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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » If the current KS fails, would you fund a 2nd KS (lower goal)?

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75 posts found
  Jyiiga

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/03/10
Posts: 1016

4/17/13 7:28:42 AM#41
The current one should probably make it, but just barely. Extremely niche. 
  tokini

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/03/07
Posts: 345

4/17/13 7:47:38 AM#42
Originally posted by augustgrace

If MJ came back with something more concrete than, "I maybe, sorta want to make a game.  Like DAoC, but completely different, but only if other people pony up the money first." Then, and only then, would I consider giving this guy my money.

Player- So how will the game play?

MJ- Meh, we'll sort that out later

Player- ....okay.  What classes will be in at launch?

MJ- Later, money first.  Give me money....

Player- uh...this isn't going well.  Do you have a demo, or at least a strong portfolio of concept art?

MJ- *sigh*  I guess I could have one of the interns whip something up.  But really, gives me all your moneys....

 

Then there is the comment in one of the blogs, that part of the money will go to hiring a story writer, so he can go back to his dayjob.  Doesn't want to be bothered with coming up with a solid concept, isn't interested in writing the story, hit and miss record= show me somthing solid before asking for money.

i agree with this. just look at the general mmo climate. part of the reason for F2P popularity is that a lot of the playerbase became tired of paying $50+ for a game they ended up not enhoying and quitting after a month (yes the player can shoulder some of the blame for that situation).  the mmo playerbase overall wants to get their hands on things before committing money, it seems.  whether its the right or wrong way to use KS, whether other games have gotten funding with minimal to show potential backers, is irrelevant.  

 

perhaops there just arent enough people who really want this RvR game as we may think - although that segment of the community is vocal and brings it up constantly, for sure. 

  Caldrin

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4103

4/17/13 7:50:11 AM#43
Originally posted by Jyiiga
The current one should probably make it, but just barely. Extremely niche. 

yes it is.. but MJ said that himself.

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  shadow9d9

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 363

4/17/13 8:38:02 AM#44
Originally posted by cinos
Originally posted by kitarad
No I don't think the interest is enough for a full game if this one fails.

Have to agree. Barely 7500 backers by this point is pretty bad. If this were a small indie game it would be fine but for an mmo, even a niche one, that is not good numbers.

You wouldn't recoup even the development costs for years with that small a player base.

 

Still 15 days to go but at this rate the campaign is going to need a 600k bump in the final days just to get funded.

This doesn't really indicate anything... many people don't like the idea of spending money on hopes, but if they like the finished product would happily pay...

  cinos

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/05
Posts: 975

4/17/13 8:49:10 AM#45
Originally posted by shadow9d9
Originally posted by cinos
Originally posted by kitarad
No I don't think the interest is enough for a full game if this one fails.

Have to agree. Barely 7500 backers by this point is pretty bad. If this were a small indie game it would be fine but for an mmo, even a niche one, that is not good numbers.

You wouldn't recoup even the development costs for years with that small a player base.

 

Still 15 days to go but at this rate the campaign is going to need a 600k bump in the final days just to get funded.

This doesn't really indicate anything... many people don't like the idea of spending money on hopes, but if they like the finished product would happily pay...

Sure, but this game will never exist if people aren't willing to back it based on hope.

The number of backers is important as it shows the potential core playerbase that Mark could see come release. The people that believed in the project and are a guaranteed playerbase.

As it stands the interest is just not there for this campaign to warrant a second attempt. At least until there is something more concrete to show.

  Cruorr

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/06/13
Posts: 13

4/17/13 8:57:10 AM#46
Originally posted by Benedikt
voted no, and i honestly hope that if this KS fails (and i still hope it will not, but ...), MJ says to himself "screw them, if they are not willing to support a game they were crying for for so long, they are not worth the effort" and goes create different type of games.

Thats part of the problem though, its not DAoC 2. While I like a lot ideas and backed it, I honestly dont like some of the changes. I think he lost a lot of backers because its not DAoC 2. If he was making a new DAoC with improved graphics, more interesting character moves then the positional moves, no buff bots etc and a few other modernizations I'm sure we would have more people... oh well though.

No, I would not back it again if this fails, there would need to be a playable alpha at very least that was fun, then I'd back it again.

  taus01

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 1419

4/17/13 9:10:58 AM#47

 

No matter how often you repeat that it is KickSTARTER not KickENDER, that people don't understand how Kickstarter works and my favourite, "But Project X had even less to show", it does not change one little fact:

This campaign only convinced 7600 people so far and is going to fail at the current rate.

All of this in the day and age where millions put up money for Alpha/Beta access of games that are not even finished, happily paying for beta access and completely ridiculous founders packages for $200.

Has it ever crossed your mind that there is something wrong with the campaign or how it is presented?

"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

  Benedikt

Tipster

Joined: 12/12/04
Posts: 1307

We live for The One, we die for The One.

4/17/13 9:31:03 AM#48
Originally posted by taus01

 

No matter how often you repeat that it is KickSTARTER not KickENDER, that people don't understand how Kickstarter works and my favourite, "But Project X had even less to show", it does not change one little fact:

This campaign only convinced 7600 people so far and is going to fail at the current rate.

All of this in the day and age where millions put up money for Alpha/Beta access of games that are not even finished, happily paying for beta access and completely ridiculous founders packages for $200.

Has it ever crossed your mind that there is something wrong with the campaign or how it is presented?

actually i think it has a lot more to do with the fact that rvr game w/o pve is even more niche then most people think

  thecapitaine

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 390

4/17/13 9:33:19 AM#49
Originally posted by revslave
Originally posted by tinuelle
Originally posted by augustgrace

show me somthing solid before asking for money.

Dude, this is a kickstarter.

I really dont think you are in the targetgroup for this kickstarter. Kickstarters are not solid. You seem more like a pre-order, demo or review after release player. It is all fine, but a kickstarter doesnt fit your needs for information or workedthrough product.

I dont think Any kickstarter project might be for you. Better check out a store.

Hello

I am a  big supporter of kickstarter, but to say that campaigns do not need to show someethig solid  is a stretch.   When you are asking people for a large amount of money, you should at least have a basic demo.  Take a look at the other campaigns in the games section I think you may be surprised.

As to the OP:  I have not backed this project as of yet, in part because of a lack of concrete information.  I would have to see how any further campaigns are different.

Rev.

^^ This.  A thousand thousand times this.  Sure, it's possible to fund a kickstarter simply on ideas but most of the indie games out there bring a lot more to the table than what CSE has before asking for backers.  They have to.  They have to for the same reason why Sally Struthers used to show montages of starving kids while trying to get people to donate to hunger relief-- ideas are not as impactful as an actual demonstration.  The success of CU's efforts right now relies mainly on MJ's pedigree, the allusions to CU being both like and unlike DAOC, the under-represented market for core RvR fans, and whatever goodwill exists within the MMO community towards non-mainstream games in general. 

 

What I've noticed is that there is precious little concrete details about how the game will actually play.  There are a lot of ideas, concepts, principles, and aims but there are far less details that a backer can drill down to look at and say, "Oh, this is how the combat will work, this is what I'll be doing when I log on, this is the strategy I'll be using to give my realm the edge."  IMO, no potential backer can be shut down simply by using the excuse "It's a Kickstarter!" as if that somehow permits devs from putting more meat on the bones of their projects before soliciting donations.  The successful KS will have just as much detail as they need to get over the hurdle and I'll guess we'll see once the month is up-- I sincerely hope it gets there, if just for the fans that clearly want to see the game come to fruition.

 

On-topic: No, no 2nd KS if this one fails.

  MightyPit

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/02
Posts: 88

4/17/13 9:47:59 AM#50

While I am a dedicated follower of CU and the ideas behind it, I think that the question is whether enough people will play the game when it is finished. And I don't think of peak numbers at release, but as a steady flow of subscription fees over some years.

Leave the money asside, are 10k backer enough to assume that there will be a loyal playerbase of at least 50k players?

 

MMO's played so far:
UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE
Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen

  LordSneerg

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/13
Posts: 121

4/17/13 9:50:17 AM#51
no.  Too muc hype for a pipe dream. This game appeals to a small market and I doubt there will be enough people intrested in to make this game a reality.  MJ killed himself in my eyes in what he did wilth my beloverdwarhammer.  SIGH!! A true Warhammer universe would own any game out.  Sorry heart started breaking again.  I just dont see this game coming out.  If it does I will try it but I really belive this game is too niche to gain the funding reuired. 
  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2690

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

4/17/13 9:50:43 AM#52

If it was a KickSTARTER, he should have treated as such. I mean he knows how much of a niche this game would be. And how he risked losing potential backers with his abandonment of PvE stance. He should have set a goal of 1.25 million to actually START the Kickstarter, get a solid website, some 3d models and some tech demos going and then explained to the base that a second Kickstarter would be needed for 775k in order to fully fund this project. He wanted 5 million total for this niche title, but refused to look at things realistically. How does he know 5 million is the magic number for even a niche mmo with no PvE? And if it was then asking the player base to foot damn near half that amount before alpha should have raised a flag. Was DAoC 5 million? I dunno. But we don't have that kind of disclosure. We have a put up or shut up mentality. A if it doesn't fund 2 million then its toast kinda developer here.

 

Don't mind that no other mmo in the short life of Kickstarter has even asked for this much for even a larger scope mmo. Dunno, if the goal for getting even the smallest niche mmo off the ground cost too much for developers on Kickstarter, then maybe mmos shouldn't be kickstarted in the first place. Maybe mmo developers should look else where if all mmos from this point forward are going to cost 5-10 million dollars just to even reach the maybe category. Hell we don't even know what the total budget would have been if the stretch goals were added. If this project fails I'd be disappointed but hardly surprised. And it's only because I hate to see any group of mmo players without at least 1 freakin mmo they find worthy of playing. Well that and Kickstarter is the only option I see for a proper UO 3D mmo to be made...

 

 

P.S. I voted maybe because at that point there could be more game to show.


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  Qullex

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/11
Posts: 12

4/17/13 10:11:21 AM#53
No, because its not my kind of game. For the fans of the project, I hope it succeeds. But personally I doubt there are enough people interested.
  taus01

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 1419

4/17/13 11:04:43 AM#54
Originally posted by Benedikt
Originally posted by taus01

 

No matter how often you repeat that it is KickSTARTER not KickENDER, that people don't understand how Kickstarter works and my favourite, "But Project X had even less to show", it does not change one little fact:

This campaign only convinced 7600 people so far and is going to fail at the current rate.

All of this in the day and age where millions put up money for Alpha/Beta access of games that are not even finished, happily paying for beta access and completely ridiculous founders packages for $200.

Has it ever crossed your mind that there is something wrong with the campaign or how it is presented?

actually i think it has a lot more to do with the fact that rvr game w/o pve is even more niche then most people think

Very valid point, that is a huge factor.

Another HUGE factor is the monthly subscription he wants. That alone shows how out of touch with current gamers this campaign is. Don't get me wrong, i'd be happy to pay monthly but only if this game delivers more than F2P titles which i can not see from this campaign. Monthly fee is a death sentence especially for an extreme niche game like this.

Paying now for a maybe game in 5 years knowing i then have to pay monthly to actually play it? Who knows what other games will come out until then.

"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

  Rthuth434

Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 367

4/17/13 11:15:20 AM#55

if there were even 120 seconds of a character in an alpha build slashing the most retarded of mobs it would have funded after a week.

with the amount of KS showing alpha footage as a proof of concept, you can't talk 99.9% of the time and show some 3d models and call it a day.

  Epicent

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/10
Posts: 670

Die clickers Die!!!

4/17/13 11:16:37 AM#56
I think they set the goal too high. Its not like they couldnt have set 1 mill and then exceeded that and kept it regardless.
  Ulorik

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/11
Posts: 179

4/17/13 11:22:05 AM#57
Originally posted by MightyPit

While I am a dedicated follower of CU and the ideas behind it, I think that the question is whether enough people will play the game when it is finished. And I don't think of peak numbers at release, but as a steady flow of subscription fees over some years.

Leave the money asside, are 10k backer enough to assume that there will be a loyal playerbase of at least 50k players?

 

See above !

 

Again, this Kickstarter is not really about getting the game fully funded, but to see if there are enough people willing to get seriously involved in it. Then additional outside funding will come.

 

I don't know what the magic number of subscribers is to make this viable and if MJ gave us the projected numbers it would probably make the Kickstarter as a market research tool pretty useless.

 

So, for our economically gifted friends out there: If we assume subscriptions of around 12 months length each and the usual app. £10,- sub per month, how many subscribers would you need to make an investement of $2 mio (MJ) + $1mio (outside investors) viable to get some return ?(don't forget the people investing the additional  $2 mio from the kickstarter will have effectively bought the game and some subscription time already)

 

Projected number of necessary subscribers based on kickstarter result = your answer if game will go ahead or not

  Hokibukisa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 190

4/17/13 11:29:25 AM#58

How you run a KS project represents how you'd run other projects.

 

I'm very unimpressed with how this KS was planned, they need better leadership.

  Mkilbride

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/01/07
Posts: 616

4/17/13 11:41:13 AM#59

It's one of the most successful and fastest growing KS to date.

 

Yeah, bad leadership folks.

Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3542

Hipster

4/17/13 11:42:20 AM#60
Originally posted by taus01

 

No matter how often you repeat that it is KickSTARTER not KickENDER, that people don't understand how Kickstarter works and my favourite, "But Project X had even less to show", it does not change one little fact:

This campaign only convinced 7600 people so far and is going to fail at the current rate.

All of this in the day and age where millions put up money for Alpha/Beta access of games that are not even finished, happily paying for beta access and completely ridiculous founders packages for $200.

Has it ever crossed your mind that there is something wrong with the campaign or how it is presented?

Yes.

Elite 2.2m from 25k backers 

Star Citizen 2.1m from 35k backers

People know how kickstarter works. Elite had a few artists impressions, but a lot of fans of the Original space sim. Star Citizen had a lot of fans of freelancer backing it too.

both of these projects asked for less than 2m

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