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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » F2P Model heading for disaster an "apocalypse" in 3-5 years

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313 posts found
  ThomasN7

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6654

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

4/12/13 2:02:27 PM#41
Isn't Blizzard's Titan rumored to be f2p ? Highly doubt f2p is going out anytime soon. Check back in 10 years or so.
  Celcius

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/20/04
Posts: 932

4/12/13 2:02:42 PM#42
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by boxsnd
We will see if his prediction is right. I predict exactly the opposite. F2P/B2P will flourish and P2P will die out with WoW.

I predict you are half right. I think the whole genre is going to be in trouble by then.

Business models are not the issue. pisspoor quality MMORPGs are the issue. Create a quality product and people will pay for it. Once you have a quality product, you can then figure out the best business model. But we can all see how dollar signs have driven this industry since the (anomalous) success of WoW. Developers have lost sight of why gamers play and have zeroed in on their wallets. It shows.

MMORPGs weren't originally mainstream games. I believe they will eventually either die out or return to their roots. I also think there will be forks. Gw2 could potentially be the pioneer to such a fork....A hybrization from action games. But in the end, I don't think they will be what we call(ed) MMORPGs

There has not been too many good MMOs for sure. You are right, but I think we are reaching the tail end of that cycle. GW2 has been a huge success -- the biggest since WoW-- and is seeing more initial success then WoW did initially as well. A big reason for this is the B2P model. I think that is the direction "AAA" quality MMOs will go. Games like TESO and Wildstar look to be promising. I think that the future of this genre is fine, but I also think that there will be more quality games coming. From my current perspective the only thing that could screw up TESO and Wildstar at this point is...a sub model. I mean just look at Rift. It was a solid game with loads of content and even one of the biggest MMO expansions yet, but it is still starting to go down the route of F2P. If it started as B2P I think it would have done much better and have a far bigger audience. 

  observer

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/05
Posts: 2223

First came pride, then envy.

4/12/13 2:04:17 PM#43
Originally posted by Fearum
[mod edit]

Subscription models are even worse.  You have to pay monthly for a service, after the initial purchase of the product.  And if you don't like it, well, too bad, because you aren't allowed to play the game anymore if you're not paying.  I'm guessing you never paid for services such as, television, phone, or isp., because if you did, you would know how their services work., and they aren't always good.  Let's not forget the competition either, where there is either none or services just as bad the one you don't want.  LOL silly consumers indeed.

  Horusra

Elite Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2204

4/12/13 2:07:03 PM#44
Originally posted by observer
Originally posted by Mkilbride

Great interview. Really convinced me. Put 110$ “Young Her” most I’ve ever spent on a game.

I’ve played pretty much every MMO to date, excluding ones not in English(and some that aren’t), and nothing beats Pay 2 play quality.

GW2 disappointed me…GW1 was one of my favorite games ever…GW2 I regret buying.

GW1 & GW2 are buy-to-play, not f2p.

F2P won't go away.  It's here to say, because it works.  It basically an extended trial version of the game.

B2P and F2P is really not that different.  Many games that are labeled F2P you still have to buy content much like GW and then you can play for no subscription.  Also with cash shops in GW the line gets blurred even more.

  Valentina

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/28/06
Posts: 1661

4/12/13 2:07:10 PM#45

Because his track record for long term success in subscription MMO's is so great, right?

 

F2P is not going to die in 3-5 years. I used to be a subscription purist, myself. Then I realized it's really not viable in today's economy & market, and the least appealing thing ever to the current generation of consumers. If anyhting, there will be an evolution somewhere down the line, but I think buy to play is the future of online gaming for a good long while.

  Mkilbride

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/01/07
Posts: 617

4/12/13 2:10:33 PM#46
Originally posted by Valentina

Because his track record for long term success in subscription MMO's is so great, right?

 

F2P is not going to die in 3-5 years. I used to be a subscription purist, myself. Then I realized it's really not viable in today's economy & market, and the least appealing thing ever to the current generation of consumers. If anyhting, there will be an evolution somewhere down the line, but I think buy to play is the future of online gaming for a good long while.


Uh

 

His track record is great. Both DAOC & Warhammer are both still using a sub model, and appear to be making enough money to not be taken offline.

 

So I'd say yeah.

Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  Kinh021

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/09/13
Posts: 25

4/12/13 2:10:33 PM#47

How the free to play games has to do with low quality?

Nobody knows Path of Exile?

And if companies adopt the model free to play is because their customers are not as loyal as well.

  Karelia

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/12
Posts: 688

4/12/13 2:10:33 PM#48
then make really good and complete mmo's that will attract players and make them pay a sub. we all have payed subs for many years but all the latest releases sucks big time or at least dont justify a sub. make a proper mmo and you will see if ppl wants to pay or not.
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5745

4/12/13 2:11:08 PM#49
Originally posted by Xobdnas

I think MMORPGers, the old school core ones are smart enough to ignore these silly things. Give us cash or you can't have a bank slot! It's getting sickening. So I buy the product, then I pay you again to "unlock" all the stuff inside. WTF.

Yeah, not like the more appealing "Give us cash or we'll lock you out of our damn servers."  We really loved you up until the point you stopped lining our pockets with recurring fees.  You know those recurring fees Arena Net has proven over the last 7 years with Guild Wars aren't required for sustainability.

So I buy the product (box fee) and then I have to pay you again, every month forever, to "unlock" access to all the stuff inside.  WTF is right.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Horusra

Elite Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2204

4/12/13 2:11:46 PM#50
The problem I see for P2P games is with how flighty the current market is.  With so many choices the fact I have lay down $15 a month to play your game is a lot more commitment than a lot of people want to make.  Yeah the amount might not be a lot but for a lot of people people they would rather try 50 "free" games than pay for more than 1 sub game also with sub games you have to usually buy the initial game.  Now if the game was "free" but you have to sub it might be different.  I would be more will it try more games if I only needed to invest $15 for one month to try it.  Then if I hate it I am only out $15 not box + sub price.
  Mysk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/18/03
Posts: 982

4/12/13 2:12:23 PM#51
Originally posted by dotdotdash

He may well be right, even if he's being a tad dramatic about it.

I don't think the model is heading to an apocalypse. I think the market will become saturated with F2P titles - if it isn't already - and that will initially be a better thing for consumers. F2P titles have a long way to go in terms of quality. Eventually, of course, we'll see few titles coming to the fore. Many will fail quickly as the "better" games monopolise the player base. The market will normalise, in the same way the P2P market has normalised.

Also, the F2P model will likely give way largely to the B2P model. Ethical microtransactions will be used as a point of growth for a few years yet. Add that to the fact that it is "THE" traditional model of payment... for pretty much everything... and it seems like the safest bet long term for everyone concerned.

And that's what I'd say to Mark and his plans for CU. I'm not going to play it. It's that simple. I'm not going to play it because I'm not a moron. Playing an MMO for more than a few weeks removes your ability to apply yourself to any worthwhile pursuit in life. If it's a choice between reading, and paying a subscription to play your game... reading wins. Also, the average person is feeling the pinch right now, and it's only going to get worse. By offering a subscription, you are asking for a long term commitment. You are also competing with other subscription services... and regular bills. Seems shortsighted, if you ask me. Merely hastening the demise of the system that allows you to do it, really. Better to comply with change so that you're in a position to impact it, than to struggle blindly to peddle the old nonsense.

I was giong to make a new post to the thread, but you've said essentially everything that I was going to say.  The guy's rhetoric is unnecessary and comes across unbalanced.


I probably don't follow the threads that I post in. If you want me to see a response then feel free to PM me.

  Mkilbride

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/01/07
Posts: 617

4/12/13 2:12:38 PM#52
Originally posted by Kinh021

How the free to play games has to do with low quality?

Nobody knows Path of Exile?

And if companies adopt the model free to play is because their customers are not as loyal as well.

Don't use Path of Exile as "high quality" stuff.

 

The animations, art assets, and skills are all free-use stuff. It's pretty "meh" quality, it makes a nice picture.

 

It's great for a free ARPG...but there are much, much better ones out there, that you can buy.

 

I've followed POE for a year now and played abit myself...but the game is so boring. It has nothing going for it except that people who hate Diablo 3 play it.

Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  botrytis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2519

4/12/13 2:12:42 PM#53

If they have a subscription model, then they ought to put in more updates, patches, etc then the F2P and B2P games. Rift had issues that took a long time to fix but they DID put out quite a bit of content. The other P2P can't say the same, what do you get with a P2P that you don't get with the others? If nothing or similar is the answer, then the P2P is doomed.

 

Servers are more stable and last longer (reads needs less maintenance) than than they used to. This is not an excuse any more to charge a sub, if others can do it to the same level.

 

The article writer has an axe to grind and he is delusional if he thinks F2P is doomed.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Fearum

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 1090

4/12/13 2:14:13 PM#54
Originally posted by Celcius
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by boxsnd
We will see if his prediction is right. I predict exactly the opposite. F2P/B2P will flourish and P2P will die out with WoW.

I predict you are half right. I think the whole genre is going to be in trouble by then.

Business models are not the issue. pisspoor quality MMORPGs are the issue. Create a quality product and people will pay for it. Once you have a quality product, you can then figure out the best business model. But we can all see how dollar signs have driven this industry since the (anomalous) success of WoW. Developers have lost sight of why gamers play and have zeroed in on their wallets. It shows.

MMORPGs weren't originally mainstream games. I believe they will eventually either die out or return to their roots. I also think there will be forks. Gw2 could potentially be the pioneer to such a fork....A hybrization from action games. But in the end, I don't think they will be what we call(ed) MMORPGs

There has not been too many good MMOs for sure. You are right, but I think we are reaching the tail end of that cycle. GW2 has been a huge success -- the biggest since WoW-- and is seeing more initial success then WoW did initially as well. A big reason for this is the B2P model. I think that is the direction "AAA" quality MMOs will go. Games like TESO and Wildstar look to be promising. I think that the future of this genre is fine, but I also think that there will be more quality games coming. From my current perspective the only thing that could screw up TESO and Wildstar at this point is...a sub model.

I think your wrong and the millions of players still playing WoW agree. People don't care what the pay model is as long as the game is good and keeps them playing. Your trying to factor in this current crop of failed mmo's that had to go to F2P to try and recoup some of the money they lost from bad decisions, yes there will always be a few die hard fans that stick around buying stuff from the cash shops, but doesnt that make the game a niche game?

B2P is a funny model, your basically paying a box price for a F2P model game. Now you say that was a huge success, how are you judgeing this huge success? It might have been from launch, but this genre isnt about quick money making titles, it used to be a marathon and about longevity.

  Falstaff

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/15/04
Posts: 61

4/12/13 2:14:19 PM#55

  Celcius

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/20/04
Posts: 932

4/12/13 2:16:03 PM#56
Originally posted by observer
Originally posted by Fearum

F2P is garbage, it came about to try and save games that nobody was willing to pay for because they were horrible. After the 14 day free trials failed for some of them they just went a step further in trying to bait players to stick around longer and buying a piece of the game at certain intervals.  

B2P is even worse, they are making you pay for a F2P model game. LOL silly consumers, you make me laugh.

Subscription models are even worse.  You have to pay monthly for a service, after the initial purchase of the product.  And if you don't like it, well, too bad, because you aren't allowed to play the game anymore if you're not paying.  I'm guessing you never paid for services such as, television, phone, or isp., because if you did, you would know how their services work., and they aren't always good.  Let's not forget the competition either, where there is either none or services just as bad the one you don't want.  LOL silly consumers indeed.

Yeah its kind of funny that someone claims they are making you pay for a F2P model game after an initial purchase on B2P and there has been like 3 B2P games. Guild Wars 1, which did not even have microtransactions until after the (2nd?) expansion, GW2 which has the most generious cash shop out there which does not provide any gameplay advantage whatsoever and lets you get everything without paying a cent, TSW which only makes you pay for small content packs, and Defiance which only lets you pay for cosmetic stuff and minor exp boosts. 

Meanwhile you have games like WoW that make you pay 25$ for a server transfer, 10$ FOR A NAME CHANGE, 25$ for mounts,ect. On top of this, the game has a sub. Sure some of this stuff is in B2P games, but you don't have to pay a sub in addition to the option of getting this stuff.

This poster has it right. MMOs are a service. We don't pay them to keep the lights on. We pay them to provide us with stuff to do. If I have to pay 15$ a month I expect a service that provides me with stuff to do every month. If I have a monthly payment for the YMCA and I go there to find it is "closed" during the day I am going to be pissed off. MMOs have downtime for patches and such, which is mostly acceptable in the same way that you cant go to the YMCA when it is closed. If they never cleaned the equipment, upgraded the equipment, or cleaned the building it would be just as unacceptable as not having content on a monthly basis. 

  mari3k

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/13
Posts: 146

4/12/13 2:19:52 PM#57

looooool .... of course he thinks so, since his c.u. model will be ptp. 

For me, buy to play with no subs , DLCs and (non-ptw) micro is the future. I will not play another sub bases mmo or limited ptw-ftp mmos.

 

Step in the arena and break the wall down

  Mkilbride

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/01/07
Posts: 617

4/12/13 2:20:00 PM#58

P2P games that are still P2P; regardless of success, are still turning a profit enough to not go F2P;

 

Rift
WoW(Obviously)
FFXI
Dark Age of Camelot
Warhammer: Age of Reckoning(yeah, it's not F2P! Haha)
Eve Online
FFXIV
Asherons Call
Darkfall

Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  Rthuth434

Novice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 367

4/12/13 2:24:39 PM#59
Originally posted by Mkilbride
Originally posted by Valentina

Because his track record for long term success in subscription MMO's is so great, right?

 

F2P is not going to die in 3-5 years. I used to be a subscription purist, myself. Then I realized it's really not viable in today's economy & market, and the least appealing thing ever to the current generation of consumers. If anyhting, there will be an evolution somewhere down the line, but I think buy to play is the future of online gaming for a good long while.


Uh

 

His track record is great. Both DAOC & Warhammer are both still using a sub model, and appear to be making enough money to not be taken offline.

 

So I'd say yeah.

 

you left out that any type of game developement investment of any worth has ceased for both games ages ago. almost immediately for WAR. they're making literal peanuts on both games, while spending nothing but the light bill.

  Celcius

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/20/04
Posts: 932

4/12/13 2:24:53 PM#60
Originally posted by Fearum
Originally posted by Celcius
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by boxsnd
We will see if his prediction is right. I predict exactly the opposite. F2P/B2P will flourish and P2P will die out with WoW.

I predict you are half right. I think the whole genre is going to be in trouble by then.

Business models are not the issue. pisspoor quality MMORPGs are the issue. Create a quality product and people will pay for it. Once you have a quality product, you can then figure out the best business model. But we can all see how dollar signs have driven this industry since the (anomalous) success of WoW. Developers have lost sight of why gamers play and have zeroed in on their wallets. It shows.

MMORPGs weren't originally mainstream games. I believe they will eventually either die out or return to their roots. I also think there will be forks. Gw2 could potentially be the pioneer to such a fork....A hybrization from action games. But in the end, I don't think they will be what we call(ed) MMORPGs

There has not been too many good MMOs for sure. You are right, but I think we are reaching the tail end of that cycle. GW2 has been a huge success -- the biggest since WoW-- and is seeing more initial success then WoW did initially as well. A big reason for this is the B2P model. I think that is the direction "AAA" quality MMOs will go. Games like TESO and Wildstar look to be promising. I think that the future of this genre is fine, but I also think that there will be more quality games coming. From my current perspective the only thing that could screw up TESO and Wildstar at this point is...a sub model.

I think your wrong and the millions of players still playing WoW agree. People don't care what the pay model is as long as the game is good and keeps them playing. Your trying to factor in this current crop of failed mmo's that had to go to F2P to try and recoup some of the money they lost from bad decisions, yes there will always be a few die hard fans that stick around buying stuff from the cash shops, but doesnt that make the game a niche game?

B2P is a funny model, your basically paying a box price for a F2P model game. Now you say that was a huge success, how are you judgeing this huge success? It might have been from launch, but this genre isnt about quick money making titles, it used to be a marathon and about longevity.

The millions of people playing WoW are playing WoW because they have been playing it forever. They are commited to the game, invested to it, and that won't go away anytime soon. As far as the rest of us who play other --newer games, this is not the case. The rest of the industry (which at this point is far bigger then WoW) is constantly jumping from game to game. There are a few who stick around with their sub based MMOs, but for the most part they are sticking with F2P / B2P games. GW2 is a huge success and you are just blinding yourself with World of Warcraft if you can't see this. Just look up some NC Soft earnings reports. They are making the company more money then ever because of it. 

Your ignorance of the B2P model is apparent here. A f2p game restricts you, alot of times on content, whereas a B2P game does not. You buy GW2 and you get the whole game. You don't have to pay a cent. You can see and play all the content there is completely for free. That is not a F2P model. F2P models restrict your ability to play the game the way you want to or restrict the amount of content available to you. 

The fact that they lost subs, once again, after an expansion launched shows just how well that game is doing. Honestly, the game is going to continue to lose subs every quarter just as it did after Cata. Every expansion they will get back some, but I expect it won't be for long. 

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