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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Mark Jacobs is not a fan of F2P right now.

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86 posts found
  Yaevindusk

Elite Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1168

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

4/17/13 9:00:10 AM#41
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Well I don't know about ff.
But gw2 doesn't really have daoc style pvp, no rivalry, no true persistance and stupid rez spam.
Tsw lol nothing like daoc at all, the "rvr" in tsw us just a convenient way for pveers to keep trade their way to a starter dungeon set.
TESO will be severely gimped by all this megaserver nonsense.

Only one game has come close to daoc at that style of pvp, planetside 1 - a decade ago. There are other games with fun pvp like eve, but they are very different beasts.

The best modern mmo at this pvp style would be ps2 but its still lacking compared to daoc and ps1 due to a short ttk and a lack of meta game (more strategic than the likes of gw2 and war though)


Yes, but the point of that section was to show that more and more PR stunts like this will be needed while the game is in development (for reasons described in addition to others).  In two hour long interview with someone who works on Wildstar, they make mention something along the lines of "it's the new cool thing to say you played DAoC and replicate it in some way" (paraphrased).  Heck, even Yoshi-P said that DAoC was one of his favorite MMOs, and that he wants to make a PvP system that incorporates it with the Three City States in FFXIV A Realm Reborn.

Point being that it used to be "Three realm content" craze, and now there's a "DAoC" craze; by the time we got most of these Three Realms the want for it also leveled, just how it's likely by the time CU is going to be released, only but the hardcore followers who have been strung along for the ride (by their investments or whatever they have up their sleeves to garner attention) and perhaps those who just remember nostalgia will give it a try (especially when you consider that online play will be more and more popular as a whole in the coming years). 

We'd probably think something else was "the cool thing" to talk about in a few years time.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2887

4/17/13 9:11:44 AM#42
Originally posted by Mortify
Originally posted by Dihoru

Runescape is the most known example and with over 200 million accounts registered to date it's holding it's own quite comfortably :P.

Did they start out F2P or did they change from P2P to F2P at a later date? ;)

I should have mentioned that in my posting i presume.

Runescape has always been F2P, it has certain things unlocked only for subbers but most of the game is F2P. [mod edit]

  User Deleted
4/17/13 9:18:21 AM#43
Originally posted by Mortify

You seem to have forgotten development costs. Suddenly things change once you put that in.

DAoC: P2P, up since 2001 and still running. (~12 years)

WoW: P2P, up since 2004 and still running (~9 years)

Which F2P games have that longevity?

 

I'm getting tired of this F2P argument anyway... hopefully the backer forums will have the quality threads we had here on MMORPG before the Kickstarter started. 

Well I can name a few... just do a web search...

Shaiya: F2P, up since 2005 and still running (~8 years)

Eternal Lands: F2P, up since 2003 and still running (~10 years)

 

Longevity has to do with the content of the game, not the business model... free, pay, sub, extortionion... it all comes down to whether people want to play it.  Studios are going to shut down whether they use F2P or whatever... that has more to do with too many fish in the pond trying to do the same thing.  You can't have a grocery store on every corner... they'll undercut themselves right out of business. 

 

F2P is no more or less volitale than any other model... ultimately it comes down to the content as to whether or not it will succeed.

Reason for edit... I live in the future LOL

  User Deleted
 
OP  4/17/13 9:18:23 AM#44
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by Toxia

Of course he says F2P is going to implode. Why would he say" Hey i wanna make a Sub game, but yeah, F2P is a viable option"? That'd be shooting himself in the foot.

From what we have heard from slightly less biased sources, F2P has been very very successful, and has even revived some games that weren't doing so well. For those games, certainly, the company is making more money with microtransactions than they did with the Sub model.

Personally, i'm waiting for Arenanets quarterly to see how well the B2P with cosmetic cash shop model is faring.

 I absolutely loath the F2P model and more and more people are getting turned off by it!

ArenaNet is currently one of the few who has a decent and fair B2P model.

All the other games, including the latest DEFIANCE game, have turned into money grabbing crap games, where all loot is stuffed into lock boxes!

They are really milking heavily on the F2P/B2P model right now, until it blows up straight in their faces! And we will come back to the subscription model.

Can't wait for that to happen. And if not.... well, then it's time to leave the MMO genre for good.

I don't mind paying for a game, but I hate being nickle and dimed all over like what is happening now! Absolutely disgusting practices!

Please get your facts straight. Yes it is true you can use RL money to buy lock boxes OR Key Codes which you earn in the game and SCRIPT. So how is this a money grabbing game if have the choice of using in game currency or real cash?

Truth be told I would rather buy lock boxes with in game currency then farm dailies for hours on end for one piece of top tier armor. (WoW) at least you get 3.5 useful in a items in a lock box with a very good chance of getting a unique item.
  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

4/17/13 9:21:09 AM#45
Originally posted by Yaevindusk

Perhaps I'm just playing the role of an unneeded critic, though I don't think I'm hating on this game as there is no game yet to hate on.  There is literally nothing but words and sheets of paper with images on it that we have seen so far.  It's our own expectations and hype that I'm finding curious, and it is those very things that tend to make great games the image of being much worse than they are.

That's right, there are only ideas for this game at the moment. Ideas, and the proof than the team working on it is talented.

But those idea are quite precisely defined in the foundational principles, and some other are added in the KS updates.

 

And there is one that is more important than the others. The fact than the backers will have a forum in which they will be able to talk with the developpers. Why is it so important? Because that will make sure than the details that weren't put in the foundational principles will be discussed and we will be able to choose them to a certain extent.

 

Why are you afraid to have poor or bad combat mechanics, when you'll be there to help making them, alongside a whole lot of people that may be better than you at doing so? And you can see what the team is able to do in just a few weeks of work, so do you still not trust them to be able to pull it off?

 

If that's the only thing that prevented you from pledging, i hope you changed your mind :)

  User Deleted
 
OP  4/17/13 9:29:18 AM#46
Originally posted by dreamer05
Originally posted by ice-vortex

It really isn't surpising to see a developer who has not been in the industry for something like 10 years to have a general negative attitude towards f2p. The online gaming industry has changed since Mark Jacobs was actively working within the market. It is heading towards f2p because it is more profitable, but it is still very much only at the beginning stages and the model itself is still being refined to what works and what doesn't. This includes industry veterans like SOE who are moving away from the freemium model towards a fully f2p model with their current games and  Crytek which are just now dipping their toes into the model with Warface.

The market is also heading towards f2p because this is what the market is demanding right now. This is simply a fact that cannot be ignored by anyone hoping to release a new game in the modern market.

The f2p model is especially appealing for MMOs because for an MMO to be successful, it needs a large populace and the ability to constantly bring in a flow of new players to replace ones that leave. If the population of an MMO starts trending downard, it is a cascading effect because people don't want to play in a game that is empty. The price of a box and a monthly fee is a very large barrier for new players.

The f2p model will never be taken seriously by big game companies who can provide us with the quality games we've been lacking.  F2p is not ever free and you can't have a true and equal MMO based on a f2p model.  Sure it might be fun for some people, but it won't ever be a real MMO the way they were intended to be.  Honestly 14$ a month is chump change and MMOs cost a high maintenance fee, so I don't feel any conflict with paying the fee.  I would rather level the playing field by paying a 14$ monthly fee (the cost of a movie ticket in one night) versus playing a mediocre quality game for free with certain people having advantages due to paying for them.  If you really look at it, f2p games cost much more in the end and usually have a less than desirable quality.

QFT TYVM

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3087

4/17/13 9:34:08 AM#47

F2P is for games that aren't good enough for P2P.  Nothing else needs to be said...I'll say it, even if MJ won't.  Every F2P game costs more than a subscription.  The only F2P games that I like are ones that switch from P2P to F2P because they were getting older, like Lotro.

 

Edit: F2P is a like a bank heist, get in, get the money, and get out.  If DAoC, WoW, FFXI, and others are anything to go by, I liked to stick with a game for 5+ years.  I might play 2 P2P games at a time sometimes (well almost always have 2 subs up), but other than Roleplaying in Lotro, I have nothing to really do with F2P.

 

The F2P community also seems to be immature and full of "new mmo players" that want everything handed to them, or they want it asap.  I guess I'm old school, because I hate instant gratification.  I want to spend 30 minutes to run from one town to the next, all the while, running (or killing if I'm bloodlusty hehe) monsters along the way.  I don't want to be instantly teleported everywhere.  I want some mage/druid whatever class with magic spells to require regeants to use, especially the strong ones.  I want a game that takes a year or more to reach maximum level.  I want a game that takes another year, and lots of money to max out a crafting profession.  I want a game that makes things I craft among the best if not even better, since it takes a year to max.  I want a game with slow, non-twitchy action combat.  Only games released since WoW that have done most of this is Rift and Lotro...They might not take a year to do stuff, but it's longer than most games (I still don't use the Porticulum network in Rift hehe)

  User Deleted
 
OP  4/17/13 9:37:27 AM#48
Originally posted by Superman0X
Originally posted by Isturi

Mark Jacobs States that F2P "consequences in a few years will be a bit of an apocalypse." I could not agree more. Actualy I think he is spot on.

Jacobs goes on to say "all of the players cannot be playing free-to-play games all of the time and not all of them “buy in.” Worse, MMO games require a much larger amount of infrastructure and maintenance than the casual solo games that appear on sites such as PopCap or arrive for Android and iPhone mobile gaming. The cost can be staggering and as interest shifts so shall go the tide of money.

“I don’t think that model is going to work out all that well for anybody,” he continued, “not in the long term. Short term – absolutely. Just like every model that seems interesting works out in the short term." I could not agree with you more Mr. Jacobs.

He also states:

“You’re going to see a lot of developers shutting down, and you’re going to see a lot of publishers going, ‘Oh yeah maybe spending $20 million on a free-to-play game wasn’t the best idea ever.’ That’s part of the reason, but the other reason is equally as important, that if you go free-to-play, you really have to compete with every other free-to-play game out there.”

"The nature of disruptive model changes on industry tends to play out the same"

Wow you mean that DEVs are starting to see the error of F2P well TYVM it is about time.

It is safe to say CU will prob not be F2P.

Sorry did not realize that there was anouther thread on this.

I think he is totally right about this... just look at how it has worked for similar industries, like say.. email. Free email totally failed...

Im not sure if you are batering or not? But come on now email? its apple and ornges dude.

  bliss14

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/01/11
Posts: 526

Ahh devil ether.

4/17/13 9:42:01 AM#49
Originally posted by pmiles
Originally posted by Mortify

You seem to have forgotten development costs. Suddenly things change once you put that in.

DAoC: P2P, up since 2001 and still running. (~12 years)

WoW: P2P, up since 2004 and still running (~9 years)

Which F2P games have that longevity?

 

I'm getting tired of this F2P argument anyway... hopefully the backer forums will have the quality threads we had here on MMORPG before the Kickstarter started. 

Well I can name a few... just do a web search...

Shaiya: F2P, up since 2005 and still running (~13 years)

Eternal Lands: F2P, up since 2003 and still running (~15 years)

 

Longevity has to do with the content of the game, not the business model... free, pay, sub, extortionion... it all comes down to whether people want to play it.  Studios are going to shut down whether they use F2P or whatever... that has more to do with too many fish in the pond trying to do the same thing.  You can't have a grocery store on every corner... they'll undercut themselves right out of business. 

 

F2P is no more or less volitale than any other model... ultimately it comes down to the content as to whether or not it will succeed.

OOC, what year do you think it is right now?  :)

  User Deleted
 
OP  4/17/13 9:49:39 AM#50
Originally posted by Gravarg

F2P is for games that aren't good enough for P2P.  Nothing else needs to be said...I'll say it, even if MJ won't.  Every F2P game costs more than a subscription.  The only F2P games that I like are ones that switch from P2P to F2P because they were getting older, like Lotro.

 

Edit: F2P is a like a bank heist, get in, get the money, and get out.  If DAoC, WoW, FFXI, and others are anything to go by, I liked to stick with a game for 5+ years.  I might play 2 P2P games at a time sometimes (well almost always have 2 subs up), but other than Roleplaying in Lotro, I have nothing to really do with F2P.

 

The F2P community also seems to be immature and full of "new mmo players" that want everything handed to them, or they want it asap.  I guess I'm old school, because I hate instant gratification.  I want to spend 30 minutes to run from one town to the next, all the while, running (or killing if I'm bloodlusty hehe) monsters along the way.  I don't want to be instantly teleported everywhere.  I want some mage/druid whatever class with magic spells to require regeants to use, especially the strong ones.  I want a game that takes a year or more to reach maximum level.  I want a game that takes another year, and lots of money to max out a crafting profession.  I want a game that makes things I craft among the best if not even better, since it takes a year to max.  I want a game with slow, non-twitchy action combat.  Only games released since WoW that have done most of this is Rift and Lotro...They might not take a year to do stuff, but it's longer than most games (I still don't use the Porticulum network in Rift hehe)

LOL ya us old school gamers are become a dying breed. I am finding less and less MMO's that I like right now. That is why Im playing Defience it is a very good stress relief MMO.

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2887

4/17/13 9:58:48 AM#51

This is quickly becoming a F2P IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO LIEKS  IT SHOULD FEEL BAD AND NOW WE HAVE "PROOF" BECAUSE MJ SAID SO!!!

 

People like what they like, if I like working in a game to get somewhere and don't like paying for the game but am I active part of the community (which I am in most games I play) I got F2P, if I want to feel like a get ripped off for what is beyond the shiny graphics and lens flares the same experience as in F2P I go P2P. The only game that I paid to play that has earned that money is EVE-Online and I do not regret it to this day (mostly because I am still paying for it and playing it :P) but anyone delluded enough to think WoW, pre-F2P SWTOR, or any other cookie cutter, nothing lost nothing gained PVP snoar fest or PVE handheld tight themepark is worth paying monthly has got more than a few screws loose and they're rewarding subpar games by subbing.

 

Christ you CU fanbois are bad enough but MJ seems to be whoring himself out more and more with broad statements which make no sense in the context. Is the current F2P system imperfect? Yes, almost as bad as the first iterations of the P2P system back at the dawn of the digital era (go look up the first Neverwinter Nights game and its pay per hour scheme before it became part of the AOL sub) but it is in the current gaming environment a cut above P2P because no matter how shit the game turns out to be you didn't pay a cent to try it and find that out.

  MightyPit

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/02
Posts: 88

4/17/13 10:24:24 AM#52
Originally posted by Dihoru

This is quickly becoming a F2P IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO LIEKS  IT SHOULD FEEL BAD AND NOW WE HAVE "PROOF" BECAUSE MJ SAID SO!!!

Not really. It is not a bad business model. It has advantages for provider and consumer.

But it can become bad for both:

Bad for the provider:

- Playerbase who is not big enough so that the small percentage of players who actually spent money in the cashshop does not bring the money necessary to maintain and evolve the game. First cuts when the money gets short is the invest in further content and in the customer service. -> Bad for the consumer too.

Bad for the consumer:

To make more money out of an f2p game you have some posibilities:

-Sell lottery items. The real outcome is not predictable, but you can get something valuable. (example: dye-pack in guildwars 2: You can get some real valuable dyes, but most of the time it will be crap)

-Design the game that way that you need to buy in the cashshop to compete vs Environment and/or other players. I am burned here, since I played Runes of Magic on a pvp-server. You are not able to complete higher dungeons or kill some other players without invest massive amounts of money in the cashshop.

- Limit some things to the basic account and let the player buy extensions for it. (bank space, bag space, character slots)

-Let the player buy ingame currency for real money.

The tale of cashshops only for appearances is a nice one, but you will not make the big money with it. But it is a start to accustom the player to a cashshop.

 

 

MMO's played so far:
UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE
Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/17/13 10:49:27 AM#53
Mightypit
Ps2 has none of those things in its cash shop.
  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

4/17/13 11:34:33 AM#54
Originally posted by Dihoru

This is quickly becoming a F2P IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO LIEKS  IT SHOULD FEEL BAD AND NOW WE HAVE "PROOF" BECAUSE MJ SAID SO!!!

 

People like what they like, if I like working in a game to get somewhere and don't like paying for the game but am I active part of the community (which I am in most games I play) I got F2P, if I want to feel like a get ripped off for what is beyond the shiny graphics and lens flares the same experience as in F2P I go P2P. The only game that I paid to play that has earned that money is EVE-Online and I do not regret it to this day (mostly because I am still paying for it and playing it :P) but anyone delluded enough to think WoW, pre-F2P SWTOR, or any other cookie cutter, nothing lost nothing gained PVP snoar fest or PVE handheld tight themepark is worth paying monthly has got more than a few screws loose and they're rewarding subpar games by subbing.

 

Christ you CU fanbois are bad enough but MJ seems to be whoring himself out more and more with broad statements which make no sense in the context. Is the current F2P system imperfect? Yes, almost as bad as the first iterations of the P2P system back at the dawn of the digital era (go look up the first Neverwinter Nights game and its pay per hour scheme before it became part of the AOL sub) but it is in the current gaming environment a cut above P2P because no matter how shit the game turns out to be you didn't pay a cent to try it and find that out.

This is the problem.  You want to claim you are the victim.  You want to claim we are all "fanbois" just because we dont agree with you.  Yet YOU are the one CHOOSING to come here to a subforum set up for CU just to bash the model the game is going to use.

Nobody is saying that F2P is a horrible business model that should never be used.  F2P players ARE the ones saying that about P2P.

So who is the "fanboi" now?

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2887

4/17/13 11:59:23 AM#55
Originally posted by Taldier
Originally posted by Dihoru

This is quickly becoming a F2P IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO LIEKS  IT SHOULD FEEL BAD AND NOW WE HAVE "PROOF" BECAUSE MJ SAID SO!!!

 

People like what they like, if I like working in a game to get somewhere and don't like paying for the game but am I active part of the community (which I am in most games I play) I got F2P, if I want to feel like a get ripped off for what is beyond the shiny graphics and lens flares the same experience as in F2P I go P2P. The only game that I paid to play that has earned that money is EVE-Online and I do not regret it to this day (mostly because I am still paying for it and playing it :P) but anyone delluded enough to think WoW, pre-F2P SWTOR, or any other cookie cutter, nothing lost nothing gained PVP snoar fest or PVE handheld tight themepark is worth paying monthly has got more than a few screws loose and they're rewarding subpar games by subbing.

 

Christ you CU fanbois are bad enough but MJ seems to be whoring himself out more and more with broad statements which make no sense in the context. Is the current F2P system imperfect? Yes, almost as bad as the first iterations of the P2P system back at the dawn of the digital era (go look up the first Neverwinter Nights game and its pay per hour scheme before it became part of the AOL sub) but it is in the current gaming environment a cut above P2P because no matter how shit the game turns out to be you didn't pay a cent to try it and find that out.

This is the problem.  You want to claim you are the victim.  You want to claim we are all "fanbois" just because we dont agree with you.  Yet YOU are the one CHOOSING to come here to a subforum set up for CU just to bash the model the game is going to use.

Nobody is saying that F2P is a horrible business model that should never be used.  F2P players ARE the ones saying that about P2P.

So who is the "fanboi" now?

Short answer:

Originally posted by Gravarg

F2P is for games that aren't good enough for P2P.  Nothing else needs to be said...I'll say it, even if MJ won't.  Every F2P game costs more than a subscription.  The only F2P games that I like are ones that switch from P2P to F2P because they were getting older, like Lotro.

 

Edit: F2P is a like a bank heist, get in, get the money, and get out.  If DAoC, WoW, FFXI, and others are anything to go by, I liked to stick with a game for 5+ years.  I might play 2 P2P games at a time sometimes (well almost always have 2 subs up), but other than Roleplaying in Lotro, I have nothing to really do with F2P.

 

The F2P community also seems to be immature and full of "new mmo players" that want everything handed to them, or they want it asap.  I guess I'm old school, because I hate instant gratification.  I want to spend 30 minutes to run from one town to the next, all the while, running (or killing if I'm bloodlusty hehe) monsters along the way.  I don't want to be instantly teleported everywhere.  I want some mage/druid whatever class with magic spells to require regeants to use, especially the strong ones.  I want a game that takes a year or more to reach maximum level.  I want a game that takes another year, and lots of money to max out a crafting profession.  I want a game that makes things I craft among the best if not even better, since it takes a year to max.  I want a game with slow, non-twitchy action combat.  Only games released since WoW that have done most of this is Rift and Lotro...They might not take a year to do stuff, but it's longer than most games (I still don't use the Porticulum network in Rift hehe)


&

Originally posted by Isturi
Originally posted by dreamer05
Originally posted by ice-vortex

It really isn't surpising to see a developer who has not been in the industry for something like 10 years to have a general negative attitude towards f2p. The online gaming industry has changed since Mark Jacobs was actively working within the market. It is heading towards f2p because it is more profitable, but it is still very much only at the beginning stages and the model itself is still being refined to what works and what doesn't. This includes industry veterans like SOE who are moving away from the freemium model towards a fully f2p model with their current games and  Crytek which are just now dipping their toes into the model with Warface.

The market is also heading towards f2p because this is what the market is demanding right now. This is simply a fact that cannot be ignored by anyone hoping to release a new game in the modern market.

The f2p model is especially appealing for MMOs because for an MMO to be successful, it needs a large populace and the ability to constantly bring in a flow of new players to replace ones that leave. If the population of an MMO starts trending downard, it is a cascading effect because people don't want to play in a game that is empty. The price of a box and a monthly fee is a very large barrier for new players.

The f2p model will never be taken seriously by big game companies who can provide us with the quality games we've been lacking.  F2p is not ever free and you can't have a true and equal MMO based on a f2p model.  Sure it might be fun for some people, but it won't ever be a real MMO the way they were intended to be.  Honestly 14$ a month is chump change and MMOs cost a high maintenance fee, so I don't feel any conflict with paying the fee.  I would rather level the playing field by paying a 14$ monthly fee (the cost of a movie ticket in one night) versus playing a mediocre quality game for free with certain people having advantages due to paying for them.  If you really look at it, f2p games cost much more in the end and usually have a less than desirable quality.

QFT TYVM

as examples of the fanboism in the last page, try reading the thread.

  User Deleted
 
OP  4/17/13 12:05:36 PM#56
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Taldier
Originally posted by Dihoru

This is quickly becoming a F2P IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO LIEKS  IT SHOULD FEEL BAD AND NOW WE HAVE "PROOF" BECAUSE MJ SAID SO!!!

 

People like what they like, if I like working in a game to get somewhere and don't like paying for the game but am I active part of the community (which I am in most games I play) I got F2P, if I want to feel like a get ripped off for what is beyond the shiny graphics and lens flares the same experience as in F2P I go P2P. The only game that I paid to play that has earned that money is EVE-Online and I do not regret it to this day (mostly because I am still paying for it and playing it :P) but anyone delluded enough to think WoW, pre-F2P SWTOR, or any other cookie cutter, nothing lost nothing gained PVP snoar fest or PVE handheld tight themepark is worth paying monthly has got more than a few screws loose and they're rewarding subpar games by subbing.

 

Christ you CU fanbois are bad enough but MJ seems to be whoring himself out more and more with broad statements which make no sense in the context. Is the current F2P system imperfect? Yes, almost as bad as the first iterations of the P2P system back at the dawn of the digital era (go look up the first Neverwinter Nights game and its pay per hour scheme before it became part of the AOL sub) but it is in the current gaming environment a cut above P2P because no matter how shit the game turns out to be you didn't pay a cent to try it and find that out.

This is the problem.  You want to claim you are the victim.  You want to claim we are all "fanbois" just because we dont agree with you.  Yet YOU are the one CHOOSING to come here to a subforum set up for CU just to bash the model the game is going to use.

Nobody is saying that F2P is a horrible business model that should never be used.  F2P players ARE the ones saying that about P2P.

So who is the "fanboi" now?

Short answer:

Originally posted by Gravarg

F2P is for games that aren't good enough for P2P.  Nothing else needs to be said...I'll say it, even if MJ won't.  Every F2P game costs more than a subscription.  The only F2P games that I like are ones that switch from P2P to F2P because they were getting older, like Lotro.

 

Edit: F2P is a like a bank heist, get in, get the money, and get out.  If DAoC, WoW, FFXI, and others are anything to go by, I liked to stick with a game for 5+ years.  I might play 2 P2P games at a time sometimes (well almost always have 2 subs up), but other than Roleplaying in Lotro, I have nothing to really do with F2P.

 

The F2P community also seems to be immature and full of "new mmo players" that want everything handed to them, or they want it asap.  I guess I'm old school, because I hate instant gratification.  I want to spend 30 minutes to run from one town to the next, all the while, running (or killing if I'm bloodlusty hehe) monsters along the way.  I don't want to be instantly teleported everywhere.  I want some mage/druid whatever class with magic spells to require regeants to use, especially the strong ones.  I want a game that takes a year or more to reach maximum level.  I want a game that takes another year, and lots of money to max out a crafting profession.  I want a game that makes things I craft among the best if not even better, since it takes a year to max.  I want a game with slow, non-twitchy action combat.  Only games released since WoW that have done most of this is Rift and Lotro...They might not take a year to do stuff, but it's longer than most games (I still don't use the Porticulum network in Rift hehe)


&

Originally posted by Isturi
Originally posted by dreamer05
Originally posted by ice-vortex

It really isn't surpising to see a developer who has not been in the industry for something like 10 years to have a general negative attitude towards f2p. The online gaming industry has changed since Mark Jacobs was actively working within the market. It is heading towards f2p because it is more profitable, but it is still very much only at the beginning stages and the model itself is still being refined to what works and what doesn't. This includes industry veterans like SOE who are moving away from the freemium model towards a fully f2p model with their current games and  Crytek which are just now dipping their toes into the model with Warface.

The market is also heading towards f2p because this is what the market is demanding right now. This is simply a fact that cannot be ignored by anyone hoping to release a new game in the modern market.

The f2p model is especially appealing for MMOs because for an MMO to be successful, it needs a large populace and the ability to constantly bring in a flow of new players to replace ones that leave. If the population of an MMO starts trending downard, it is a cascading effect because people don't want to play in a game that is empty. The price of a box and a monthly fee is a very large barrier for new players.

The f2p model will never be taken seriously by big game companies who can provide us with the quality games we've been lacking.  F2p is not ever free and you can't have a true and equal MMO based on a f2p model.  Sure it might be fun for some people, but it won't ever be a real MMO the way they were intended to be.  Honestly 14$ a month is chump change and MMOs cost a high maintenance fee, so I don't feel any conflict with paying the fee.  I would rather level the playing field by paying a 14$ monthly fee (the cost of a movie ticket in one night) versus playing a mediocre quality game for free with certain people having advantages due to paying for them.  If you really look at it, f2p games cost much more in the end and usually have a less than desirable quality.

QFT TYVM

as examples of the fanboism in the last page, try reading the thread.

OK what is wrong with being a fan of something or as you labeled "Fanboism" Would the same word apply to all the sports fans? How about Movie fans? If people are excited about something then well good for them. This is a forum were gamers are excited about CU and are trying to be fans of the game so they can get CU past the kickstarter phase.

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

4/17/13 12:46:20 PM#57

The problem MJ is talking about is really simple.

1. Currently many F2P games are making lots of money.

2. Lots more F2P games coming.

3. They can't ALL make lots of money because the available mony pie is limited, while the potentional number of F2P titles is not.

 

For example lets say we currently have 10 big F2P titles currently making 10 billion $ together. The all have their developement and running costs nicely covered, Investors are happy aswell with their return(which they hardly ever are, greedy bastards).

Now imagine 50 new F2P titles starting over the course of the next 5 years.  Do you think they will suddenly make 60 billion? I.e. will the money pie grow with the amount of games available? Surely it won't, it'll grow on lots of factors and may even shrink if something bad happens economy wise in US or Europe(and both are disasters waiting to happen).

Lets say worst case the money pie stays the same. We would have 60 F2P titles fighting over the same 10 billion $. The older ones have the advantage of having already recouped production, the newer ones look better and NEED to recoup production. Quite simply put, the investors of the 60 can't be as happy as the ones of the 10 currently are, which means pressure, which means screwing up competitors selling at cost for stupid merchandising reasons etc.

Sounds to me like everything going to the crapper. Kinda the same problem the WoW killers have, you can't have 10 million players aslong as WoW has 10 million players. Not if your in the same genre. First the 10 mil from WoW have to hit the final 'release me' button, then you can have the next WoW. Every new F2P MMO with awesome income, means less income on others.

  MightyPit

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/02
Posts: 88

4/17/13 12:50:37 PM#58
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Mightypit
Ps2 has none of those things in its cash shop.

Well I do not want to discuss PS2 here. However, you statet yourself that you can buy weapons in the cashshop, which provide you more options. For me, this is no longer fashion or apearences, this is real content which is deprived for normal players, unless you pay for it. You can compare this easily with world of tanks, where you can buy various tanks only for gold (ingame currency only available for real cash). 

MMO's played so far:
UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE
Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen

  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2887

4/17/13 12:50:52 PM#59
Originally posted by Isturi
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Taldier
Originally posted by Dihoru

This is quickly becoming a F2P IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO LIEKS  IT SHOULD FEEL BAD AND NOW WE HAVE "PROOF" BECAUSE MJ SAID SO!!!

 

People like what they like, if I like working in a game to get somewhere and don't like paying for the game but am I active part of the community (which I am in most games I play) I got F2P, if I want to feel like a get ripped off for what is beyond the shiny graphics and lens flares the same experience as in F2P I go P2P. The only game that I paid to play that has earned that money is EVE-Online and I do not regret it to this day (mostly because I am still paying for it and playing it :P) but anyone delluded enough to think WoW, pre-F2P SWTOR, or any other cookie cutter, nothing lost nothing gained PVP snoar fest or PVE handheld tight themepark is worth paying monthly has got more than a few screws loose and they're rewarding subpar games by subbing.

 

Christ you CU fanbois are bad enough but MJ seems to be whoring himself out more and more with broad statements which make no sense in the context. Is the current F2P system imperfect? Yes, almost as bad as the first iterations of the P2P system back at the dawn of the digital era (go look up the first Neverwinter Nights game and its pay per hour scheme before it became part of the AOL sub) but it is in the current gaming environment a cut above P2P because no matter how shit the game turns out to be you didn't pay a cent to try it and find that out.

This is the problem.  You want to claim you are the victim.  You want to claim we are all "fanbois" just because we dont agree with you.  Yet YOU are the one CHOOSING to come here to a subforum set up for CU just to bash the model the game is going to use.

Nobody is saying that F2P is a horrible business model that should never be used.  F2P players ARE the ones saying that about P2P.

So who is the "fanboi" now?

Short answer:

Originally posted by Gravarg

F2P is for games that aren't good enough for P2P.  Nothing else needs to be said...I'll say it, even if MJ won't.  Every F2P game costs more than a subscription.  The only F2P games that I like are ones that switch from P2P to F2P because they were getting older, like Lotro.

 

Edit: F2P is a like a bank heist, get in, get the money, and get out.  If DAoC, WoW, FFXI, and others are anything to go by, I liked to stick with a game for 5+ years.  I might play 2 P2P games at a time sometimes (well almost always have 2 subs up), but other than Roleplaying in Lotro, I have nothing to really do with F2P.

 

The F2P community also seems to be immature and full of "new mmo players" that want everything handed to them, or they want it asap.  I guess I'm old school, because I hate instant gratification.  I want to spend 30 minutes to run from one town to the next, all the while, running (or killing if I'm bloodlusty hehe) monsters along the way.  I don't want to be instantly teleported everywhere.  I want some mage/druid whatever class with magic spells to require regeants to use, especially the strong ones.  I want a game that takes a year or more to reach maximum level.  I want a game that takes another year, and lots of money to max out a crafting profession.  I want a game that makes things I craft among the best if not even better, since it takes a year to max.  I want a game with slow, non-twitchy action combat.  Only games released since WoW that have done most of this is Rift and Lotro...They might not take a year to do stuff, but it's longer than most games (I still don't use the Porticulum network in Rift hehe)


&

Originally posted by Isturi
Originally posted by dreamer05
Originally posted by ice-vortex

It really isn't surpising to see a developer who has not been in the industry for something like 10 years to have a general negative attitude towards f2p. The online gaming industry has changed since Mark Jacobs was actively working within the market. It is heading towards f2p because it is more profitable, but it is still very much only at the beginning stages and the model itself is still being refined to what works and what doesn't. This includes industry veterans like SOE who are moving away from the freemium model towards a fully f2p model with their current games and  Crytek which are just now dipping their toes into the model with Warface.

The market is also heading towards f2p because this is what the market is demanding right now. This is simply a fact that cannot be ignored by anyone hoping to release a new game in the modern market.

The f2p model is especially appealing for MMOs because for an MMO to be successful, it needs a large populace and the ability to constantly bring in a flow of new players to replace ones that leave. If the population of an MMO starts trending downard, it is a cascading effect because people don't want to play in a game that is empty. The price of a box and a monthly fee is a very large barrier for new players.

The f2p model will never be taken seriously by big game companies who can provide us with the quality games we've been lacking.  F2p is not ever free and you can't have a true and equal MMO based on a f2p model.  Sure it might be fun for some people, but it won't ever be a real MMO the way they were intended to be.  Honestly 14$ a month is chump change and MMOs cost a high maintenance fee, so I don't feel any conflict with paying the fee.  I would rather level the playing field by paying a 14$ monthly fee (the cost of a movie ticket in one night) versus playing a mediocre quality game for free with certain people having advantages due to paying for them.  If you really look at it, f2p games cost much more in the end and usually have a less than desirable quality.

QFT TYVM

as examples of the fanboism in the last page, try reading the thread.

OK what is wrong with being a fan of something or as you labeled "Fanboism" Would the same word apply to all the sports fans? How about Movie fans? If people are excited about something then well good for them. This is a forum were gamers are excited about CU and are trying to be fans of the game so they can get CU past the kickstarter phase.

A movie is a finished product, a sport is a game based on a set of rules which depending on which type of sport you're refering to (digital or physical) maybe be centuries old by now. CU has a design document and a team ready to go build it, do you get the reason why getting excited about a nascent game is just asking for it? Has no one learned from 38 Studios anything?

 

Also get excited if you want to but trash F2P or any other payment model offhand due to your own biases and I'll have fun pointing out how many ways CU could fail as a game and even fail to make it to launch.

  User Deleted
4/17/13 2:40:57 PM#60

I really agree with MJ on this, and..well theres been a TON of F2P publisher shoutdowns recently. 

Thing is with p2p, you can always fall back on the f2p and perhaps buy some time to fix stuff, with f2p its all or nothing.  Once that playerbase leaves you have to walletrape the current spenders or shut down...and neither of those options are pretty.

 

F2P works great in the short term, and for a select few games that are able to make it work without going overboard on greed...though support always suffers.

 

B2P is kind of the same thing as F2P just with a large upfront costs.  I think the end result is in a few years a lot of the uber popular b2p games might find themselves in a bit of trouble.  They can either try to sell a full price expansion, add some cahs shop crap...but theres no backup plan theres nothing to fall back on to grasp on to survival.

 

I like Bp2 a lot more, im a firm believer in a pay wall to keep certain types out of the games i play.  However i understand fully what a game needs to survive, and thats money.  I would gladly support a game i play for $15 a month granted i had full access and no hidden costs like in f2p games where the need to spend never ends and you end up never getting the full game even after paying way more than a full priced pvp game.

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