tired to make negative threads about this particular game?

There are tons of different ways to get prowess, not just kill X mobs. You can get it by exploring, crafting, PVP, gathering, pretty much everything.

And in no other game you can find clans fighting over territory control, own cities, alliances forming, spies and generally the whole array of possibilities that darkfall politics offers

No other game?

 

EvE is a great game for anyone who enjoys deep crafting/politics/harsh rule sets BUT spaceships aren't for everyone.
The combat and leveling system in EvE isn't for everyone.

Some won't enjoy clicking a button and watching their spaceship fire missiles for 5 minutes and others enjoy the prospect of never being able to be on equal footing v.s. a veteran player. A lot of players won't enjoy the 5-6 month wait before entering any T2 ship.

DFUW offers FPS combat, not enjoyed by everyone but enjoyed by the niche. Real meaning for crafters, no mob dropped gear. Player built cities, boats, houses. Full loot rule set with some safe zones.

The biggest difference between DFUW and EvE though has to be playing from the perspective of a person running around and actively dodged/aiming.

 

If in EVE PVP you click a button and wait then good sir you must've been playing another game. If you think tech 2 ships are a target you will wait but with the full tilt tiercide still going the power gaps between techs of ships is going down and some of the best price/bang ships nowadays are tech 1 cruisers :). Also if you think you'll never be on an equal footing with someone in EVE you will never be, it's your psychological block which makes you be inferior not the game (in the game there are few skills you will ever need to max out to be a capable fighter). True if you stand and click and the other guy with better skills then you stands and clicks you will lose but in EVE no one who pvps stands and clicks buttons, they play transversal velocities, dance underneath the tracking arcs of bigger guns, use electronic warfare to make themselves a harder target to hit, brute force into an enemy and discharge point blank palsma weapons for insane amounts of damage,etc.

 

The only point you were right in (objectively) was that spaceships is not for everyone, in all other aspects you were either partially or completely wrong and it is likely due to inexperience with the game.

there was a  total of 1667 skill ranks back in 2011. Each rank was 256,000 SP and the maximum skill points was 426,752,000.

at 2700 SP/hour, it would take about 18 years to learn all skills to level 5.

at 2100 SP/hour, it would take 23.2 years to learn all skills to level 5.

Who's ready to click and wait for 18-23 years to max out their characters? ( I've got a long way to go... *starts up a new account*)

Oh and by the way, if someone has played this game non-stop for the amount of time this game existed. They will always be better than you. Especially if those veterans have been playing for all 10 years.

 

I don't think there is anyone who has played non-stop for the last 10 years. Also your logic is on par with a elementary school's student right now, I have 7 years of experience in EVE, I can fit most sub-capital ships to their best potential (with my skillset) on the fly (excluding gallente ships, I can't even begin to make those work for some reason) but that person I mentioned in my last post who is barely in their 2nd year of EVE trumps me in PVP ability, I am more versatile due to having more paths open to me, the respective person has less but kicks my ass regardless, that's all the difference training in EVE does after you've reached "as good as it gets without going muy loco" flying a ship skills-wise (the only people who go muy loco are the ones who've hit their plateau in goal terms).

Your math isn't wrong btw but your application of it is... really bad.

 Oh ignorance is utterly bliss with you isn't it? You've got 7 years behind your belt and don't know that you'll always be better than a new player. That's just too funny! Your inability to comprehend how the game works is beyond funny. It's actually quite sad to hear from a 7 year vet that you can't handle a noobie who has only played for 2 years and so I say to each their own.

 However, my statement still stands a player will always be better than someone who has just started. That's all there is to it. You should by 7 years have  ~2/5 of the skills aquired by now. Which means your character is in every way possible better than that 2 year newbie (no offense).

There is a fundamental flaw with your reasoning, which is probably why you don't understand Eve, something that is clearly evident from your arguments, which are nonsensical at best. I am a 9 year vet of Eve, been playing since, feb 2004, though i have taken a few breaks, currently running at 95m sp, and no, that doesnt make me godlike at PVP, anything but, PVP in Eve will always be governed by the players own tactical ability, nobody, can fit every single mod on their ship to give an overall superiority in every area, its just not possible and the game is not designed that way, and while you may be able to fit for optimum performance on missions, where the npc's are a known quantity, in pvp that is just not possible, until you at least understand why that is the case, then you really dont know Eve. Have to wonder though why DF players seem to feel that Eve is such a threat to their game that they try to mislead others about it, though whether its through ignorance or desperation, i really don't know.

 Where did I ever state that you'll have godly superiority over another player?

I simply said you'll be better in which case I'm right. You should have better everything. If you cannot understand this logic then there's something wrong with you. If you cannot properly play your account and use your knowledge of the game to your advantage than that's sad. However, your character will always be better.

do you think in 9 years i havent learned to play the game? if you can point out how im doing it wrong then i am literally all ears.  just show me this uber ship fitting that you have in mind that us vets are supposed to win every fight with and i'll go buy it and give it a test

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2868

4/21/13 10:46:53 AM#26
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Deerhunter71
Darkfall's grind is kill 150 mobs for X prowess. in other MMO's we call that themepark and stupid. In Darkfall it is called "sandbox" and a brilliant system. Go figure, lol......

that was a silly argument the first time you used it, repeating it didnt make it any less silly or any more valid. If you are going to criticise the game at least make an effort to use a decent argument to support it.

 I have to agree, it's not the questing in a game that makes the experience a themepark/sandbox. it's the ability to choose whether or not you're able to do much more than just that. 


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Deerhunter71

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/25/05
Posts: 554

 
OP  4/21/13 10:47:52 AM#27
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Deerhunter71
Darkfall's grind is kill 150 mobs for X prowess. in other MMO's we call that themepark and stupid. In Darkfall it is called "sandbox" and a brilliant system. Go figure, lol......

that was a silly argument the first time you used it, repeating it didnt make it any less silly or any more valid. If you are going to criticise the game at least make an effort to use a decent argument to support it.

 I have to agree, it's not the questing in a game that makes the experience a themepark/sandbox. it's the ability to choose whether or not you're able to do much more than just that. 

And sadly there is not.  You cannot build anything at all or place your house anywhere except where AV tells you that you can.  They dictate it all and where.    

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2868

4/21/13 10:48:46 AM#28
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
I don't think there is anyone who has played non-stop for the last 10 years. Also your logic is on par with a elementary school's student right now, I have 7 years of experience in EVE, I can fit most sub-capital ships to their best potential (with my skillset) on the fly (excluding gallente ships, I can't even begin to make those work for some reason) but that person I mentioned in my last post who is barely in their 2nd year of EVE trumps me in PVP ability, I am more versatile due to having more paths open to me, the respective person has less but kicks my ass regardless, that's all the difference training in EVE does after you've reached "as good as it gets without going muy loco" flying a ship skills-wise (the only people who go muy loco are the ones who've hit their plateau in goal terms).

Your math isn't wrong btw but your application of it is... really bad.

 Oh ignorance is utterly bliss with you isn't it? You've got 7 years behind your belt and don't know that you'll always be better than a new player. That's just too funny! Your inability to comprehend how the game works is beyond funny. It's actually quite sad to hear from a 7 year vet that you can't handle a noobie who has only played for 2 years and so I say to each their own.

 However, my statement still stands a player will always be better than someone who has just started. That's all there is to it. You should by 7 years have  ~2/5 of the skills aquired by now. Which means your character is in every way possible better than that 2 year newbie (no offense).

There is a fundamental flaw with your reasoning, which is probably why you don't understand Eve, something that is clearly evident from your arguments, which are nonsensical at best. I am a 9 year vet of Eve, been playing since, feb 2004, though i have taken a few breaks, currently running at 95m sp, and no, that doesnt make me godlike at PVP, anything but, PVP in Eve will always be governed by the players own tactical ability, nobody, can fit every single mod on their ship to give an overall superiority in every area, its just not possible and the game is not designed that way, and while you may be able to fit for optimum performance on missions, where the npc's are a known quantity, in pvp that is just not possible, until you at least understand why that is the case, then you really dont know Eve. Have to wonder though why DF players seem to feel that Eve is such a threat to their game that they try to mislead others about it, though whether its through ignorance or desperation, i really don't know.

 Where did I ever state that you'll have godly superiority over another player?

I simply said you'll be better in which case I'm right. You should have better everything. If you cannot understand this logic then there's something wrong with you. If you cannot properly play your account and use your knowledge of the game to your advantage than that's sad. However, your character will always be better.

do you think in 9 years i havent learned to play the game? if you can point out how im doing it wrong then i am literally all ears.  just show me this uber ship fitting that you have in mind that us vets are supposed to win every fight with and i'll go buy it and give it a test

 Still trying to figure out where you think I'm stating that you have the most godly tools available. Anyways you've ingored my point completely. This post is getting too long I'm shortening it.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2868

4/21/13 10:50:24 AM#29
Originally posted by Deerhunter71
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Deerhunter71
Darkfall's grind is kill 150 mobs for X prowess. in other MMO's we call that themepark and stupid. In Darkfall it is called "sandbox" and a brilliant system. Go figure, lol......

that was a silly argument the first time you used it, repeating it didnt make it any less silly or any more valid. If you are going to criticise the game at least make an effort to use a decent argument to support it.

 I have to agree, it's not the questing in a game that makes the experience a themepark/sandbox. it's the ability to choose whether or not you're able to do much more than just that. 

And sadly there is not.  You cannot build anything at all or place your house anywhere except where AV tells you that you can.  

 However, you can build ships, build homes (while not anywhere you're still able to do so), PvP, PvE, Quest, gathering, and crafting, or just explore. There is more freedom in this game than there are in themepark MMO's.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Ayulin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 344

4/21/13 10:52:48 AM#30
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Phry
 

There is a fundamental flaw with your reasoning, which is probably why you don't understand Eve, something that is clearly evident from your arguments, which are nonsensical at best. I am a 9 year vet of Eve, been playing since, feb 2004, though i have taken a few breaks, currently running at 95m sp, and no, that doesnt make me godlike at PVP, anything but, PVP in Eve will always be governed by the players own tactical ability, nobody, can fit every single mod on their ship to give an overall superiority in every area, its just not possible and the game is not designed that way, and while you may be able to fit for optimum performance on missions, where the npc's are a known quantity, in pvp that is just not possible, until you at least understand why that is the case, then you really dont know Eve. Have to wonder though why DF players seem to feel that Eve is such a threat to their game that they try to mislead others about it, though whether its through ignorance or desperation, i really don't know.

 Where did I ever state that you'll have godly superiority over another player?

I simply said you'll be better in which case I'm right. You should have better everything. If you cannot understand this logic then there's something wrong with you. If you cannot properly play your account and use your knowledge of the game to your advantage than that's sad. However, your character will always be better.

Are you just deliberately missing the point being made by now? Dancing around it?

You're splitting hairs, at the very least. Replace the term "better" with "more flexible" and you'd be more "on point". But more flexible does not automatically mean "better".  And even then, it's dubious. A player may have changed career choices throughout their time playing. They may have wasted a lot of time training up skills they thought would be important, but ended up being useless to them. They may have tried out different playstyles 'til they found the one they liked. They may have tons of SP in ships/buildouts they don't even use anymore.

As has been explained, how long you've played Eve and how many SP you've accumulated only indicates how much flexibility you have in the game; how many ships you can fly, what kind of buildouts you can use, etc. More SP = More Flexibility. And "more flexible" is not synonymous with "better player". Your attempt to say "well your character is clearly better" is completely pointless. In the context of how Eve is setup and how it works, it's a non-argument.

There's only so far skill points will take you.

Let's say two players get into a fight.

One has been playing for 8 years and has (just an arbitrary number) 90 million SP.

One has been playing only 2 years and has only 20 million (again, arbitrary number).

Both have the same amount of points into the same exact ship, same techs and are using the same build-out. Let's say, it's a 100k SP buildout (agai, arbitrary number).

SP wise, those two players are exactly the same at that time, in those ships. That one was playing 6 years longer means nothing. It doesn't matter that the 8 year vet has 70 million more SP into their character, because at that point they're only making use of the 100k required to pilot and equip the ship and buildout they're using. The other 89,900,000 SP they have is doing absolutely nothing for them.

At that point, it comes down to who has better command of their ship and is a better tactician. If the 8 year vet hasn't had as much time or practice in their current buildout, but the 2 year player has had lots of training in it, then yes, it's quite possible the 2 year player can wipe the floor with the 8 year vet.

How long either player has been playing has absolutely nothing to do with it.

The problem people have with not understanding Eve is that they keep trying to think of it in terms of other MMOs that work on entirely linear progression... as in time = progression = power. Where a level 50 will always beat a level 10.  It doesn't work that way in Eve. Not at all.

 

 

 

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2868

4/21/13 10:57:13 AM#31
Originally posted by Ayulin
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Phry
 

There is a fundamental flaw with your reasoning, which is probably why you don't understand Eve, something that is clearly evident from your arguments, which are nonsensical at best. I am a 9 year vet of Eve, been playing since, feb 2004, though i have taken a few breaks, currently running at 95m sp, and no, that doesnt make me godlike at PVP, anything but, PVP in Eve will always be governed by the players own tactical ability, nobody, can fit every single mod on their ship to give an overall superiority in every area, its just not possible and the game is not designed that way, and while you may be able to fit for optimum performance on missions, where the npc's are a known quantity, in pvp that is just not possible, until you at least understand why that is the case, then you really dont know Eve. Have to wonder though why DF players seem to feel that Eve is such a threat to their game that they try to mislead others about it, though whether its through ignorance or desperation, i really don't know.

 Where did I ever state that you'll have godly superiority over another player?

I simply said you'll be better in which case I'm right. You should have better everything. If you cannot understand this logic then there's something wrong with you. If you cannot properly play your account and use your knowledge of the game to your advantage than that's sad. However, your character will always be better.

Are you just deliberately missing the point being made at this point? Dancing around it?

You're splitting hairs, at the very least. Replace the term "better" with "more flexible" and you'd be more "on point". But more flexible does not automatically mean "better".  And even then, it's dubious. A player may have changed career choices throughout their time playing. They may have tons of SP in ships/buildouts they don't even use anymore.

As has been explained, how long you've played Eve and how many SP you've accumulated only indicates how much flexibility you have in the game; how many ships you can fly, what kind of buildouts you can use, etc.

There's only so far skill points will take you.

Let's say two players get into a fight.

One has been playing for 8 years and has (just an arbitrary number) 90 million SP.

One has been playing only 2 years and has only 20 million (again, arbitrary number).

Both have the same amount of points into the same exact ship, same techs and are using the same build-out. Let's say, it's a 100k SP buildout (agai, arbitrary number).

SP wise, those two players are exactly the same at that time, in those ships. That one was playing 6 years longer means nothing. It doesn't matter that the 8 year vet has 70 million more SP into their character, because at that point they're only making use of the 100k required to pilot and equip the ship and buildout they're using. The other 89,900,000 SP they have is doing absolutely nothing for them.

At that point, it comes down to who has better command of their ship and is a better tactician. If the 8 year vet hasn't had as much time or practice in their current buildout, but the 2 year player has had lots of training in it, then yes, it's quite possible the 2 year player can wipe the floor with the 8 year vet.

How long either player has been playing has absolutely nothing to do with it.

The problem people have with not understanding Eve is that they keep trying to think of it in terms of other MMOs that work on entirely linear progression... as in time = progression = power. Where a level 50 will always beat a level 10.  It doesn't work that way in Eve. Not at all.

 

 

 

 Length in time also adds experience with the player themselves, they should be able to out wit the opposing player and no matter how much you dance around this subject. Someone with 6 years more experience at the game will be better. Of course, don't add to the equation that the 6 year veteran has been dicking around just to prove me wrong. Otherwise you're still avoiding my points completely.

 My point still stands at which a character with 70 million more SP is better than the player with 20 million. They have more skills backing them making them better in every aspect. You're taking my posts out of context with what I'm actually saying. A player who has 90 million SP is better in everyother aspect than someone with only 20 million SP. If that 1 player has just enough to gear towards just one small instance of PvP he's only decent in that one small instance of PvP. That leaves him weak in every other area within the game.

 Making the 8 year veteran better than a 2 year newcomer.

 Lets make an example:

You're an employer hiring for your company and you're looking for a computer engineer with a minimum of 2 years experience. The starting pay for the potential employee will be $30.00 hourly.

Two people apply for the job. Both of which are qualified.

one is 30 years old and has 8 years of experience in the field.

The other is 30 years old and has 2 years of experience in the field.

Which one will you choose?

 

My best bet would easily be the guy with 8 years experience. They have more knowledge and skills to offer for the company.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Ayulin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 344

4/21/13 11:07:06 AM#32
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Ayulin
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Phry
 

There is a fundamental flaw with your reasoning, which is probably why you don't understand Eve, something that is clearly evident from your arguments, which are nonsensical at best. I am a 9 year vet of Eve, been playing since, feb 2004, though i have taken a few breaks, currently running at 95m sp, and no, that doesnt make me godlike at PVP, anything but, PVP in Eve will always be governed by the players own tactical ability, nobody, can fit every single mod on their ship to give an overall superiority in every area, its just not possible and the game is not designed that way, and while you may be able to fit for optimum performance on missions, where the npc's are a known quantity, in pvp that is just not possible, until you at least understand why that is the case, then you really dont know Eve. Have to wonder though why DF players seem to feel that Eve is such a threat to their game that they try to mislead others about it, though whether its through ignorance or desperation, i really don't know.

 Where did I ever state that you'll have godly superiority over another player?

I simply said you'll be better in which case I'm right. You should have better everything. If you cannot understand this logic then there's something wrong with you. If you cannot properly play your account and use your knowledge of the game to your advantage than that's sad. However, your character will always be better.

Are you just deliberately missing the point being made at this point? Dancing around it?

You're splitting hairs, at the very least. Replace the term "better" with "more flexible" and you'd be more "on point". But more flexible does not automatically mean "better".  And even then, it's dubious. A player may have changed career choices throughout their time playing. They may have tons of SP in ships/buildouts they don't even use anymore.

As has been explained, how long you've played Eve and how many SP you've accumulated only indicates how much flexibility you have in the game; how many ships you can fly, what kind of buildouts you can use, etc.

There's only so far skill points will take you.

Let's say two players get into a fight.

One has been playing for 8 years and has (just an arbitrary number) 90 million SP.

One has been playing only 2 years and has only 20 million (again, arbitrary number).

Both have the same amount of points into the same exact ship, same techs and are using the same build-out. Let's say, it's a 100k SP buildout (agai, arbitrary number).

SP wise, those two players are exactly the same at that time, in those ships. That one was playing 6 years longer means nothing. It doesn't matter that the 8 year vet has 70 million more SP into their character, because at that point they're only making use of the 100k required to pilot and equip the ship and buildout they're using. The other 89,900,000 SP they have is doing absolutely nothing for them.

At that point, it comes down to who has better command of their ship and is a better tactician. If the 8 year vet hasn't had as much time or practice in their current buildout, but the 2 year player has had lots of training in it, then yes, it's quite possible the 2 year player can wipe the floor with the 8 year vet.

How long either player has been playing has absolutely nothing to do with it.

The problem people have with not understanding Eve is that they keep trying to think of it in terms of other MMOs that work on entirely linear progression... as in time = progression = power. Where a level 50 will always beat a level 10.  It doesn't work that way in Eve. Not at all.

 

 

 

 Length in time also adds experience with the player themselves, they should be able to out wit the opposing player and no matter how much you dance around this subject. Someone with 6 years more experience at the game will be better. Of course, don't add to the equation that the 6 year veteran has been dicking around just to prove me wrong. Otherwise you're still avoiding my points completely.

No. Wrong.

A player should be able to out-wit and out-play another player in the specific builds and playstyles they have practiced and gained experience in.

That's like saying someone who's played a game for 8 years, but played only Warrior and Rogue classes should automatically be able to pick up a Sorcerer and be better than another player who's played only two years, but played nothing but Sorcerer the entire time. Because after all, they have 6 years more experience in the game!

Players gain experience and skill in what they are actively doing. You don't automatically become "better at everything" just because you've been around the game longer. You accrue skill points in a completely passive manner in Eve. You don't earn them by "doing", you earn them by "studying". It's the application of those SPs that counts.

Actually... Henry Rollins has a great quote that sums up the point perfectly: "Knowledge without milage is bullshit". That's the SP setup in Eve in relation to "player skill".

And of course, some players are just naturally better at certain playstyles than others, so that comes into play.

I understand what you're trying to say. What I'm trying to say is that your point is completely moot in Eve. Saying 'my character is better because I'm playing for 8 years and have 70 million more SP than you" means absolutely squat.  It doesn't matter. What matters is how skillfully can you use those SPs against other players.

It's like saying someone's been doing art for 8 years, and has gathered all kinds of books on the subject and learned about a lot of different mediums and styles. Meanwhile, someone else has only been into art for 2 years and hasn't accumulated as much, but has focused on one or two specific styles their entire time.

By your logic, the person with 8 years should automatically be the better artist because they "know more".

Meanwhile, when looking at each person's work side-by-side, the two year artist's work - technique, composition, etc - makes the 8 year artist's work look amateur. Using your logic, you'd be saying "it doesn't matter that the 2 year artist demonstrates superior skill with their knowledge. The 8 year vet is still better because they know more".

You're taking a complete non-issue and attempting to build some substantial argument around it. In doing so, you are either being deliberately obtuse, or you're demonstrating a distinct lack of understanding of how Eve works.

 

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2868

4/21/13 11:11:25 AM#33
Originally posted by Ayulin
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Ayulin
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by Phry
 

There is a fundamental flaw with your reasoning, which is probably why you don't understand Eve, something that is clearly evident from your arguments, which are nonsensical at best. I am a 9 year vet of Eve, been playing since, feb 2004, though i have taken a few breaks, currently running at 95m sp, and no, that doesnt make me godlike at PVP, anything but, PVP in Eve will always be governed by the players own tactical ability, nobody, can fit every single mod on their ship to give an overall superiority in every area, its just not possible and the game is not designed that way, and while you may be able to fit for optimum performance on missions, where the npc's are a known quantity, in pvp that is just not possible, until you at least understand why that is the case, then you really dont know Eve. Have to wonder though why DF players seem to feel that Eve is such a threat to their game that they try to mislead others about it, though whether its through ignorance or desperation, i really don't know.

 Where did I ever state that you'll have godly superiority over another player?

I simply said you'll be better in which case I'm right. You should have better everything. If you cannot understand this logic then there's something wrong with you. If you cannot properly play your account and use your knowledge of the game to your advantage than that's sad. However, your character will always be better.

Are you just deliberately missing the point being made at this point? Dancing around it?

You're splitting hairs, at the very least. Replace the term "better" with "more flexible" and you'd be more "on point". But more flexible does not automatically mean "better".  And even then, it's dubious. A player may have changed career choices throughout their time playing. They may have tons of SP in ships/buildouts they don't even use anymore.

As has been explained, how long you've played Eve and how many SP you've accumulated only indicates how much flexibility you have in the game; how many ships you can fly, what kind of buildouts you can use, etc.

There's only so far skill points will take you.

Let's say two players get into a fight.

One has been playing for 8 years and has (just an arbitrary number) 90 million SP.

One has been playing only 2 years and has only 20 million (again, arbitrary number).

Both have the same amount of points into the same exact ship, same techs and are using the same build-out. Let's say, it's a 100k SP buildout (agai, arbitrary number).

SP wise, those two players are exactly the same at that time, in those ships. That one was playing 6 years longer means nothing. It doesn't matter that the 8 year vet has 70 million more SP into their character, because at that point they're only making use of the 100k required to pilot and equip the ship and buildout they're using. The other 89,900,000 SP they have is doing absolutely nothing for them.

At that point, it comes down to who has better command of their ship and is a better tactician. If the 8 year vet hasn't had as much time or practice in their current buildout, but the 2 year player has had lots of training in it, then yes, it's quite possible the 2 year player can wipe the floor with the 8 year vet.

How long either player has been playing has absolutely nothing to do with it.

The problem people have with not understanding Eve is that they keep trying to think of it in terms of other MMOs that work on entirely linear progression... as in time = progression = power. Where a level 50 will always beat a level 10.  It doesn't work that way in Eve. Not at all.

 

 

 

 Length in time also adds experience with the player themselves, they should be able to out wit the opposing player and no matter how much you dance around this subject. Someone with 6 years more experience at the game will be better. Of course, don't add to the equation that the 6 year veteran has been dicking around just to prove me wrong. Otherwise you're still avoiding my points completely.

No. Wrong.

A player should be able to out-wit and out-play another player in the specific builds and playstyles they have practiced and gained experience in.

That's like saying someone who's played a game for 8 years, but played only Warrior and Rogue classes should automatically be able to pick up a Sorcerer and be better than another player who's played only two years, but played nothing but Sorcerer the entire time. Because after all, they have 6 years more experience in the game!

Players gain experience and skill in what they are actively doing. You don't automatically become "better at everything" just because you've been around the game longer.

And of course, some players are just naturally better at certain playstyles than others, so that comes into play.

I understand what you're trying to say. What I'm trying to say is that your point is completely moot in Eve. Saying 'my character is better because I'm playing for 8 years and have 70 million more SP than you" means absolutely squat.  It doesn't matter. What matters is how skillfully can you use those SPs against other players.

It's like saying someone's been doing art for 8 years, and has gathered all kinds of books on the subject and learned about a lot of different mediums and styles. Meanwhile, someone else has only been into art for 2 years and hasn't accumulated as much.

By your logic, the person with 8 years should automatically be the better artist because they "know more".

Meanwhile, when looking at each person's work side-by-side, the two year artist's work - technique, composition, etc - makes the 8 year artist's work look amateur. Using your logic, you'd be saying "it doesn't matter that the 2 year artist demonstrates superior skill with their knowledge. The 8 year vet is still better because they know more".

You're taking a complete non-issue and attempting to build some substantial argument around it. In doing so, you are either being deliberately obtuse, or you're demonstrating a distinct lack of understanding of how Eve works.

 

 I'm sorry but your logic on making someone utterly weak in 1 skillset because they haven't played it constantly is utterly bogus. There  are many people who play games like DOTA and LOL who'll argue differently. Most "pro" players are able to play significantly better with any character far better than anyone with a less amount of experience. This factor still holds true within any other game. Just because they're not glued to a single class does not mean they're not more skilled than the other person and it's wrong to think of it otherwise.

 You're acting as if the 8 year veteran has done absolutely nothing for this entire time while the 2 year newcomer has been the only person gaining experience throughout their time played.

 You yourself have stated someone who is only "studying" the knowledge (meerly pressign the learn skill X) for 8 years. While stating that someone who has been using "field experience" has been using the skills they've learned for 2 years.

 This logic does not fit in the game if you're playing it to begin with...


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Ayulin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 344

4/21/13 11:17:28 AM#34
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
 

 I'm sorry but your logic on making someone utterly weak in 1 skillset because they haven't played it constant is utterly bogus. There  are many people who play games like DOTA and LOL who'll argue differently. Most "pro" players are able to play significantly better with any character far better than anyone with a less amount of experience. This factor still holds true within any other game. Just because they're not glued to a single class does not mean they're not more skilled than the other person and it's wrong to think of it otherwise.

Context, sir. Context.

I'm using the analogy as a way to try and illustrate to you the flaw in your thinking as it applies to Eve.

And I already accounted for what you're saying in my last post, when I said  "And of course, some players are just naturally better at certain playstyles than others, so that comes into play." Some people are just faster learners, or have a natural knack for picking up on things, even if they've never done them before. By the same token, there are people - who also play those games you mention - who excel at specific playstyles/characters, but are not nearly as good, or outright suck, at others.

Bringing it back to Eve - since that is what we're talking about here - in one case, the 2 year player is more skilled in a specific playstyle/buildout despite having fewer SPs than the 8 year vet. The 8 year vet is less skilled in that specific buildout/playstyle despite having 6 more years and 10s of millions of more SP.

So, once again, you're taking a complete non-point and attempting to build an entire argument around it.

It's obvious to me by now that you're determined to remain deliberately obtuse, and are going to keep throwing out these ill-informed arguments, trying to prove a point about a game you demonstrably do not understand.

At this point, I'm going to bow out and say "have fun with that", because at this point it can only go back and forth and ultimately get nowhere. You're determined to remain obstinate on what you've chosen to believe, and I have better things to do than to talk to a wall.

 

  jahgreen

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/06
Posts: 46

4/21/13 11:19:58 AM#35
Originally posted by Deerhunter71

I mean everything is already pre-determined.  You can only build items where they tell you - this is not a real sandbox; hence:

 

Darkfall's grind is kill 150 mobs for X prowess. in other MMO's we call that themepark and stupid. In Darkfall it is called "sandbox" and a brilliant system. Go figure, lol......

 

Why is this guy still posting and mods why do you allow his constant harassment?

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2868

4/21/13 11:20:52 AM#36
Originally posted by Ayulin
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
 

 I'm sorry but your logic on making someone utterly weak in 1 skillset because they haven't played it constant is utterly bogus. There  are many people who play games like DOTA and LOL who'll argue differently. Most "pro" players are able to play significantly better with any character far better than anyone with a less amount of experience. This factor still holds true within any other game. Just because they're not glued to a single class does not mean they're not more skilled than the other person and it's wrong to think of it otherwise.

Context, sir. Context.

I'm using the analogy as a way to try and illustrate to you the flaw in your thinking as it applies to Eve.

And I already accounted for what you're saying in my last post, when I said  "And of course, some players are just naturally better at certain playstyles than others, so that comes into play." Some people are just faster learners, or have a natural knack for picking up on things, even if they've never done them before. By the same token, there are people - who also play those games you mention - who excel at specific playstyles/characters, but are not nearly as good, or outright suck, at others. So, once again, you're taking a complete non-point and attempting to build an entire argument around it.

It's obvious to me by now that you're determined to remain deliberately obtuse, and are going to keep throwing out these ill-informed arguments, trying to prove a point about a game you demonstrably do not understand.

At this point, I'm going to bow out and say "have fun with that", because at this point it can only go back and forth and ultimately get nowhere. You're determined to remain obstinate on what you've chosen to believe, and I have better things to do than to talk to a wall.

 

 I'm sorry you're a brick wall to what I've stated maybe you'll eventually learn how 8 years experience out weighs 2 years experience in every aspect. You've used obviously bias experiments to prove yourself right. Congrats!

 I'm done with derailing this thread off to EVE because I'm too stupid to understand how the game works therefore I must practice.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Ayulin

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 344

4/21/13 11:23:33 AM#37
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
 

 I should say the same about you, I'm sorry you're a brick wall to what I've stated maybe you'll eventually learn how 8 years experience out weighs 2 years experience in every aspect.

 I'm done with derailing this thread off to EVE because I'm too stupid to understand how the game works therefore I must practice.

Yeah... good call. You probably should practice.

No better teacher than experience, after all. In games, and in life. :)

  mrcalhou

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/23/08
Posts: 1459

4/21/13 11:32:59 AM#38
Originally posted by Ayulin
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
 

 I should say the same about you, I'm sorry you're a brick wall to what I've stated maybe you'll eventually learn how 8 years experience out weighs 2 years experience in every aspect.

 I'm done with derailing this thread off to EVE because I'm too stupid to understand how the game works therefore I must practice.

Yeah... good call. You probably should practice.

No better teacher than experience, after all. In games, and in life. :)

There is no amount of practice that can make a blind person see.

--------
"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"

The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2868

4/21/13 11:35:36 AM#39
Originally posted by mrcalhou
Originally posted by Ayulin
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
 

 I should say the same about you, I'm sorry you're a brick wall to what I've stated maybe you'll eventually learn how 8 years experience out weighs 2 years experience in every aspect.

 I'm done with derailing this thread off to EVE because I'm too stupid to understand how the game works therefore I must practice.

Yeah... good call. You probably should practice.

No better teacher than experience, after all. In games, and in life. :)

There is no amount of practice that can make a blind person see.

 I can't believe you all can't see the sarcasm in the words I've typed, oh well. Enjoy trolling while I'm gone.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Ice-Queen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2444

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

4/21/13 11:41:14 AM#40
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Vannor
While I agree that Darkfall isn't what a lot of people class a sandbox to be.. you have to also admit that it also isn't like the themepark games. So.. saying it's either is wrong. We need more classifications.

 

Why? Why this drive to have such hardline definitions of games? Can you people not deal in anything but one word shorthands when it comes to talking about things?

How many themeparks have absolutely no sandbox elements, or how many sandbox games have no themeparks ones? They are pretty much all hybrids.

Locking games into hardcore narrow definitons really dosen't help anyone. If anything, it's just the root cause of continous boring squabbles about what word means what.

Maybe we can just call them 'MMORPGs' and then talk about them in terms of elements?

I think it helps me. If it's themepark, i pass, if it's sandbox I don't, and today's so called mmorpg's aren't mmorpgs at all. They're barely a chat room with kill mob grinds, and raid grinds where hardly anyone even speak to each other.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
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