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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] Camelot Unchained: Impossibly Driven By Hope?

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  User Deleted
4/15/13 2:17:08 PM#41

Originally posted by Dahkoht
While I have my concerns in some regards , the best thing to me is Jacobs repeatedly stating they are shooting for a niche game and audience.The horribly bland , try and make everyone happy games are terrible in the past few years.If you aren't into RvR , want to play every faction on the same server , don't like PvP overall etc , they aren't making a game for you.Nor should they.

I wish more games would shoot for a more specific and limited audience instead of the "try (and fail) to please everybody" approach.


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Joined: 6/20/11
Posts: 381

4/15/13 2:18:30 PM#42
Originally posted by expresso

People are backing this game thinking it will being back those feelings of those days when MMO's were new and you really had no idea what to expect.  You can re-create a game but you cannot re-create the feeling you had back then and 90% of backers are doing so thnking this game will re-create the feeling... it wont.



I'm not looking to bring back that feeling. My first MMO was Lineage 1 back in 1999. I have very fond memories of that game. I realize no other game will recreate that feeling for me. All I want is an RvR focused MMO with an "old-school" feel. And it seems that's exactly what CU will be. Thus my interest in it.


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Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

4/15/13 2:20:21 PM#43
Originally posted by will75
Originally posted by expresso

People are backing this game thinking it will being back those feelings of those days when MMO's were new and you really had no idea what to expect.  You can re-create a game but you cannot re-create the feeling you had back then and 90% of backers are doing so thnking this game will re-create the feeling... it wont.



I think this is partly true, but there is still people wanting something that's not being delivered to them, which is why they are backing this project. I guess there is a healthy amount of older people who want something different. If MJ was just going to give us the same BS that we've already seen, i wouldn't be interested. I want RVR DONE RIGHT.... That's it DONE RIGHT!  Will CU do it right? Maybe. 

Did guild wars 2 do RvR right ?

Has anything you've seen from TESO shown you they are doing RvR right?

The genre is dyinh because of clones :(  A breath of fresh air that doesn't do handholding is needed. I think MJ wants to do that, will he ? We'll know in a few years... hopefully . If not? Do you honestly think he will ever be able to get support again? This is all or nothing for Mark.I think he knows that.

Hm. I kinda hope it will bring me the kind of feeling again you get the first time in an expensive EvE ship when you enter lowsec or an engagement. AKA the NBD - nervous breakdown. Damn i'll never forget that feeling, how my motorcontrol went to hell and my adrenaline spiked, and i couldn't even tell you what went through my head as i saw the reds warping in :D. A friend that was watching me go through that episode bought himself a PC just to play that game with me.

I'll gladly pay 50-100$ just to have that feeling a couple more times, because EvE isn't giving it to me any more. Though im not that hopeful, maybe the synapses responisble got fried :D.


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Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 5431

4/15/13 2:22:04 PM#44
Originally posted by will75
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by will75
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by Mkilbride

MJ wanted 5-6 years to make Warhammer, as said, he barely had 3.  So don't blame him if you don't like War.


As for Richard Garriot, I agree, but it's not all his fault, RG hasn't made a game since the 1988. SInce then he's been an "Executive Producer" and not involved in the Office at all.


JeroKane. MJ left EA. He decided to, he wasn't fired, or made to or anything. He left a comfy job at EA because he didn't like it there. Most would NOT do that. Comfy job, stock options, good pay, part of one of the largest game companies in the world.  But his own integrity made him leave it and found CSE. You can see articles from EA, expressing how both EA & Mythic, his company, were utterly shocked by his departure.


So yes, DAOC was awesome. Warhamemr:AoC  was pretty cool, but it felt rushed, and well, that's EA. EA even admits they rushed it, so that's not MJ just spouting bull, EA themselves said they rushed it. 


I'm not even a MJ fanboy or anything - I didn't really play DAoC, although I was aware of it, and a find of it's systems, but I was to young to play it during it's prime, my father wouldn't swing for a monthly fee(I was 11-12). So I don't have rose tinted goggles about that.


I tried Warhammer and thought it was pretty neat, but not my type of game either. So I'm not a fanboy of that. As you can see, I'm not fanboy of any of MJ's games.


Yet CU, from the second I read his Foundation Principles, MJ had me in his hands. You could call it pandering, fair to, really, but he knew exactly what I wanted in a game, almost in my exact words, and we never had talked. Har har, I posted tem to all my friends and they were like "Is this guy inside my head?!"


Also, I hate SWTOR and yeah, no doubti t was gonna flop, but don't go lying to yourself that they had 5+ years. SWTOR was made in less than 3, according to BioWare. Of course, they could be lying, but who knows?




In response to the new post. He DID want to do three factions. This was publically stated in previews of Warhammer, while in development. EA told him to release the game now and he could do it in a later expansion. HE was literally not allowed to put another faction in, as it was "not in the budget", and had to be relaesed in 2008, not when MJ wanted it.


YOu think Publishers don't restrict Developers? THey do. Publishers foot the bill. So Developers are SLAVES to Publishers. Literally.  Do you think big name developers using KS lately is a fad, or them trying to be cool? Look at all the ones like Wasteland, Star Citizen, Torment, ect, they ALL went this route because Publishers would restrict them and their ideas.


With KS, they can make the game they want, their way. They will be held responsible if it sucks or fails, so if CU fails, then yes, you can totally rag on MJ. However, until then, please inform yourself.


 I can still ask the same question.

How is it going to be any different now?

Both him and Garriott estimate to release the game in three years from now.

So basically same development time, but far less funding and thus a lot less people to work with.

Sure this time they do not have publisher breathing down their neck and call harsh deadlines.

But are we as players any different?

With the current oversaturated MMO market, players have become far more ruthless then publishers.

If he is going to delay the game to say.... 2018, instead of the 2015 / 2016 estimate.... he will get the wrath of his playerbase, which is far worse and more devestating than a publisher calling your deadline.

Both he and mr. Garriott will sooner than later find out, that Publishers are (in most cases) far more reasonable than the average gamer nowadays. lol.

There is a difference between a pve game and a pvp game in the terms of development.Do you know how long it takes to write all those encounters and mobs? All they have to do is focus on pvp.... 

NO ai is needed really except basic forms of the depths, which may or may not even be included in the game. So all they need to focus on is making the combat good, and making a reason for conflict. The COMMUNITY will make the content... eg... building.  And they will build their cities, they will have them torn down, they will need to rebuild. etc.. etc...

 So this game's persistent world will just be a static barren wasteland?

- No Flora and Fauna? No NPC's? No mobs?

- No resources for crafting to fight over in PVP?

How are people going to build buildings and cities then? Just out of thin Air?

What's the point of playing / PVP'ing in a persistent world, when there is no economy / no resources to fight over?

You see where I am trying to get at?

You don't necessarily have to have PVE content in form of missions/quests, dungeons, raids, etc.

But you still have to create a believing living virtial persisten world people can feel immersed in. And that requires NPC's (mobs, NPC's, whatever) and AI.

And if you want to have meaningfull PVP in form of Sieging cities. It would make sense those cities require resources to build and thus gives PVP a secondary objective to fight over: resources and thus also a form of crafting system.

We are maybe derailing a bit, but there is a reason why EVE Online has been so popular over the years tho.

Tho it never reached the heights it could have, due to  the missing "avatar" people can feel connected to, instead of just a ship that can be blown up and replaced every time.

If someone made an EVE Online in fantasy setting with "real" avatars..... oh boy oh boy! :-)

Sorry quick answer, have you read the wiki or watched all the videos read the information? Much of your questions are answered on how it will work, or supposed to work thus far. As for your final sentence.

In a perfect world. i wish the same, but there won't be any FFA pvp.. Well at least MJ said not right away, but it's always open as a maybe, that alone gets me excited, a lot of people thought how much andred/mordred were failures of a server. Some of my best DAOC memories are from those 2 servers.  Same with the FFA servers in AOC and UO etc .. etc.. Maybe world of darkness or whatever it is will be that game, but not fantasy...  I might not get FFA pvp. IF MJ is smart, he looks at EvE successes and tries to incorporate them and his own new ideas

 Normally I hate FFA PVP with a passion, due to most games releasing it with flawed designs and turning it into griefing paradises, which killed off those games pretty fast with quickly dwindling populations. Like Darkfall for example.

The reason why EVE Online is a success, is because they did it right. Creating a High Sec space where people have plenty of room to feel "somewhat" safe, learn the ropes, play at their own pace and lots of people never leave High Sec and just enjoy the game that way.

And people seeking the thrills of adventure, high risk / high reward challenge, go seek low sec and 0.0 space and enter the FFA PVP fray!

That's how a good PVP game is supposed to be designed, where FFA PVP works, without turning it into a Griefer Only paradise!



Joined: 10/16/06
Posts: 370

4/15/13 2:22:30 PM#45
Do you remember the first time someone went hostile on you in d1/d2? That's a feeling i miss.


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Joined: 4/06/07
Posts: 17

4/15/13 2:24:38 PM#46
I think some people are confusing the fact that there won't be any PvE leveling/loot. CU will in fact have NPCs..the game would feel lifeless without them. CU will also probably have critters for crafters to get materials from, on top of other various means of obtaining materials. Also, has anyone watched the latest updates on the kickstarter? The game WILL have MOBs. You will also be able to control some of these mobs in the depths to annoy the opposing realms.

I'm sorry but it seems like a lot of people here are bashing CU without even taking the time to look at the kick starter page, read the wiki, watch the updates..ect.

If you love rvr, crafting, building ...I'm sure people will love what MJ is wanting to do with Camelot Unchained.

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Joined: 4/06/07
Posts: 17

4/15/13 2:30:54 PM#47
Taken from Camelot Unchained update 17 where backers questions are answered:

2) Will we have to grind PvE NPCs in TD? I thought you said “No PvE leveling or loot drops!”

No and I did. ? The vast majority of NPCs in TD will be players and/or non-bosses. These NPCs will be more of an annoyance (unless it is a PCM) and are not there for grinding. Even the NPC bosses aren’t a huge challenge, unless a PC is controlling them. Also, the common “Kill the boss 10 times and hope for one good drop” mechanic, there is none of that in TD. You’re killing the guard dog, the treasure (forge, mines, etc.) are there, no randomness applied.

3) Can you level in TD by killing NPCs?

No. If you kill PCMs you will be rewarded and to incentivize the other realm, they will also level by killing you. As the level of PCM increases, the player controlling it can also pay a penalty if they just stand there and let you beat on it.

4) Can crafters upgrade the NPCs in TD?

Maybe. ?


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Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 4510

RIP City of Heroes!

4/15/13 4:21:45 PM#48
If the game fails, no big deal.  Games aren't that important.


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Joined: 8/15/06
Posts: 438

4/15/13 4:45:33 PM#49

I'm too young to have played DOAC in it's prime and I am a part of this new "younger" generation of mmo-players that keep buying and asking for more trash-like WoW clones. I on the other hand, am looking forward to CU and will be donating towards it's funding. Theres been so much repetative trash these past few years and no matter who's to blame its gotten out of control.

The openness of MJ and CSE about CU and what their aiming for is inspiring and even if it doesn't pan out, I hope it does, I'll be there for it. I'm a hardcore large-scale pvper who hasn't had the fortune to play a good rvr game at it's prime yet.

ESO & ArchAge should last me till CU

Dozens of MMO's, RTS's, FPS's, etc.


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Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

4/15/13 4:47:21 PM#50
Originally posted by AlBQuirky


Originally posted by Dahkoht
While I have my concerns in some regards , the best thing to me is Jacobs repeatedly stating they are shooting for a niche game and audience.The horribly bland , try and make everyone happy games are terrible in the past few years.If you aren't into RvR , want to play every faction on the same server , don't like PvP overall etc , they aren't making a game for you.Nor should they.

I wish more games would shoot for a more specific and limited audience instead of the "try (and fail) to please everybody" approach.


agreed.. trying to please everyone ends up being an endless tug of war game and you usually end up dissapointing more in the end.. 

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg


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Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 2232

4/15/13 5:05:39 PM#51
Originally posted by will75

So it sounds like you're saying, the old people need to just go to the retirement home and deal with the way things are now?  While you try to back off that, that's your general tone of this article.


Guess what? You kids can get off my lawn and you're not getting your ball back.

SWTOR WoW and GW2's awful copying of DAOC rvr are options for you.

Enjoy them, and blizzard will also have another dumbed down mmo for you soon.

What I read was that gamers have changed, and regardless of whether or not the game is funded and well received, chances are slim that anyone will recapture that old feeling. People interact differently online than the used to, even within the same game.

That era of shared newness may never happen again. Mmos aren't unexplored territory anymore, people know hw to approach them and how to dissect them.

But you never know and we might all be surprised, we'll see


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Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

4/15/13 5:09:52 PM#52
Originally posted by Rusque
Originally posted by will75

So it sounds like you're saying, the old people need to just go to the retirement home and deal with the way things are now?  While you try to back off that, that's your general tone of this article.


Guess what? You kids can get off my lawn and you're not getting your ball back.

SWTOR WoW and GW2's awful copying of DAOC rvr are options for you.

Enjoy them, and blizzard will also have another dumbed down mmo for you soon.

What I read was that gamers have changed, and regardless of whether or not the game is funded and well received, chances are slim that anyone will recapture that old feeling. People interact differently online than the used to, even within the same game.

That era of shared newness may never happen again. Mmos aren't unexplored territory anymore, people know hw to approach them and how to dissect them.

But you never know and we might all be surprised, we'll see

Thats what I got out of it also. I guess everyone interprets things differently.


Novice Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1970

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

4/15/13 5:10:04 PM#53

We'll see how good this Camelot game really is if it releases.  So, only a few years to wait!  In the meantime, many other quality MMOs will come out with free trials and actual reviews so that people can try before they throw money and reason to the wind.


"Where do you see yourself in five years?"

"Logging into Camelot Unchained at its release!"

"The job position has been filled, I'm sorry."

El Psy Congroo


Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 344

4/15/13 10:36:22 PM#54
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

First, no worries. You admitted your mistake (5 vs 3) and I will happily reciprocate (within my usual "don't throw people under the bus").

Originally WAR did have a three-faction system in my vision document. We changed that to two factions due to certain issues (financial being one of them). It was a terrible mistake and since I was the head of the studio at that time, no matter what the reasons, I accept responsibility for that one. If I could take it back, I would but please know it wasn't due to "Three faction RvR, unthinkable!" :)

Thanks again for being willing to listen. 

Yeah I remember being so excited for WAR having three faction RvR. Sucked when I found out it wouldn't have it.


Regardless, it's great that you're taking out of your time to post here, present some facts and interact with the playerbase. It's very rare, and I wish more developers would follow-suit and speak up for themselves, considering how much BS gets thrown around in their name.


I, for one, am seriously looking forward to CU. I'm one of that "older crowd" that remembers and appreciates the way MMOs used to be (no rose-colored glasses here), having been weened on MMOs like Anarchy Online, Shadowbane, DAoC and FFXI.


I read your series of articles on the site, the Foundational Principles (or something like that lol) and I must sound ridiculous to anyone who can hear me as I find myself saying "yes!", "exactly!", "finally! someone who gets it!" and the like.


Who knows what the future will hold for CU and I maintain a degree of hopeful-but-cautious optimism for it.. Regardless, it's great to see someone stepping up, focusing on a target market, eschewing so many of the so-called "modern standards" people have come to expect and rely on in title after title, and going back to the genre's roots.


I'd all but given up on MMORPGs after seeing the turn FFXIV: ARR is taking. Yours, and a couple other projects, have renewed my hope a bit. It seems to me as though the veterans of the gaming industry (MMO and otherwise) are stepping up to take back the genre you/they helped to define. Damn good thing, too. This genre needs some serious help.


Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

4/15/13 11:25:29 PM#55

If this game actually does fail, then that would mean that the type of games I and many others have been waiting for just arent going to happen.

This small studio is taking a risk, betting everything on us, the players.  The rest of the industry has shifted to the "mainstream", making clones of clones of clones of simplified mindless "entertainment".

If we as players cant even support a single niche game then its all over.  If CU fails, we've failed.

For me at least, Im pretty sure this will be the last MMO for me if it doesnt work out.


Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

4/16/13 12:06:33 AM#56
Originally posted by Taldier

If we as players cant even support a single niche game then its all over.  If CU fails, we've failed.

For me at least, Im pretty sure this will be the last MMO for me if it doesnt work out.

No it doesn't. It means either there isn't a real market for this type of game like some think or that the marketing of the concept itself was horrid. Niche games can be made and supported. Did anyone really think that InIxile would get almost 4.5 million dollars for Torment? There are several things working against this game:


1. Regardless what some think Warhammer was an overall fiasco and is still fresh in many people's mind. Yeah...yeah...I was all EA's fault. -_-


2. DAOC was not as popular and well received as some around here seem to think. Not bashing the game but I know plenty of mmo players that don't even know what the hell that game was. Think what you want of them but the point remains. Some will say so what? Well my response would be apparently you need to appeal to some of those folks considering the funding wanted and how it is turning out.


3. Their efforts to market the KS so far have been forgettable and rather lazy. I've seen more effort put forth by people that supported the KS for god's sake.


4. You just had several KS complete for other games that some who would have invested in this game spent their money elsewhere. Really bad timing.


5. Two fucking million? What? Should have had a lower threshold and offered tiers for what would be added, fleshed out, etc. as they reached additional goal levels after getting the project funded. Said it before and I will say it again if they had done that they would have ended up with more money. I would even be willing to say they would have gone well over two million at that point.


TL:DR: This failing (if it does) proves nothing. There are several reasons this project may not get funded or turn out the way people want. Other projects have already proven that using a tool like KS will bring out the supporters if they feel it is worthwhile and promising.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.


Novice Member

Joined: 5/08/06
Posts: 54

4/16/13 12:13:04 AM#57

Yup agree, that just about sums up why ppl r usually whining on these forums.

There cannot be a one game suits all, in my view niche b2p games would dominate the mmo industry.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 318

4/16/13 12:29:56 AM#58
Originally posted by Tayah

If the article were written by someone that had played the early years of Ultima Online/Asheron's Call/DAOC/EQ I could take their point of view. The author seems a bit young and has probably been playing or writing about mmo's since WoW came out maybe?

The article to me, comes off as if telling the veteran mmorpg'ers to move on and get with the WoW clone mmo's grind program and deal with it. It seems the author is quite fine with mediocre mmorpg's, we veteran Mmorpg'ers, however, are NOT ok with mediocrity.

What's funny is you can go even now and look at DAOC or Asheron's Call or Ultima Online, even as old as they are, how the worlds feel alive, and there's so much to do in them without having the ! npc quest grinds. There's more content in those games and more innovation than most of today's mmorpg's. The communities in those games were wonderful before the games aged away.

Community and fun is what I seek, and you cannot have that with the larger mmo's these days, they're all WoW clones looking for hundreds of thousands to millions of players. There's no way for people to really get to know each other and enjoy their playtime in mmo's anymore. Today's mmo's feel like a second job when you log in. You log in, do dailies, que up for dungeon dailies with random people, barely even speak the whole time, finish your dailies, and you're done for the day.

I'm looking for community and fun, not a second job.

So much nostalgia talk that it actually took over your perception of reality...


Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/11
Posts: 31

4/16/13 1:31:21 AM#59

The thing about Daoc was it was the last time true community really happened in MMO's after they got greedy an chased the wow ideal with Toa,  the community fell apart because it was no longer the oldschool Daoc.

I REally hope they dont try it again. TOA was one of the most desasterous failures in MMO gaming, to rival SOE's screwup over SWG. I can only hope for CE that they dont get stupid an try to clone wow again, because all mmos have odne it, an each an everyone has been a joke, of simplisitic 5 year style gaming.


AC1 an Daoc, an even Vanguard in a way were the last time real MMO's were made, thye all had risk, they all had reward, an conciquence for your actions, nothing happened instantly shinys didnt rain from heaven jsut for logging in. But I dread to think how badly this will go if they think wow is the pinicle of gaming, because to many, it is the bottom of the barrel.

  User Deleted
4/16/13 3:01:21 AM#60
Originally posted by Edany

I would like to personally thank the author for letting me that the gaming world has 'moved on'. Yes, I am aware of that. Painfully, excruciatingly all too aware. The MMORPG genre has 'moved on' to:

  • single player quest leveling
  • daily quest grinding
  • gear grinding / token of the day grinding
  • random group and dungeon finders
  • zero tools for the community to hold ass-hats accountable
  • zero incentive for grouping
  • repetitive scripted PvE encounters
  • tacked on and lackluster instanced 5 minute 'scenarios' for PvP
  • unimaginative mirrored classes
  • balancing RvR / PvP to the scripted PvE encounters
The list of trite bullshit offered by the developers that have 'moved on' goes on and on and on. And with each iteration, the quality of both game and player have suffered tremendously for it.
The reality of it is, the 'old-school DAoC' community has never died, and it has never gone away. It is as vibrant as it ever was, and you can witness that just by the amount of community fan-sites, message boards, and even by the growing community of backers being developed on the Kickstarter page itself.
Implying that having that sense of community and Realm Pride again is a pipe dream because the genre has 'moved on' is pedantic at best. It isn't that these things do not or can not exisit again in the genre, it is that the genre has spent the last 10 years taking away the tools that the community used to foster that Realm Pride by giving us the trash of today's MMORPGs I listed above.
I'm glad you enjoyed DAoC's PvE, however, it seems that by admittedly focusing on that aspect of the game and staying off of the 'front-lines' you missed a lot of what DAoC offered while still managing to have fun and feel that you were contributing. Not many of today's MMOs can provide you with that. They haven't come close.
This is not DAoC. This is not DAoC 2. This is a place where a developer finally has the balls to let go of my hand while I cross the road with a group of my like-minded friends. It just so happens that the developer who introduced us to Realm Pride and RvR is the developer who is potentially offering all of us old-fucks an MMO home again - and thank God.

So true! Gos down like a poem :-)

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