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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Mark Jacobs is not a fan of F2P right now.

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86 posts found
  User Deleted
 
OP  4/16/13 7:43:28 PM#1

Mark Jacobs States that F2P "consequences in a few years will be a bit of an apocalypse." I could not agree more. Actualy I think he is spot on.

Jacobs goes on to say "all of the players cannot be playing free-to-play games all of the time and not all of them “buy in.” Worse, MMO games require a much larger amount of infrastructure and maintenance than the casual solo games that appear on sites such as PopCap or arrive for Android and iPhone mobile gaming. The cost can be staggering and as interest shifts so shall go the tide of money.

“I don’t think that model is going to work out all that well for anybody,” he continued, “not in the long term. Short term – absolutely. Just like every model that seems interesting works out in the short term." I could not agree with you more Mr. Jacobs.

He also states:

“You’re going to see a lot of developers shutting down, and you’re going to see a lot of publishers going, ‘Oh yeah maybe spending $20 million on a free-to-play game wasn’t the best idea ever.’ That’s part of the reason, but the other reason is equally as important, that if you go free-to-play, you really have to compete with every other free-to-play game out there.”

"The nature of disruptive model changes on industry tends to play out the same"

Wow you mean that DEVs are starting to see the error of F2P well TYVM it is about time.

It is safe to say CU will prob not be F2P.

Sorry did not realize that there was anouther thread on this.

  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

4/16/13 7:53:41 PM#2

CU will certainly be a subscription model.  Though this topic has already played its course on these forums I think.

 

To be clear, he did not say F2P was inherently a bad model for everything, simply that too many developers are jumping on that F2P boat.  Its a bubble, and bubbles burst.

 

He's stated that he wants to focus on making a fun game.  F2P developers have to make a fun game while also worrying about building a working monetization model on top of it.

 

Cue incoming wave of F2P players who want to pretend he said all F2P games were bad so they have an excuse to get angry.

  naezgul

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 389

4/16/13 8:01:30 PM#3
Originally posted by Taldier

CU will certainly be a subscription model.  Though this topic has already played its course on these forums I think.

 

To be clear, he did not say F2P was inherently a bad model for everything, simply that too many developers are jumping on that F2P boat.  Its a bubble, and bubbles burst.

 

He's stated that he wants to focus on making a fun game.  F2P developers have to make a fun game while also worrying about building a working monetization model on top of it.

 

Cue incoming wave of F2P players who want to pretend he said all F2P games were bad so they have an excuse to get angry.

Subject already done to death. Please lock

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3086

I am more than some of my parts

4/16/13 8:04:49 PM#4

I think that if MJ is really serious about providing this quality niche game, then the players need to be willing to step up and stand behind the concept beyond just kickstarter. I think that all the players should rally together and let Jacobs know that the players will pay a higher monthly premium, just to insure that this game becomes available and STAYS available!! Lets show the world how important CU is to us!

 

Will you pay a fair amount to support this game?

Yes!! I would pay at least $50 / month sub for this game!!!
no, I'm a freeloader and I don't like paying for stuff
(login to vote)

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  mklinic

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/29/05
Posts: 1426

4/16/13 8:05:43 PM#5
Originally posted by Taldier
 this topic has already played its course on these forums I think.

At least one thread on it: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/382251/F2P-Model-heading-for-disaster-an-apocalypse-in-35-years.html

-mklinic

"There's a point I think we're missing.
It's in the air we raise our fists in."
-from Behind Closed Doors by Rise Against

  ice-vortex

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 920

4/16/13 9:57:39 PM#6

It really isn't surpising to see a developer who has not been in the industry for something like 10 years to have a general negative attitude towards f2p. The online gaming industry has changed since Mark Jacobs was actively working within the market. It is heading towards f2p because it is more profitable, but it is still very much only at the beginning stages and the model itself is still being refined to what works and what doesn't. This includes industry veterans like SOE who are moving away from the freemium model towards a fully f2p model with their current games and  Crytek which are just now dipping their toes into the model with Warface.

The market is also heading towards f2p because this is what the market is demanding right now. This is simply a fact that cannot be ignored by anyone hoping to release a new game in the modern market.

The f2p model is especially appealing for MMOs because for an MMO to be successful, it needs a large populace and the ability to constantly bring in a flow of new players to replace ones that leave. If the population of an MMO starts trending downard, it is a cascading effect because people don't want to play in a game that is empty. The price of a box and a monthly fee is a very large barrier for new players.

  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

4/16/13 10:18:10 PM#7
Originally posted by ice-vortex

The market is also heading towards f2p because this is what the market is demanding right now. This is simply a fact that cannot be ignored by anyone hoping to release a new game in the modern market.

 

The market is "demanding" it right now because a lot of gamers have an obscene sense of entitlement.. that and there's a lot of people in the past five or so years that sight economic issues as a reason f2p is viable.

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  Mkilbride

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/01/07
Posts: 617

4/16/13 10:21:55 PM#8

For like 10 years, what are you talking about?

 

MJ has been making games...he's not been "Out of the industry" for 10 years.

 

Christ, three weeks ago, I didn't know who the man was. Now, all I see is him being crucified for, what when I look up, were things out of his control, that regardless, he took responsibility for. It's a shame.

Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

4/16/13 10:26:10 PM#9
Originally posted by ice-vortex

It really isn't surpising to see a developer who has not been in the industry for something like 10 years to have a general negative attitude and even fear towards f2p. The online gaming industry has changed since Mark Jacobs was actively working within the market. It is heading towards f2p because it is more profitable, but it is still very much only at the beginning stages and the model itself is still being refined to what works and what doesn't. This includes industry veterans like SOE who are moving away from the freemium model towards a fully f2p model with their current games and  Crytek which are just now dipping their toes into the model with Warframe.

The market is also heading towards f2p because this is what the market is demanding right now. This is simply a fact that cannot be ignored by anyone hoping to release a new game in the modern market.

The f2p model is especially appealing for MMOs because for an MMO to be successful, it needs a large populace and the ability to constantly bring in a flow of new players to replace ones that leave. If the population of an MMO starts trending downard, it is a cascading effect because people don't want to play in a game that is empty. The price of a box and a monthly fee is a very large barrier for new players.

F2P has been around for years, and so has MJ, actively working in the gaming industry.

 

Just because F2P is one of many functioning business models does not mean its the only one.  Its a business model, not a religion.  Theres no need to be so blindly fanatical about it.

 

The F2P model relies on a high rate of player intake to make up for a high rate of player attrition.  This can work fine for MMO's that are targetting the mainstream audience.  But it wont work for CU.

CU is a niche game, it is not fishing from that same pool of players, only a specific segment of the market.  It cant afford to rely on the [ customers in -> spend $$$ -> customers out ] model.

 

P.S.  I find it hard to respond seriously to any post trying to put SOE in a postitive light.  I've been down that road before playing SOE games, they're completely untrustworthy, and dont care in the slightest about their customers.  I'd never want to play one of their MMO's again.  At least EA is pretty much just openly evil by now.  SOE smile at you before they twist the knife in your back.

  ice-vortex

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 920

4/16/13 10:28:37 PM#10
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal
Originally posted by ice-vortex

The market is also heading towards f2p because this is what the market is demanding right now. This is simply a fact that cannot be ignored by anyone hoping to release a new game in the modern market.

 

The market is "demanding" it right now because a lot of gamers have an obscene sense of entitlement.. that and there's a lot of people in the past five or so years that sight economic issues as a reason f2p is viable.

Using an 'entitlement' argument is laughable. People have only ever paid for what they want since people started trading goods in early history.

F2P is viable because the cost in  server space and bandwidth to maintain an individual player on a game is an extremely small amount and the benefit of letting a person who doesn't pay anything play far outweighs that cost.

  Toxia

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/09
Posts: 1293

4/16/13 10:30:13 PM#11

Of course he says F2P is going to implode. Why would he say" Hey i wanna make a Sub game, but yeah, F2P is a viable option"? That'd be shooting himself in the foot.

From what we have heard from slightly less biased sources, F2P has been very very successful, and has even revived some games that weren't doing so well. For those games, certainly, the company is making more money with microtransactions than they did with the Sub model.

Personally, i'm waiting for Arenanets quarterly to see how well the B2P with cosmetic cash shop model is faring.

The Deep Web is sca-ry.

  User Deleted
 
OP  4/16/13 10:55:18 PM#12
Originally posted by mklinic
Originally posted by Taldier
 this topic has already played its course on these forums I think.

At least one thread on it: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/382251/F2P-Model-heading-for-disaster-an-apocalypse-in-35-years.html

Sorry did not see this thread. Other wise I would of never of made this thread.

  MikeJezZ

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/04
Posts: 1199

Only in death, does duty end.

4/17/13 2:50:07 AM#13

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Jacobs_(video_game_designer) a sum up for what MJ has done.

 

But of course he is known for WAR Online and Dark Age of Camelot - in my opinion two great PvP MMO's.

 

I never really arrived to DAoC before it was "too late", but Warhammer Online had a very nice PvP which I still miss.

 

No matter how many other MMO's I try, they just never feel as awesome as Warhammer Online.

 

But I'm now a fan of F2P neither.

 

I'm a fan of the b2p model with expansions.

 

I'm not really a fan of subscription neither, but there's no good b2p PvP games out there.

Playing ATM: Elder Scrolls Online, Diablo 3
MMO's shelted: Check my mmorpg profile
KICKSTARTED: Camelot Unchained. (250 USD)

  Mortify

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 96

4/17/13 3:04:10 AM#14
Originally posted by ice-vortex

Using an 'entitlement' argument is laughable. People have only ever paid for what they want since people started trading goods in early history.

F2P is viable because the cost in  server space and bandwidth to maintain an individual player on a game is an extremely small amount and the benefit of letting a person who doesn't pay anything play far outweighs that cost.

You seem to have forgotten development costs. Suddenly things change once you put that in.

DAoC: P2P, up since 2001 and still running. (~12 years)

WoW: P2P, up since 2004 and still running (~9 years)

Which F2P games have that longevity?

 

I'm getting tired of this F2P argument anyway... hopefully the backer forums will have the quality threads we had here on MMORPG before the Kickstarter started.

 

 

Methos, Armsman, EU Excalibur
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  Koroshiya

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/18/05
Posts: 222

Live with love, and love will find you.

4/17/13 3:44:45 AM#15

if he is against F2p then he is ignorant.

How much money I spent on DAoC?  5 years @ 15 a month = 900 bucks.

I spent about 1/3rd of that in 3 months of GW2, Tera.  I also subbed to Tera AFTER it went f2p because I wouldn't try it until it did.  Lots of people today are moving away from sub based games because NO developer has ever delivered on their full list of promises, yet we still get buggy content, shitty patches and bad balancing all while paying 15 a month.

I think the reality is, he doesn't like F2P because he is scared.  He is scared his game won't hold up to the hype of what DAoC used to be, it won't hold up and he won't make "any" money.  The reality is, people like to be micro-spent to death, I am guilty of this too.  Look at the xbox, ps3 BS that happened at launch.  People cried over how expensive the PS3 was because of its initial price tag, yet when the 360 was bought with all the same compenents it was 100 more... the difference?  PS3 users didn't get to pick and choose what they wanted on their plate, Xbox did.

How does that work in mmo's?  The same way.  If I am spending 15 bucks a month, I won't be spending money on anything else in the game because I feel like you are already getting money, in games like Guild Wars 2, where in reality you can't buy a "win" button I still spent money WEEKLY for other things.  It's sad because the subscription is exactly why I won't play Camelot Unchained.  I think the non sub model is better for players, better for developers (and yes, I worked at SCE for 10 years, Playstation Underground forum handle was Faetyl for anyone who doesn't believe me, I dealt with the online cheating systems and cheat devices with SCERT) so until developers stop trying to earn their paycheck by forcing payment of me monthly, I would rather reward them for allowing me to pick and choose when I want to spend my money.

If they make a game worth my time, ill invest a hundred every 3-4 months in f2p games.  Its sad that just like ToA he is going to miss the boat on the community, and the genre and end up being a game that loses face when it has to switch to f2p 3 months down the road.

“The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off , why should I. Light up the darkness” – Bob Marley

  JeroKane

Elite Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 5027

4/17/13 3:54:13 AM#16
Originally posted by Toxia

Of course he says F2P is going to implode. Why would he say" Hey i wanna make a Sub game, but yeah, F2P is a viable option"? That'd be shooting himself in the foot.

From what we have heard from slightly less biased sources, F2P has been very very successful, and has even revived some games that weren't doing so well. For those games, certainly, the company is making more money with microtransactions than they did with the Sub model.

Personally, i'm waiting for Arenanets quarterly to see how well the B2P with cosmetic cash shop model is faring.

 I absolutely loath the F2P model and more and more people are getting turned off by it!

ArenaNet is currently one of the few who has a decent and fair B2P model.

All the other games, including the latest DEFIANCE game, have turned into money grabbing crap games, where all loot is stuffed into lock boxes!

They are really milking heavily on the F2P/B2P model right now, until it blows up straight in their faces! And we will come back to the subscription model.

Can't wait for that to happen. And if not.... well, then it's time to leave the MMO genre for good.

I don't mind paying for a game, but I hate being nickle and dimed all over like what is happening now! Absolutely disgusting practices!

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/17/13 5:13:32 AM#17
I'm highly sceptical of f2p / b2p setups in mmos, they usually end up pay to win, or have a lesser problem like gw2s heavily gold dependant economy.

But it can work, I have no problem with ps2 f2p / optional sub model (which in effect makes it gw2 style pay to get there faster), that works pretty good. I guess with ps2 being a shooter mmo though, "gear" and "level" aren't as important and a skilled newb can kill a whale or vet. That said subscribing makes you gain certs faster and they are I guess equivelent of renown tanks.
  User Deleted
4/17/13 5:29:09 AM#18
Originally posted by Mortify
Originally posted by ice-vortex

Using an 'entitlement' argument is laughable. People have only ever paid for what they want since people started trading goods in early history.

F2P is viable because the cost in  server space and bandwidth to maintain an individual player on a game is an extremely small amount and the benefit of letting a person who doesn't pay anything play far outweighs that cost.

You seem to have forgotten development costs. Suddenly things change once you put that in.

DAoC: P2P, up since 2001 and still running. (~12 years)

WoW: P2P, up since 2004 and still running (~9 years)

Which F2P games have that longevity?

 

I'm getting tired of this F2P argument anyway... hopefully the backer forums will have the quality threads we had here on MMORPG before the Kickstarter started.

Runescape is the most known example and with over 200 million accounts registered to date it's holding it's own quite comfortably :P.

  Mortify

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 96

4/17/13 6:29:51 AM#19
Originally posted by Dihoru

Runescape is the most known example and with over 200 million accounts registered to date it's holding it's own quite comfortably :P.

Did they start out F2P or did they change from P2P to F2P at a later date? ;)

I should have mentioned that in my posting i presume.

Methos, Armsman, EU Excalibur
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  Comaf

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1133

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

4/17/13 6:36:03 AM#20
Originally posted by Isturi

Mark Jacobs States that F2P "consequences in a few years will be a bit of an apocalypse." I could not agree more. Actualy I think he is spot on.

Jacobs goes on to say "all of the players cannot be playing free-to-play games all of the time and not all of them “buy in.” Worse, MMO games require a much larger amount of infrastructure and maintenance than the casual solo games that appear on sites such as PopCap or arrive for Android and iPhone mobile gaming. The cost can be staggering and as interest shifts so shall go the tide of money.

“I don’t think that model is going to work out all that well for anybody,” he continued, “not in the long term. Short term – absolutely. Just like every model that seems interesting works out in the short term." I could not agree with you more Mr. Jacobs.

He also states:

“You’re going to see a lot of developers shutting down, and you’re going to see a lot of publishers going, ‘Oh yeah maybe spending $20 million on a free-to-play game wasn’t the best idea ever.’ That’s part of the reason, but the other reason is equally as important, that if you go free-to-play, you really have to compete with every other free-to-play game out there.”

"The nature of disruptive model changes on industry tends to play out the same"

Wow you mean that DEVs are starting to see the error of F2P well TYVM it is about time.

It is safe to say CU will prob not be F2P.

Sorry did not realize that there was anouther thread on this.

Thanks be to Odin.

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