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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Lessons from EverQuest that new Devs should take to heart

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50 posts found
  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

4/16/13 3:18:47 PM#21
Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

2) Following on the heels of multi-million-sale products named Warcraft, Warcraft II, Starcraft, and Diablo I/II

So you think titan will have this condition for success?

It certainly will following the heels of multi-milion-sales produces named Diablo 3, Starcraft 2 WoL and Starcraft 2 HotS.

  Dewm

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/29/09
Posts: 1350

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

4/16/13 4:16:03 PM#22
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

2) Following on the heels of multi-million-sale products named Warcraft, Warcraft II, Starcraft, and Diablo I/II

So you think titan will have this condition for success?

It certainly will following the heels of multi-milion-sales produces named Diablo 3, Starcraft 2 WoL and Starcraft 2 HotS.

 

I think that Titan will be a huge success.

 

even if 50% of the current WoW players decide to try this new mmo, they'll still have 4-6million subs right off the bat. Not to mention other people trying it who didn't care for WoW (myself included) another 500k. Plus the chinese gold sellers another million..

 

So yeah, I would honestly be supprised if Titan didn't have 5-8million subs on launch day.

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  Xthos

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2657

4/16/13 4:23:27 PM#23

I hope EQN will get away from more instancing, and back to some more open world dungeons and such, I would be fine with even a 50/50 mix, just getting tired of all the instancing in mmos, making them more lobby based games than mmos....Some people love it, but if EQN is supposed to be more sandbox, I think this is a logical thing, to get away from making it over instanced.  I would be fine with them having AAs at launch even, and much slower leveling than their is currently...No need to have hell levels again (2x xp to get through), but I wouldn't cry if they did, but it would probably be more limiting than they want to be.

 

It will not be long, in mmo terms, 3.5 months and we will be seeing something.

 

  Rydeson

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3922

4/17/13 4:20:11 AM#24

     As much as I understand where the OP is coming from, for me PoP expansion was the beginning of the end.. I do not believe in instant travel and thought the whole book thing was silly..  In addition there were too many changes coming down the pipe that were basically nerfing, or homogenizing the classes.. Too many whiners wanted to do everything from healing, kiting and CC'ing all in one class.. SOE caved in and the there went the game..  I further believe that instancing caused more harm, then good to the playing community.. Toss in the tier progression, and you created drama within guilds and friends because the game started to trun from being "inclusive" to "exclusivef"..  Sorry, you are not unlocked to play this zone.. good bye..

     I'm a huge EQ fan, but but and more buts.. the SoL expansion was the last best thing I saw before I pressed the cancel button on subscriptions.. Could EQ make a come back?  Sure if they have the desire to do so, but I don't see SOE putting a dime in this game, especially if EQ Next is coming soon..

  Monamia222

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 53

4/17/13 5:37:57 AM#25
But the drama and the exclusivity made for a reason to strive to get better.  A person had things to work toward and it was hard to advance.  Content lasted a lot longer then.  One thing I miss now is the way the vendors were.  When a person sold something it showed up in the vendors inventory for sale.   Also, crafting had value before the expansion that released potion vendors.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/17/13 5:45:29 AM#26
I like EQ pve compared to this post wow, everyone sat in cities queueing to go guild only instances setup the endgame.

But I prefer daoc and ac pve more as its a tad less elitist and way less hamster wheel with the gear progression. Also crafted gear didn't become obsolete in those two games.

I think if the EQ expansions had been more horizontal and less vertical like the daoc expansions I would have enjoyed EQ more.

I like AA though. A good themepark mmo should have both EQs aa system for pve AND daocs RR or planetsides cert system for pvp.
  Thane

Elite Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 2261

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

4/17/13 5:48:00 AM#27
Originally posted by Darkarai79
i have played WoW and EQ1/2, have raided and done so much grouping. i do prefer EQ1 and 2 over WoW only because the people in wow seem to have a mind of if your not hardcore GTFO lol so that ruined it for me. eq1 and 2 ive never had an issue with.02 cents. expenasion wise. i think eq1 has done a splendid job up to PoP. after that nope not at all. in EQ2 when bought the new Velious expansion pack, i was stoked i just finished the last Xpac and then all of a sudden i had trouble fighting trash mobs until i got a piece of gear fro ma random quest ? thats where eq2 kinda sucked. EQ1 is getting that way too i hear. 

so, you think EQ qas a better game because you had a better guild?

some people's logic is so flawed...

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/17/13 5:54:31 AM#28
Xthos

I'm currently playing ps2. Eqn will use the same engine. It's certainly an engine that can deliver a zero instance game in the vein of vanilla EQ, pre catacombs daoc or ac.

Way ps2 works there are 3 continents per server. Each continent supports 2000 players, and each continent is a zone, but NOT an instance.

Now Eqn will have to handle things ps2 doesn't like mobs and their ai.
But then it won't have to handle things like bullet tracing and probably real time combat.

So I think its an engine that could deliver an instance if they chose to do so. And I hope they do. No instances would be a big selling point for a lot if us older gamers and make the game vastly different from the glut of wow clones out there.

As a daoc vet I'm more looking forwards to Eqn than TESO. TESO looks 80% wow / 20% gw2 to me.
  bingbongbros

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/21/10
Posts: 677

4/17/13 6:14:34 AM#29

All of the expansions the OP listed as a good thing other devs should learn from EQ1 is literally the worst expansions the game ever released.

 

All of those expanions completely decimated the core game of what EQ1 originally was.  And destroyed the community.

 

LDoN - the creation of instances and the grind for commendations for gear = ghost town leveling zones for each level of adventure camp quests.

 

SoL - added AA's which were good, also added the Bazaar which completely gutted the community trading in the Commonlands Tunnel.

 

PoP- added PoK and all those god damn books that instantly teleported you to any city in the world so wiz/druids had no more business being a taxi.  Also killed off any reason to go to your actual home town or travel since you could just go right to PoK and get EVERY SINGLE SPELL!!!!  Also added the ultra happy time raiding progression which consumed the game from that point on.  And all the other expansions after that just catered directly to that raiding treadmill and left the other parts of the game to rot.  Oh, and it also killed the god damn boats because the poorly tested expansion teleporting books broke them and the devs had no idea how it happened or how to fix it. 

 

So they added a dumbass gnome to teleport you across the oceans and killed my favorite part of the game.  Devs DO NOT FOLLOW THESE EXPANSIONS!!

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  Ikeda

Elite Member

Joined: 10/07/10
Posts: 2244

4/17/13 6:27:44 AM#30

I'm just not sold on this.  I remember EQ all too well.  If it were to launch today under the current conditions, I'm fairly sure it would be a marginalized game.no one would play it.  For all of our wooing, we've gone from our younger selves to our older selves.  I don't have the time or the commitment anymore to sit and spawn camp a mob for 72 hrs.  Especially considering it'd just be kill stealed on me after I waited my turn.

Yes, the gear was nice.  I remember working for everything in that game.  Hanging out in the tunnel.  Dying because I failed to notice a Trrrrraaaaaaaiiiiinnnn! Incoming on my position.

Sorry, I just don't think this would have that great of a market in today's MMOs.

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  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 8344

4/17/13 6:43:26 AM#31

All devs have learned from EQ, and not every game has to be level and gear based, which is all EQ is.

Yes I still play EQ1 been playing on and off since march 1999, and yes I have two level 100s.

EQ is still completely about levels/AA and most importantly gear. My lvl 100 mage with focused 96 pet can molo all group content and lots of Raid content (past expansions).

This creates a huge disparity where you see a player that is undergeared and without enough AA he simply cannot do some content period, and on the other hand I can breeze through stuff half asleep due to my gear and AAs. Its a very closed and limited system, with hard level and gear limits.

I think Devs have learned to build systems that are not solely based on levels and gear, and thats a good thing.

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11863

4/17/13 7:59:41 AM#32
Originally posted by bingbongbros

LDoN - the creation of instances and the grind for commendations for gear = ghost town leveling zones for each level of adventure camp quests.

LDON had instanced dungeons

but players still had to group together the old fashioned way and travel to the dungeon entrance

 

 LDON dungeons were no worse than WOW's instanced Classic dungeons  (before dungeon finder)

  Adamantine

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3523

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

4/17/13 8:22:42 AM#33

And suddenly I am happy that, in Vanguard, there isnt actually so much development going on.

Seriously, random drops replacing your hard earned raid gear from last expansion ? Nah, not seriously. I cant take that seriously. Thats someone out to give the players the middle finger.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/17/13 8:30:23 AM#34
Nadia

So a bad thing then, a slide towards "glorified lobby game"
  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

4/17/13 8:59:20 AM#35
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by bingbongbros

LDoN - the creation of instances and the grind for commendations for gear = ghost town leveling zones for each level of adventure camp quests.

LDON had instanced dungeons

but players still had to group together the old fashioned way and travel to the dungeon entrance

 

 LDON dungeons were no worse than WOW's instanced Classic dungeons  (before dungeon finder)

LDoNs were significantly better than WoWs classic dungeons, because there was a bit of randomness to them.  Mob placement was not always static and LDoN's really highlighted EQs great group mechanics.

While it started a bad trend, it remains one of the greatest expansions in MMO history.  It was my favroite era in any MMO ever because it emphasized the dungeon crawl, but not as a linear experience.  And socialization was at its peak during this expansion.

  Torik

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2350

4/17/13 9:45:39 AM#36
Originally posted by Adamantine

And suddenly I am happy that, in Vanguard, there isnt actually so much development going on.

Seriously, random drops replacing your hard earned raid gear from last expansion ? Nah, not seriously. I cant take that seriously. Thats someone out to give the players the middle finger.

Players generally do not like to be shown that they were being idiots who obsessed over meaningless pixels.  It hurts their egos.

Personally I found it empowering to ralize how silly I was obsessing about raid loot and gear progression.  I loved the freedom of not worrying about DKP and the random loot generator. I was no longer a slave to the raid progression system and could enjoy the game again.

  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

4/17/13 10:00:13 AM#37
Originally posted by Arclan

One reason WoW has maintained much higher sub levels than EQ, is the time between expansions, I think. Each expansion alienates a portion of players who perhaps feel they aren't 'keeping up.' With EQ this happened every six months. In WoW this happened every twenty-four months.


EQ literally alienated 99% of its players. Smart move there SOE.

 

This is why the game world must be big to start with. Star Wars Galaxies, for instance, was absolutely huge. There was plenty of room to get "lost". Their first expansion wasn't just some typical expansion of land and a new raid boss. It was an optional game-changer that added in a totally new realm of experience: space fight / space exploration / space pvp.

This same concept should apply to every MMO.

For a fantasy MMO, the first expansion should be something like an extremely deep "sea" experience. I'm not just talking about some player boat, but a ship that sails as if it is its own game, e.g., manning the wheel, plotting courses, battling waves and using the wind, battling gigantic sea creatures, discovering new islands or lands, the ability to hire NPCs that will sail your long voyages while you roam the ship, ability to "house" on your ship, real city ports for docking (no instances) etc.

 

Expansions need to be more than just the typical expansion of land.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/17/13 10:08:59 AM#38
Or you make your expansions horizontal like coh, daoc (except for toa), gw1 etc..
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2854

World > Quest Progression

4/17/13 10:16:06 AM#39
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Nadia

So a bad thing then, a slide towards "glorified lobby game"

 

A movement towards but very slightly.  It still took a long time to get gear so the there wasn't the frothing at the mouth like modern dungeons.  The "game" was still about adventuring with others and not speed of completion and mathematics .

  baphamet

Elite Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2862

110100100

4/17/13 10:18:11 AM#40


Originally posted by Arclan
One reason WoW has maintained much higher sub levels than EQ, is the time between expansions, I think. Each expansion alienates a portion of players who perhaps feel they aren't 'keeping up.' With EQ this happened every six months. In WoW this happened every twenty-four months.


EQ literally alienated 99% of its players. Smart move there SOE.


IMO i don't think that is even close to the main reason wow has had higher sub levels.

EQ maintained their sub levels for a very long time even with how often they came out with expansions.

wow was the first mmo to become mainstream and brought in a whole heck of a lot of new players to the genre.

it was easier, casual/solo friendly,and it already had a huge bnet following.

yes wow's expansions took longer and were more polished, which made it a more quality product.

but that isn't even close to why it maintained higher sub levels compared to EQ.

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