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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Mark Jacobs is not a fan of F2P right now.

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86 posts found
  MightyPit

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/02
Posts: 88

4/17/13 6:39:05 AM#21
Originally posted by Koroshiya

if he is against F2p then he is ignorant.

How much money I spent on DAoC?  5 years @ 15 a month = 900 bucks.

I spent about 1/3rd of that in 3 months of GW2, Tera.  I also subbed to Tera AFTER it went f2p because I wouldn't try it until it did.  Lots of people today are moving away from sub based games because NO developer has ever delivered on their full list of promises, yet we still get buggy content, shitty patches and bad balancing all while paying 15 a month.

I think the reality is, he doesn't like F2P because he is scared.  He is scared his game won't hold up to the hype of what DAoC used to be, it won't hold up and he won't make "any" money.  The reality is, people like to be micro-spent to death, I am guilty of this too.  Look at the xbox, ps3 BS that happened at launch.  People cried over how expensive the PS3 was because of its initial price tag, yet when the 360 was bought with all the same compenents it was 100 more... the difference?  PS3 users didn't get to pick and choose what they wanted on their plate, Xbox did.

How does that work in mmo's?  The same way.  If I am spending 15 bucks a month, I won't be spending money on anything else in the game because I feel like you are already getting money, in games like Guild Wars 2, where in reality you can't buy a "win" button I still spent money WEEKLY for other things.  It's sad because the subscription is exactly why I won't play Camelot Unchained.  I think the non sub model is better for players, better for developers (and yes, I worked at SCE for 10 years, Playstation Underground forum handle was Faetyl for anyone who doesn't believe me, I dealt with the online cheating systems and cheat devices with SCERT) so until developers stop trying to earn their paycheck by forcing payment of me monthly, I would rather reward them for allowing me to pick and choose when I want to spend my money.

If they make a game worth my time, ill invest a hundred every 3-4 months in f2p games.  Its sad that just like ToA he is going to miss the boat on the community, and the genre and end up being a game that loses face when it has to switch to f2p 3 months down the road.

While I think that F2P is a accepted business-model and with a big gaming audiance you can make a lot of money with it, I am glad that MJ decided to make a sub-based game.

This are the reasons:

- I played some F2P games. I tend to buy some stuff quite early in the game, even if I stop playinig after a short while. I always regret that I spend the money before. ( I had this feeling never in a subbased game )

- I don't want to have the feeling that the game tries to lure me into the cashshop.

- I want to know that no one in the game has any advantage because he/she is paying more than I.

- A monthly fee of 10 to 15 euro's is easy affordable, and I know that I have the full game experience.

- I assume (just my personal opinion) that f2p games bring gamehopper into the game, which contradicts the vision of a tight social community. However, to hold the players it needs more than a subscription fee. It needs more than in daoc-times, since the possible alternative mmos are vast nowadays.

MMO's played so far:
UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE
Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5346

4/17/13 6:49:39 AM#22

I think that both F2P and sub models can work based on the design of the game.

Obviously Mark believes that for CU sub model is the best fit, and that's fine.

I disagree with him about F2P not being a viable model, because it is for some games.

  Ice-Queen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2435

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

4/17/13 6:51:00 AM#23
Originally posted by eyelolled

I think that if MJ is really serious about providing this quality niche game, then the players need to be willing to step up and stand behind the concept beyond just kickstarter. I think that all the players should rally together and let Jacobs know that the players will pay a higher monthly premium, just to insure that this game becomes available and STAYS available!! Lets show the world how important CU is to us!

 

@ Your poll

I'd definately pay up to $50 subscription, especially if there were a heavily enforced name guild restriction roleplay server.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  Ice-Queen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2435

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

4/17/13 6:52:17 AM#24
Originally posted by DMKano

I think that both F2P and sub models can work based on the design of the game.

Obviously Mark believes that for CU sub model is the best fit, and that's fine.

I disagree with him about F2P not being a viable model, because it is for some games.

If you plan on having a cash/item shop sure, but he doesn't plan on it, so no a F2P model is not viable for CU.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

4/17/13 7:00:18 AM#25
Originally posted by Koroshiya

if he is against F2p then he is ignorant.

He is not against FTP, he only said than a lot of the people going that way will go bankrupt, because everybody is going that way and so chasing the same customers.

If you don't understand that, i can think up of a few examples.

How much money I spent on DAoC?  5 years @ 15 a month = 900 bucks.

I spent about 1/3rd of that in 3 months of GW2, Tera.  I also subbed to Tera AFTER it went f2p because I wouldn't try it until it did.  Lots of people today are moving away from sub based games because NO developer has ever delivered on their full list of promises, yet we still get buggy content, shitty patches and bad balancing all while paying 15 a month.

About the buggy content, with all the testers that there'll be in the alpha and beta i doubt there'll be any important bug at release, they will rather push back the release date than launch it bugged. Same about bad balancing, they are focusing on RvR and have many testers, there is no way it would come out with major unbalance.

And as a FYI, the sub will be less than the current market average, meaning it will be between $5 and $10.

I think the reality is, he doesn't like F2P because he is scared.  He is scared his game won't hold up to the hype of what DAoC used to be, it won't hold up and he won't make "any" money.  The reality is, people like to be micro-spent to death, I am guilty of this too.  Look at the xbox, ps3 BS that happened at launch.  People cried over how expensive the PS3 was because of its initial price tag, yet when the 360 was bought with all the same compenents it was 100 more... the difference?  PS3 users didn't get to pick and choose what they wanted on their plate, Xbox did.

He is not scared, he is realist. How many of the customers do you think spend as much as you in a free game? I for sure did not buy anything in a free to play MMORPG, ever.

CU is already a niche game, and he should go and make it FTP so that only 10% of the customers spend money on it? that would make what, 3 000, 2 000 people? Maybe less?

10% of 2M is still 200 000, that's why the FTP model is usable by large audiance MMO. But MJ is aiming for 20 to 30k people, maybe a little more, and there is no way the FTP model would get him enough money to sustain the game.

Besides, what would he sell? It is a RvR MMO, you can't make it PTW, or you'll end up with only the 10% people paying on your server, that'll leave because they are alone.

How does that work in mmo's?  The same way.  If I am spending 15 bucks a month, I won't be spending money on anything else in the game because I feel like you are already getting money, in games like Guild Wars 2, where in reality you can't buy a "win" button I still spent money WEEKLY for other things.  It's sad because the subscription is exactly why I won't play Camelot Unchained.  I think the non sub model is better for players, better for developers (and yes, I worked at SCE for 10 years, Playstation Underground forum handle was Faetyl for anyone who doesn't believe me, I dealt with the online cheating systems and cheat devices with SCERT) so until developers stop trying to earn their paycheck by forcing payment of me monthly, I would rather reward them for allowing me to pick and choose when I want to spend my money.

If they make a game worth my time, ill invest a hundred every 3-4 months in f2p games.  Its sad that just like ToA he is going to miss the boat on the community, and the genre and end up being a game that loses face when it has to switch to f2p 3 months down the road.

You may be spending that much on FTP, but you are part of a minority. I'm not the only one thinking than buying something in a FTP game is worthless. Either it won't help you and there is no reason to buy it. Either it'll help you, and it become a PTW piece of garbage. And for me, PTW is like Cheat To Win. No fun in it : "Yay i was able to kill that guy with that skill i bought and than he doesn't have!" is pretty much the same as "Yay i was able to kill that guy with that hack i did and than he doesn't have!". I may as well challenge a 10 years old kid to play chess, i'll have the same odds of finding someone skilled enough to take me on.

  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

4/17/13 7:05:04 AM#26
Originally posted by DMKano

I think that both F2P and sub models can work based on the design of the game.

Obviously Mark believes that for CU sub model is the best fit, and that's fine.

I disagree with him about F2P not being a viable model, because it is for some games.

He never said that.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5670311#5670311

Post #218.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/17/13 7:08:29 AM#27
The "you can't have f2p in a rvr mmo or it ends up pay to win" argument is bull.

Planetside 2 is a rvr mmo.
Planetside 2 is f2p.
Planetside 2 isn't pay to win.

You can buy with cash, cosmetics like camouflage, logos, hood ornaments and armour skins.

You can buy with cash new guns, which while they give you more options, don't really give you more raw power. Real power comes from attachments to your guns, modifications to your vehicles and plug is on your armour. All these must be paid for with certs, which must be earned in game and cant be bought out right with cash.

You can pay a sub. If you sub you get priority in queues, a % increase in cert gain, and also earn certs while offline eve style.

So its a pay to "level" bit faster system.
  charlesf

Novice Member

Joined: 5/08/06
Posts: 54

4/17/13 7:17:21 AM#28
tinkering with f2p and other models helps systems and dev cos. evolve, too bad their Mgmt is too busy with shooting their mouths off, instead of working.
  9ineven

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/09
Posts: 157

4/17/13 7:23:42 AM#29
F2P isn't killing the MMO market. Bad MMOs do (witch obviously go F2P or die).
  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

4/17/13 7:24:14 AM#30
Originally posted by ShakyMo
The "you can't have f2p in a rvr mmo or it ends up pay to win" argument is bull.

Planetside 2 is a rvr mmo.
Planetside 2 is f2p.
Planetside 2 isn't pay to win.

You can buy with cash, cosmetics like camouflage, logos, hood ornaments and armour skins.

You can buy with cash new guns, which while they give you more options, don't really give you more raw power. Real power comes from attachments to your guns, modifications to your vehicles and plug is on your armour. All these must be paid for with certs, which must be earned in game and cant be bought out right with cash.

You can pay a sub. If you sub you get priority in queues, a % increase in cert gain, and also earn certs while offline eve style.

So its a pay to "level" bit faster system.

That's what i said. there is no point in paying for something in that game. If it doesn't give you an advantage, then it is just cosmetic, and so useless.

 

Increased rate of leveling, for what? If leveling isn't the game itself, then why put it in at all? It would be like saying "Here is a game, but you'll be able to play it only once you'll have done x hours of leveling.", if the leveling isn't fun but the end game is, i feel like they are saying "if you don't give us money we will force you to do something boring and not fun for a while.", and use that as a pretext to make the game more expensive than what it would have been if they just went B2P. No thanks.

 

EDIT :

If it's increased leveling in the way of "thanks for paying, here is a bonus that'll make the game easier" then it's not for me. If the game becomes easy then i'm bored and stop playing.

 

And i think a lot of the people that loved the principle about no hand holding are the same.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12240

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

4/17/13 7:26:29 AM#31
Originally posted by JeroKane

 I absolutely loath the F2P model and more and more people are getting turned off by it!

ArenaNet is currently one of the few who has a decent and fair B2P model.

All the other games, including the latest DEFIANCE game, have turned into money grabbing crap games, where all loot is stuffed into lock boxes!

Lockboxes that can also be bought with in-game resources. Don't let facts get in the way of rage, though.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Jyiiga

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/03/10
Posts: 1018

4/17/13 7:27:21 AM#32

If publishers and devs produced, complete, deep, detailed worlds... Then I would pay a subscription in a heartbeat.

Problem is, they don't and neither will MJ. 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/17/13 7:32:57 AM#33
Zifty.

I do sub to ps2 though.
1 I like the game and want to support it
2 I level faster, and level while offline, leveling faster helps me be better in a wider range of roles than a f2p player.
3 I get free cash every month to pimp my rides

But I think ps2 has a very good f2p or sub model.

Im against most f2p systems particularly those with lock boxes and other pseudo gambling systems.
  dreamer05

Novice Member

Joined: 7/18/05
Posts: 542

4/17/13 7:33:20 AM#34
Originally posted by ice-vortex

It really isn't surpising to see a developer who has not been in the industry for something like 10 years to have a general negative attitude towards f2p. The online gaming industry has changed since Mark Jacobs was actively working within the market. It is heading towards f2p because it is more profitable, but it is still very much only at the beginning stages and the model itself is still being refined to what works and what doesn't. This includes industry veterans like SOE who are moving away from the freemium model towards a fully f2p model with their current games and  Crytek which are just now dipping their toes into the model with Warface.

The market is also heading towards f2p because this is what the market is demanding right now. This is simply a fact that cannot be ignored by anyone hoping to release a new game in the modern market.

The f2p model is especially appealing for MMOs because for an MMO to be successful, it needs a large populace and the ability to constantly bring in a flow of new players to replace ones that leave. If the population of an MMO starts trending downard, it is a cascading effect because people don't want to play in a game that is empty. The price of a box and a monthly fee is a very large barrier for new players.

The f2p model will never be taken seriously by big game companies who can provide us with the quality games we've been lacking.  F2p is not ever free and you can't have a true and equal MMO based on a f2p model.  Sure it might be fun for some people, but it won't ever be a real MMO the way they were intended to be.  Honestly 14$ a month is chump change and MMOs cost a high maintenance fee, so I don't feel any conflict with paying the fee.  I would rather level the playing field by paying a 14$ monthly fee (the cost of a movie ticket in one night) versus playing a mediocre quality game for free with certain people having advantages due to paying for them.  If you really look at it, f2p games cost much more in the end and usually have a less than desirable quality.

"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."

  dreamer05

Novice Member

Joined: 7/18/05
Posts: 542

4/17/13 7:35:42 AM#35
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by JeroKane

 I absolutely loath the F2P model and more and more people are getting turned off by it!

ArenaNet is currently one of the few who has a decent and fair B2P model.

All the other games, including the latest DEFIANCE game, have turned into money grabbing crap games, where all loot is stuffed into lock boxes!

Lockboxes that can also be bought with in-game resources. Don't let facts get in the way of rage, though.

Is that not still money grabbing profit?  Seriously who wants to worry about BS like that.  It takes away from the game world and I would rather pay a cheap monthly sub rate than something considered 'free'.

"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."

  dreamer05

Novice Member

Joined: 7/18/05
Posts: 542

4/17/13 7:40:08 AM#36
Originally posted by MightyPit
Originally posted by Koroshiya

if he is against F2p then he is ignorant.

How much money I spent on DAoC?  5 years @ 15 a month = 900 bucks.

I spent about 1/3rd of that in 3 months of GW2, Tera.  I also subbed to Tera AFTER it went f2p because I wouldn't try it until it did.  Lots of people today are moving away from sub based games because NO developer has ever delivered on their full list of promises, yet we still get buggy content, shitty patches and bad balancing all while paying 15 a month.

I think the reality is, he doesn't like F2P because he is scared.  He is scared his game won't hold up to the hype of what DAoC used to be, it won't hold up and he won't make "any" money.  The reality is, people like to be micro-spent to death, I am guilty of this too.  Look at the xbox, ps3 BS that happened at launch.  People cried over how expensive the PS3 was because of its initial price tag, yet when the 360 was bought with all the same compenents it was 100 more... the difference?  PS3 users didn't get to pick and choose what they wanted on their plate, Xbox did.

How does that work in mmo's?  The same way.  If I am spending 15 bucks a month, I won't be spending money on anything else in the game because I feel like you are already getting money, in games like Guild Wars 2, where in reality you can't buy a "win" button I still spent money WEEKLY for other things.  It's sad because the subscription is exactly why I won't play Camelot Unchained.  I think the non sub model is better for players, better for developers (and yes, I worked at SCE for 10 years, Playstation Underground forum handle was Faetyl for anyone who doesn't believe me, I dealt with the online cheating systems and cheat devices with SCERT) so until developers stop trying to earn their paycheck by forcing payment of me monthly, I would rather reward them for allowing me to pick and choose when I want to spend my money.

If they make a game worth my time, ill invest a hundred every 3-4 months in f2p games.  Its sad that just like ToA he is going to miss the boat on the community, and the genre and end up being a game that loses face when it has to switch to f2p 3 months down the road.

While I think that F2P is a accepted business-model and with a big gaming audiance you can make a lot of money with it, I am glad that MJ decided to make a sub-based game.

This are the reasons:

- I played some F2P games. I tend to buy some stuff quite early in the game, even if I stop playinig after a short while. I always regret that I spend the money before. ( I had this feeling never in a subbased game )

- I don't want to have the feeling that the game tries to lure me into the cashshop.

- I want to know that no one in the game has any advantage because he/she is paying more than I.

- A monthly fee of 10 to 15 euro's is easy affordable, and I know that I have the full game experience.

- I assume (just my personal opinion) that f2p games bring gamehopper into the game, which contradicts the vision of a tight social community. However, to hold the players it needs more than a subscription fee. It needs more than in daoc-times, since the possible alternative mmos are vast nowadays.

Perfectly rational and understandable reasoning.  My exact feelings on f2p.

"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."

  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

4/17/13 7:44:21 AM#37
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Zifty.

I do sub to ps2 though.
1 I like the game and want to support it
2 I level faster, and level while offline, leveling faster helps me be better in a wider range of roles than a f2p player.
3 I get free cash every month to pimp my rides

But I think ps2 has a very good f2p or sub model.

Im against most f2p systems particularly those with lock boxes and other pseudo gambling systems.

I edited my post while you were posting yours.

 

I'm not interested in having an easy game that makes me level faster or level offline (you don't even play anymore, what's the point of putting in the level system?).

 

If you don't like the game, then don't play it. If you like it and don't want to support it, then why would you play it?

CU needs subs if it want to get enough money to keep running. The limited number of people it is designed for makes it so.

  Superman0X

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/28/06
Posts: 982

4/17/13 7:45:03 AM#38
Originally posted by Isturi

Mark Jacobs States that F2P "consequences in a few years will be a bit of an apocalypse." I could not agree more. Actualy I think he is spot on.

Jacobs goes on to say "all of the players cannot be playing free-to-play games all of the time and not all of them “buy in.” Worse, MMO games require a much larger amount of infrastructure and maintenance than the casual solo games that appear on sites such as PopCap or arrive for Android and iPhone mobile gaming. The cost can be staggering and as interest shifts so shall go the tide of money.

“I don’t think that model is going to work out all that well for anybody,” he continued, “not in the long term. Short term – absolutely. Just like every model that seems interesting works out in the short term." I could not agree with you more Mr. Jacobs.

He also states:

“You’re going to see a lot of developers shutting down, and you’re going to see a lot of publishers going, ‘Oh yeah maybe spending $20 million on a free-to-play game wasn’t the best idea ever.’ That’s part of the reason, but the other reason is equally as important, that if you go free-to-play, you really have to compete with every other free-to-play game out there.”

"The nature of disruptive model changes on industry tends to play out the same"

Wow you mean that DEVs are starting to see the error of F2P well TYVM it is about time.

It is safe to say CU will prob not be F2P.

Sorry did not realize that there was anouther thread on this.

I think he is totally right about this... just look at how it has worked for similar industries, like say.. email. Free email totally failed...

  Yaevindusk

Elite Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1217

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

4/17/13 8:07:44 AM#39
Originally posted by eyelolled

I think that if MJ is really serious about providing this quality niche game, then the players need to be willing to step up and stand behind the concept beyond just kickstarter. I think that all the players should rally together and let Jacobs know that the players will pay a higher monthly premium, just to insure that this game becomes available and STAYS available!! Lets show the world how important CU is to us!

 

I'm going to spout out an unfair analogy based on what I think is an equally unfair and provocative poll (which doesn't show in the quote of the original post):

Even with a choice selection that bleeds bias, people overwhelmingly picked one that made them look like "bad guys" (I.E. they would not pay a monthly fee, or "no, I'm a freeloader and I don't like paying for stuff").

That should give you prime insight that only niche games will be able to survive under this model in the coming years.  Something that Mr. Jacobs is himself aiming for and attempting to create an army with use of strategically placed PR moves such as stating the obvious that payment models go into, and out of fashion.

In the coming years he will need that "cult" to maintain his game when the industry is filled with F2P and B2P games, with the latter most likely being prevalent.  With the new generation of consoles we are already seeing rumors of always on connectivity.  With games such as Defiance we are seeing the line between MMO and Online titles starting to be blurred.  With the onset of Google Fiber and other improved internet connectivity (both ISP and user connectivity as seen in the PS4) we will see people asking "why should I pay monthly when the norm is B2P?" (I.E. consoles are 99% B2P games and are starting to adopt these things in greater numbers with each new generation). 

Today we already see people asking why they should play P2P games when there are so many quality F2P and B2P ones coming out, and this will only be exasperated further once the next generation enters the fray.  Ultimately I'm sure Mr. Jacobs relies on a community that he is building, one that would place a bias nature over objectivity to the point they make constant threads and videos clinging to his words; to create polls that chastise those who do not believe the word of their P2P mmo savior ( "I like it, or I'm cheap and don't like it").  Indeed, we're seeing somewhat brilliant marketing, and substantial evidence of such from multiple sources, and kickstarter is in itself one of the prime places to get exceptional followers who are then invested in seeing a product  come to fruition and feel as those they're contributing in vast amounts (which there is nothing wrong with, especially if you share a vision or if the game will be better as a result or perhaps won't even be made without it).

To me it's kind of alarming seeing hype form before you; to see that cult-like nature that existed with SWTOR and Guild Wars form and the sources that cause it.  The intricacies of how these things surface and adapt, poised against any and all nay sayers of any form.  The prospects of someone making a game that seems to be tailored to oneself, or their nostalgia of better days, is something that is appealing to people.  In fact, it's infectious and I tend to appreciate the PR in some instances.  But I'm going to need to start seeing actual gameplay rather than ideas; implementation and execution of items are much different than things on paper, and we're already seeing the DAoC style PvP in many games today (Including Guild Wars 2, Final Fantasy A Realm Reborn, The Secret World, Elders Scrolls Online, etc.).

Just how long will this be in development, I wonder?  What kind of additional "news worthy" headings will we see from someone who "works in the industry" and was a part in creating a loved game of the past?  I'm reminded of Bill Roper and Lord British and Peter Molyneux (to name just a few) who got lucky with games, and then started explaning new visions they had which gave us games such as Hellgate: London, Tabula Rasa and a series of games that ultimately failed to meet most promises made.  Perhaps I'm just playing the role of an unneeded critic, though I don't think I'm hating on this game as there is no game yet to hate on.  There is literally nothing but words and sheets of paper with images on it that we have seen so far.  It's our own expectations and hype that I'm finding curious, and it is those very things that tend to make great games the image of being much worse than they are. 

Hopefully it turns out to be a game that suits the needs of those who now support it.  But really, asking questions will only strengthen something; let it slide and just preaching their word, going against any questions asked will likely condemn it to mediocrity in the eyes of the public (or guarantee it to be niche, as he claims he wants it to be anyway).

 

Edit:  Wasn't this post already made, and by the same person?  I may just be associating the picture of the user and not the name, but I think this is a repeat post.

 

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/17/13 8:43:05 AM#40
Well I don't know about ff.
But gw2 doesn't really have daoc style pvp, no rivalry, no true persistance and stupid rez spam.
Tsw lol nothing like daoc at all, the "rvr" in tsw us just a convenient way for pveers to keep trade their way to a starter dungeon set.
TESO will be severely gimped by all this megaserver nonsense.

Only one game has come close to daoc at that style of pvp, planetside 1 - a decade ago. There are other games with fun pvp like eve, but they are very different beasts.

The best modern mmo at this pvp style would be ps2 but its still lacking compared to daoc and ps1 due to a short ttk and a lack of meta game (more strategic than the likes of gw2 and war though)
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