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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Mark Jacobs is not a fan of F2P right now.

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86 posts found
  taus01

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 1419

4/17/13 4:09:11 PM#61
Originally posted by BrownAle

I really agree with MJ on this, and..well theres been a TON of F2P publisher shoutdowns recently. 

Thing is with p2p, you can always fall back on the f2p and perhaps buy some time to fix stuff, with f2p its all or nothing.  Once that playerbase leaves you have to walletrape the current spenders or shut down...and neither of those options are pretty.

 

F2P works great in the short term, and for a select few games that are able to make it work without going overboard on greed...though support always suffers.

 

B2P is kind of the same thing as F2P just with a large upfront costs.  I think the end result is in a few years a lot of the uber popular b2p games might find themselves in a bit of trouble.  They can either try to sell a full price expansion, add some cahs shop crap...but theres no backup plan theres nothing to fall back on to grasp on to survival.

 

I like Bp2 a lot more, im a firm believer in a pay wall to keep certain types out of the games i play.  However i understand fully what a game needs to survive, and thats money.  I would gladly support a game i play for $15 a month granted i had full access and no hidden costs like in f2p games where the need to spend never ends and you end up never getting the full game even after paying way more than a full priced pvp game.

Hundreds of successful asian F2P games proof him wrong. They been doing this for years, much longer than the western world and they are all doing a lot better than any western MMO publisher.

This is nothing but a desperate developer trying to justify a monthly subscription for an extreme niche game that could never survive on a F2P model. It's not his fault, but trying to say F2P is not working is a load of crap.

 

"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

  Xthos

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2651

4/17/13 4:16:07 PM#62

I do not like f2p mmos personally, because nothing is free to play, if they cannot get x number of people to spend money, then the game goes out....So more often than not, they have to sell things worth buying in the store.  These things worth buying are either p2w or borderline p2w.  They also make me feel like someone is trying to get into my pocket non-stop.

 

I would rather play something that everyone shares the same responsibility, if it is b2p, or even $2, $5 a month...I do not like the way f2p works.

 

I do wish more people would have free trials for their b2p stuff, or p2p, but that is a different discussion.

 

  red_cruiser

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/07
Posts: 473

4/17/13 4:17:48 PM#63
If your intention isn't to release something unique or to add new content to the game regularly, a subscription model isn't going to work.  If your game has weak community tools, your population is going to be more transient, which doesn't help a subscription model.
  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

4/17/13 5:42:56 PM#64

CU will be competing with free to play games as well.

 

Free to play is being boxed in with cash shops cause they work well together.

 

Being free generate mass market appeal. People don't want to play an MMO that lots of other people aren't playing. Its why even we in this forum talk about daoc in the past tense, even though I and many others still play it. Its a "dead" mmo = its not as populated as it once was.

 

Free 2 play is a hedge against your MMO dying. Your players have no reason to quit. In fact they can't quit. Theres no mental/emotional step they can cross to say, I quit that game.

 

Its much different when I quit WoW and quit GW2. I'm actually more interested in WoW but its not F2P and I cant be arsed to pull my CC back out.

GW2 I'm simply not interested in anymore at all, but thats not to say they can't just patch the game to be awesome, tell me about it, I can reinstall it and play again. Theres no reason not to, theres nothing stopping me.

 

THAT is the value of free to play. You can't quit. As long as you can install the game from the web and remember your password, you're forever a customer.

Its like any other free service we just don't utilize much anymore, forever available, we've just lost interest.

 

Free to play games have just gotten a really bad rep due to the early pay to win implementations, when free to play doesn't even necessarily need to have a cash shop.

 

Subscription = pay for the ability to connect to a server.

Timecard = pay only for the time you spent actually connected to a server.

Free to play = connecting to the server is free.

 

Nobody need make any more of it than that. I have more to say about premium services but that next post.

  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

4/17/13 6:23:22 PM#65

Cash shops, premium services, whatever its called.

 

Lets start with, Mark Jacobs doesn't like gold sellers.

Well, DAoC has gold sellers, has for a long time, and there is plenty of demand for it.

DAoC also has lots of paid for power leveling going on.

People openly discuss buying and selling these services both ingame and ventrilo.

NOBODY HAS A PROBLEM WITH IT.

Yes its against the EULA, but like anything illegal, you can still buy it. The state of gold and PL services in daoc is a lot like weed, if you could smoke right in front of a cop and nobody cares. Technically illegal, but completely unenforced and extremely profitable.

 

Cash shops and premium services are a way for the developers of the game to reap that profit that their players will be purchasing anyways. You're not going to stop people from buying advantages. And if you think you are going to, then you'll just be wasting money. Merely attempting to is petty and self-destructive. Your enemy will still be making money, and you'll be losing money. What you might see as some kind of holy war, your unclean enemy will just see as the cost of business, a business challenge.

 

Your enemy isn't an enemy at all, its just an unchallenged competitor. Thats where cash shops and premium services come into play. In this day and age you're almost stupid for not providing premium services and ways to purchase ways around obsticles.

 

At the very least, you want the developer to make a tiny piece of the real cash pie. The real cash auction house was a way for blizzard to do this without having a cash shop. Blizzard has no way to stop people from selling shit outside of the game, the most profitable thing they could do is just make sure they make a tiny piece of the profit.

 

This is a model I think every game developer should follow. If you want a player driven economy, then you basically don't want to have much of a cash shop. But simply put, you won't be able to stop people from selling stuff outside of the game.

 

I guess the point to take away from my post is that every MMO has a premium service or cash shop and you have to be deluded in order to not recognize it. Also theres nothing wrong with the developers not making profit instead of gold sellers.

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2871

4/17/13 6:30:47 PM#66
Originally posted by eyelolled

I think that if MJ is really serious about providing this quality niche game, then the players need to be willing to step up and stand behind the concept beyond just kickstarter. I think that all the players should rally together and let Jacobs know that the players will pay a higher monthly premium, just to insure that this game becomes available and STAYS available!! Lets show the world how important CU is to us!

 

NIce to see a very bias poll you put there eyelolled.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Chakula

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/20/07
Posts: 12

4/17/13 6:34:15 PM#67

I agree with him, in the sense that F2P games are rushed onto the market, and neglected after release. All the while the company has their grimey paws out saying "hey buy our stuff from the cash shop and we'll fix everything". Sorry I won't be held hostage, i'll pay a subscription and play games that are maintained on a regular basis. Not interested in drive-by games I haven't played any F2P games as none of the really appealed to me. They seem like cheap perfume, they smell bad, but at least they cover up the worse smell of the person.

Sub model won't die, if you think it will ask the largest MMO in the world what they think about the F2P model. I'm sure you'll get an astounding "lol".

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2871

4/17/13 6:49:29 PM#68
Originally posted by Chakula

I agree with him, in the sense that F2P games are rushed onto the market, and neglected after release. All the while the company has their grimey paws out saying "hey buy our stuff from the cash shop and we'll fix everything". Sorry I won't be held hostage, i'll pay a subscription and play games that are maintained on a regular basis. Not interested in drive-by games I haven't played any F2P games as none of the really appealed to me. They seem like cheap perfume, they smell bad, but at least they cover up the worse smell of the person.

Sub model won't die, if you think it will ask the largest MMO in the world what they think about the F2P model. I'm sure you'll get an astounding "lol".

 The same can be said for the subscription model, "take my money upfront so long as you promise you'll keep the game up-to-date with content and the  bugs fixed". Promises are ment to be broken and your point stands invalid.

 The largest game in the world could easily make 100x more money than any other game if/when it switches over to F2P. Because you'll have the masses that are loyal to the game and the masses that will also flock to the game if/when it goes F2P.

I also say if/when because it would be a stupid business move not to take advantage of such a model after the life of the game runs its course for the subscription model.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3101

I am more than some of my parts

4/17/13 6:53:59 PM#69
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by eyelolled

I think that if MJ is really serious about providing this quality niche game, then the players need to be willing to step up and stand behind the concept beyond just kickstarter. I think that all the players should rally together and let Jacobs know that the players will pay a higher monthly premium, just to insure that this game becomes available and STAYS available!! Lets show the world how important CU is to us!

 

NIce to see a very bias poll you put there eyelolled.

I was going to add more options but I accidently hit enter 

>.>

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2871

4/17/13 6:57:05 PM#70
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by eyelolled

I think that if MJ is really serious about providing this quality niche game, then the players need to be willing to step up and stand behind the concept beyond just kickstarter. I think that all the players should rally together and let Jacobs know that the players will pay a higher monthly premium, just to insure that this game becomes available and STAYS available!! Lets show the world how important CU is to us!

 

NIce to see a very bias poll you put there eyelolled.

I was going to add more options but I accidently hit enter 

>.>

 Right! Anyways, my answer would be No, I'm a freeloader :)

However, if you say what is actually true. I'll fill in the imaginary box of:

[willing to only pay if the product is worth my money to begin with regardless of model].

I'd like to be able to purchase a product and use the first month without entering any credit information or buying a time card. That way I can properly judge whether or not I am willing enough to spend further amounts of money on the product.

Same thing goes for the free-to-play model. I'd like to test the game out before dedicating any portion of my money to the product.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  ice-vortex

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 921

4/17/13 7:17:02 PM#71
A box price and subscription fee is a barrier between new players who have never played your game or even your type of game and the game itself. The subscription is also a barrier for people who do not like the idea that if they can't make the monthly payment one month that the game they have paid for and dedicated a lot of time into is then inaccessible to them.
  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2871

4/17/13 7:26:14 PM#72
Originally posted by ice-vortex
A box price and subscription fee is a barrier between new players who have never played your game or even your type of game and the game itself. The subscription is also a barrier for people who do not like the idea that if they can't make the monthly payment one month that the game they have paid for and dedicated a lot of time into is then inaccessible to them.

 The purpose of a up front fee for the subscription ontop of the inital purchase of the box is to get an addition $15.00 dollars on top of the intial purchase. Or to entice the customer in purchasing a long-term subscription by stating that it saves X amount of dollars over X amount of time. It's a marketing scheme to make more money off of the customer.

 The benefit/downside to the box/subscription fee's is that it deters many potential/unwanted customers. Like I said, I personally would like to try a product before making a commitment. Especially with a MMO; because of the amount of poorly constructed games that have been released these past few years.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3863

RIP City of Heroes!

4/17/13 7:35:53 PM#73
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Zifty.

I do sub to ps2 though.
1 I like the game and want to support it
2 I level faster, and level while offline, leveling faster helps me be better in a wider range of roles than a f2p player.
3 I get free cash every month to pimp my rides

But I think ps2 has a very good f2p or sub model.

Im against most f2p systems particularly those with lock boxes and other pseudo gambling systems.

 Paying to support a game you like is a very good reason to support it.  I wish more players had that attitude.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4817

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

4/17/13 7:41:24 PM#74
I have no problem with any payment model as long as there's no cash shop in any shape or form. Beyond that, charge me however you please. Just don't sell anything in-game related. If you want to sell comics and t-shirts or put coca-cola billboards in game to sustain a f2p that's fine.

  TheHavok

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/04
Posts: 2435

"Free crack and everybody gets laid."

4/17/13 8:02:02 PM#75

As much as I enjoy the P2P model - all things point to F2P model being the model of choice for the future of MMOs.  Of course B2P will still be around, like it always has, but F2P allows a LOT more accessibility to the general internet user.

Look at all the internet services offered for free now, with a slight 'premium version' offered if you wish to get bonus features.  Its not just mmos that have adopted this trend but many different types of genres and services.

I'm actually pretty surprised Mark Jacob thinks there will be a shift back to P2P when WoW was the last successful mmorpg launched as P2P to stay only P2P.

  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

4/17/13 10:00:54 PM#76

This thread is six pages too long.  The viability between f2p and p2p are merely differences in business models.  It's not the "trend of the future", it's just an alternative to what has been pursued for the previous decade of gaming.

The primary difference is f2p is usually 'pay to win' gameplay while p2p is a level playing ground.

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  User Deleted
4/18/13 4:20:21 AM#77
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

This thread is six pages too long.  The viability between f2p and p2p are merely differences in business models.  It's not the "trend of the future", it's just an alternative to what has been pursued for the previous decade of gaming.

The primary difference is f2p is usually 'pay to win' gameplay while p2p is a level playing ground.

Actually the primary difference is in F2P games is that you can opt to invest time or invest money to get to your desired goal within the game ( example: In World of Tanks you can spend a few months grinding out experience for a tier 9 or tier 10 tank while also bringing up some tier 5 tanks to support the tier 9-10 tank because even winning a game with it can be expensive or you can opt to get a premium account, get some gold, possibly get a premium tier 8 heavy or medium tank, these are notorious for being credit fountains but having either craptastic guns or craptastic armor for their level so they are by no means equal let alone superior to tanks their own level and even struggle against tier 7 tanks but their cheap repair costs, cheap ammo costs and the fact that you get paid allot of credits in tier 8-10 battles for anything you damage, which you will make no mistake just not in game changing amounts, makes the tier 8 premiums the best credit earners ingame with the tier 5 standard tanks coming a close second and then jet to your goal of getting that tier 9-10 tank in a few weeks by grinding xp on your best xp/game tank and converting said xp into free xp with gold and earning credits to buy the tier 9-10 with the tier 8 premium) while in P2P games you're stuck grinding it out regardless.

 

Pay 2 Win games are just greedy Pay 2 Play games in my view because the monthly costs are hidden in items you require to progress or need to have if you wish to have any hope of being competitive.

  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

4/18/13 6:35:33 AM#78

Originally posted by Isturi

Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Isturi
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Taldier
Originally posted by Dihoru

This is quickly becoming a F2P IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO LIEKS  IT SHOULD FEEL BAD AND NOW WE HAVE "PROOF" BECAUSE MJ SAID SO!!!

 

People like what they like, if I like working in a game to get somewhere and don't like paying for the game but am I active part of the community (which I am in most games I play) I got F2P, if I want to feel like a get ripped off for what is beyond the shiny graphics and lens flares the same experience as in F2P I go P2P. The only game that I paid to play that has earned that money is EVE-Online and I do not regret it to this day (mostly because I am still paying for it and playing it :P) but anyone delluded enough to think WoW, pre-F2P SWTOR, or any other cookie cutter, nothing lost nothing gained PVP snoar fest or PVE handheld tight themepark is worth paying monthly has got more than a few screws loose and they're rewarding subpar games by subbing.

 

Christ you CU fanbois are bad enough but MJ seems to be whoring himself out more and more with broad statements which make no sense in the context. Is the current F2P system imperfect? Yes, almost as bad as the first iterations of the P2P system back at the dawn of the digital era (go look up the first Neverwinter Nights game and its pay per hour scheme before it became part of the AOL sub) but it is in the current gaming environment a cut above P2P because no matter how shit the game turns out to be you didn't pay a cent to try it and find that out.

I don't really remember because it's been so long since i last bought a PTP game, but don't you usually get some time to play the game when you buy the box? If you find it bad, then you don't renew your sub. It is then no different from any BTP game. In short, you PTP only if you like the game.

Besides, it's not like you had no idea about the quality of the game beforehand nowaday.

 

I agree with you than the statements of MJ are to be taken in context. He made it clear than FTP was a perfectly correct model and it had its place on the market. The only thing he talked about saying it would turn out bad is the fact that a lot of games were coming out targeting the same customers because FTP seemed to have success and everybody went that way. All FTP games aren't clones of each other, i didn't say that, but for a FTP to make money you need a large audiance, and not everybody in the world play games, so you end up chasing the same people than the competition.

This is the problem.  You want to claim you are the victim.  You want to claim we are all "fanbois" just because we dont agree with you.  Yet YOU are the one CHOOSING to come here to a subforum set up for CU just to bash the model the game is going to use.

Nobody is saying that F2P is a horrible business model that should never be used.  F2P players ARE the ones saying that about P2P.

So who is the "fanboi" now?

Short answer:

Originally posted by Gravarg

F2P is for games that aren't good enough for P2P.  Nothing else needs to be said...I'll say it, even if MJ won't.  Every F2P game costs more than a subscription.  The only F2P games that I like are ones that switch from P2P to F2P because they were getting older, like Lotro.

 

Edit: F2P is a like a bank heist, get in, get the money, and get out.  If DAoC, WoW, FFXI, and others are anything to go by, I liked to stick with a game for 5+ years.  I might play 2 P2P games at a time sometimes (well almost always have 2 subs up), but other than Roleplaying in Lotro, I have nothing to really do with F2P.

 

The F2P community also seems to be immature and full of "new mmo players" that want everything handed to them, or they want it asap.  I guess I'm old school, because I hate instant gratification.  I want to spend 30 minutes to run from one town to the next, all the while, running (or killing if I'm bloodlusty hehe) monsters along the way.  I don't want to be instantly teleported everywhere.  I want some mage/druid whatever class with magic spells to require regeants to use, especially the strong ones.  I want a game that takes a year or more to reach maximum level.  I want a game that takes another year, and lots of money to max out a crafting profession.  I want a game that makes things I craft among the best if not even better, since it takes a year to max.  I want a game with slow, non-twitchy action combat.  Only games released since WoW that have done most of this is Rift and Lotro...They might not take a year to do stuff, but it's longer than most games (I still don't use the Porticulum network in Rift hehe)


&

Originally posted by Isturi
Originally posted by dreamer05
Originally posted by ice-vortex

It really isn't surpising to see a developer who has not been in the industry for something like 10 years to have a general negative attitude towards f2p. The online gaming industry has changed since Mark Jacobs was actively working within the market. It is heading towards f2p because it is more profitable, but it is still very much only at the beginning stages and the model itself is still being refined to what works and what doesn't. This includes industry veterans like SOE who are moving away from the freemium model towards a fully f2p model with their current games and  Crytek which are just now dipping their toes into the model with Warface.

The market is also heading towards f2p because this is what the market is demanding right now. This is simply a fact that cannot be ignored by anyone hoping to release a new game in the modern market.

The f2p model is especially appealing for MMOs because for an MMO to be successful, it needs a large populace and the ability to constantly bring in a flow of new players to replace ones that leave. If the population of an MMO starts trending downard, it is a cascading effect because people don't want to play in a game that is empty. The price of a box and a monthly fee is a very large barrier for new players.

The f2p model will never be taken seriously by big game companies who can provide us with the quality games we've been lacking.  F2p is not ever free and you can't have a true and equal MMO based on a f2p model.  Sure it might be fun for some people, but it won't ever be a real MMO the way they were intended to be.  Honestly 14$ a month is chump change and MMOs cost a high maintenance fee, so I don't feel any conflict with paying the fee.  I would rather level the playing field by paying a 14$ monthly fee (the cost of a movie ticket in one night) versus playing a mediocre quality game for free with certain people having advantages due to paying for them.  If you really look at it, f2p games cost much more in the end and usually have a less than desirable quality.

QFT TYVM

as examples of the fanboism in the last page, try reading the thread.

OK what is wrong with being a fan of something or as you labeled "Fanboism" Would the same word apply to all the sports fans? How about Movie fans? If people are excited about something then well good for them. This is a forum were gamers are excited about CU and are trying to be fans of the game so they can get CU past the kickstarter phase.

Being a fan is good as long as it doesn't turn into fanatism (note than a fanatic is fun to watch until it hold any kind of power on somebody else :)). I like CU and i may be a fan (need to agree on a definition), but it doesn't mean than i stop thinking and greet each new as if it was perfect, and think everything else is worthless.

Though it isn't fanboism if you didn't like FTP prior to CU and MJ words, and each point of view i saw so far is valid. It all comes down to the idea you have about the guys making those games and your personal choices.

A movie is a finished product, a sport is a game based on a set of rules which depending on which type of sport you're refering to (digital or physical) maybe be centuries old by now. CU has a design document and a team ready to go build it, do you get the reason why getting excited about a nascent game is just asking for it? Has no one learned from 38 Studios anything?

 

Also get excited if you want to but trash F2P or any other payment model offhand due to your own biases and I'll have fun pointing out how many ways CU could fail as a game and even fail to make it to launch.

You in the minority son. Not even worth my time to respone to you after this, Enjoy

Insulting each other is pointless. You should know how hard it is to admit you were wrong even when you talk with a friend, how do you expect to ever win an argument like that? You leave him with no choice but either find a way to prove you wrong or to let you humiliate him, thus driving the discussion in a stalemate. And you look terribly arrogant in the process.

This was a piece of advice to both of you, if you have no way to answer then just admit you were wrong, and if you are sure of you then give to the other a way out.

Originally posted by Dihoru

Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

This thread is six pages too long.  The viability between f2p and p2p are merely differences in business models.  It's not the "trend of the future", it's just an alternative to what has been pursued for the previous decade of gaming.

The primary difference is f2p is usually 'pay to win' gameplay while p2p is a level playing ground.

Actually the primary difference is in F2P games is that you can opt to invest time or invest money to get to your desired goal within the game ( example: In World of Tanks you can spend a few months grinding out experience for a tier 9 or tier 10 tank while also bringing up some tier 5 tanks to support the tier 9-10 tank because even winning a game with it can be expensive or you can opt to get a premium account, get some gold, possibly get a premium tier 8 heavy or medium tank, these are notorious for being credit fountains but having either craptastic guns or craptastic armor for their level so they are by no means equal let alone superior to tanks their own level and even struggle against tier 7 tanks but their cheap repair costs, cheap ammo costs and the fact that you get paid allot of credits in tier 8-10 battles for anything you damage, which you will make no mistake just not in game changing amounts, makes the tier 8 premiums the best credit earners ingame with the tier 5 standard tanks coming a close second and then jet to your goal of getting that tier 9-10 tank in a few weeks by grinding xp on your best xp/game tank and converting said xp into free xp with gold and earning credits to buy the tier 9-10 with the tier 8 premium) while in P2P games you're stuck grinding it out regardless.

 

Pay 2 Win games are just greedy Pay 2 Play games in my view because the monthly costs are hidden in items you require to progress or have any hope of being competitive.

The problem with FTP is than a lot of people play it because they don't have or don't want to spend the money, and it is rather frustrating to see someone have in game advantages on you because they paid when you can't. It doesn't matter if that advantage is actually making you better, that's why even if it isn't PTW people will still not like it. Although PTW makes it even worse.

About PTP sticking you to grind regardless, i will just say than for me it doesn't matter to grind if it is actually interesting. Meaning if it doesn't involve killing hundreds of thousands of the same mobs or redo the same things dozens of time. And that's why grinding in CU won't be a problem, you fight against other humans, so it never gets predictable and boring.

 

  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

4/18/13 6:57:09 AM#79
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

This thread is six pages too long.  The viability between f2p and p2p are merely differences in business models.  It's not the "trend of the future", it's just an alternative to what has been pursued for the previous decade of gaming.

The primary difference is f2p is usually 'pay to win' gameplay while p2p is a level playing ground.

Actually the primary difference is in F2P games is that you can opt to invest time or invest money to get to your desired goal within the game ( example: In World of Tanks you can spend a few months grinding out experience for a tier 9 or tier 10 tank while also bringing up some tier 5 tanks to support the tier 9-10 tank because even winning a game with it can be expensive or you can opt to get a premium account, get some gold, possibly get a premium tier 8 heavy or medium tank, these are notorious for being credit fountains but having either craptastic guns or craptastic armor for their level so they are by no means equal let alone superior to tanks their own level and even struggle against tier 7 tanks but their cheap repair costs, cheap ammo costs and the fact that you get paid allot of credits in tier 8-10 battles for anything you damage, which you will make no mistake just not in game changing amounts, makes the tier 8 premiums the best credit earners ingame with the tier 5 standard tanks coming a close second and then jet to your goal of getting that tier 9-10 tank in a few weeks by grinding xp on your best xp/game tank and converting said xp into free xp with gold and earning credits to buy the tier 9-10 with the tier 8 premium) while in P2P games you're stuck grinding it out regardless.

 

Pay 2 Win games are just greedy Pay 2 Play games in my view because the monthly costs are hidden in items you require to progress or need to have if you wish to have any hope of being competitive.

Exactly.. pay to win versus everyone on a level playing field with a flat monthly cost.  It has to do with different business models and what the customer desires.  You completely supported my comment regarding f2p being 'pay to win' because it isn't completely free to be competitive.  Nonetheless, f2p isn't a trend that is the wave of the future; it just so happens the f2p crowd is extremely vocal.

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  User Deleted
4/18/13 8:23:55 AM#80
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

This thread is six pages too long.  The viability between f2p and p2p are merely differences in business models.  It's not the "trend of the future", it's just an alternative to what has been pursued for the previous decade of gaming.

The primary difference is f2p is usually 'pay to win' gameplay while p2p is a level playing ground.

Actually the primary difference is in F2P games is that you can opt to invest time or invest money to get to your desired goal within the game ( example: In World of Tanks you can spend a few months grinding out experience for a tier 9 or tier 10 tank while also bringing up some tier 5 tanks to support the tier 9-10 tank because even winning a game with it can be expensive or you can opt to get a premium account, get some gold, possibly get a premium tier 8 heavy or medium tank, these are notorious for being credit fountains but having either craptastic guns or craptastic armor for their level so they are by no means equal let alone superior to tanks their own level and even struggle against tier 7 tanks but their cheap repair costs, cheap ammo costs and the fact that you get paid allot of credits in tier 8-10 battles for anything you damage, which you will make no mistake just not in game changing amounts, makes the tier 8 premiums the best credit earners ingame with the tier 5 standard tanks coming a close second and then jet to your goal of getting that tier 9-10 tank in a few weeks by grinding xp on your best xp/game tank and converting said xp into free xp with gold and earning credits to buy the tier 9-10 with the tier 8 premium) while in P2P games you're stuck grinding it out regardless.

 

Pay 2 Win games are just greedy Pay 2 Play games in my view because the monthly costs are hidden in items you require to progress or need to have if you wish to have any hope of being competitive.

Exactly.. pay to win versus everyone on a level playing field with a flat monthly cost.  It has to do with different business models and what the customer desires.  You completely supported my comment regarding f2p being 'pay to win' because it isn't completely free to be competitive.  Nonetheless, f2p isn't a trend that is the wave of the future; it just so happens the f2p crowd is extremely vocal.

In what universe did I support your statement that f2p is p2w?  There are plenty of F2P games where the only difference between a paying customer and a free customer is the time they have to spend getting to where they want to go, the example I gave of World of Tanks proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt because even with "premium" amunitions and consumables (which btw come 0.8.5 can be bought with in-game credits as well as cash shop currency, in this case gold) the premium player will not have any advantage in tank duels because all tier 10 tanks have 260 + mm of penetration on their AP rounds so even with the extra penetration from premium ammo, which is all it does and make note APCR bounces off like regular AP on a sloped and angled surface and HEAT rounds are only effective in close quarters, if you're shooting a tank 200-300 m away your HEAT round will lose penetration power down to HE levels quickly, if two equally skilled players engage it is down to pure dumb luck who wins not who has premium and who does not.

 

Also I am not saying a free to play game is completely free but you are allowed to play it more or less for free. I will also state this much: P2P games have hidden costs ergo they are not, as Plastic-Metal claims, level playing fields because if we take what he says about there being no F2P games which are not P2W then I ask the following question honestly: How much time do you have to spend in a P2P game to be competitive? Now ask how much of that time you could've spent earning money? Hidden costs dear gents, you pay x$ up front for the game, 15$ monthly for access and sacrifice valuable hours to get to that level playing field whereas in F2P games (actual ones, not P2W with a free sticker on for better PR talk, see SWTOR)  you pay: 0 for the game, 0 monthly and have to sacrifice twice (or x times) the amount of valuable hours getting to that level playing field or you could opt to pay for various aids to help you get to that level playing field, aids which you will no longer require afterwards and which only helped your progression.

 

Which of those two models is better? My gut says F2P because you feel no need to play the game for x nr of hours monthly to justify the monthly sub cost (there are people who don't care about this, personally though as someone who was raised to not squander money aimlessly I find it a constant nagging concern) but I will say it is a matter of tastes in the end.

 

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