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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Fun and challenge should exist before endgame

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103 posts found
  Panzerbase

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 431

4/10/13 5:25:38 PM#41
Originally posted by Aelious
Because everyone wants to save the princess as soon as they can, to "beat" the game. It's completly missing the point of MMORPGs IMO but way more people have gotten into MMOs from consoles than from D&D and books. This has made the idea of the journey second priority.

It's a mathmatical equation that will never make sense to me. Years of funding, writing and world generation to have it trivialized in one month lol. Once a big name can attract people to a game longer than one month till endgame I think something unexpected will happen:

More players will actually stick around to play the game that took years to make rather than a huge drop.

Don't bring up WoW. If WoW was released right now it wouldn't do nearly as well.

Wow is what defined now in terms of mmo's.

  kabitoshin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/16/12
Posts: 712

4/10/13 5:27:02 PM#42
Most fun and challenging game is Guild Wars 1 for me. Getting GWAMM will make you go insane.
  kjempff

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 695

Make worlds not stories

4/10/13 5:56:27 PM#43

Endgame. The phrase makes me so tiered. Why are we stuck with this sad model of progressing to max level, then progressing to max geared - Eq did it elegantly with alternative experience, but there are so many other ways to avoid getting trapped in the silly endgame model; we just need some devs to do it.

 

First and most obvious things that creates endgame are levels and max levels, further worsened when those levels pass too fast. Something that strangely never caught on are skill based systems instead of level based, but there are other ways, such as having to earn/quest for a skill/spell, reducing the importance of levels, making virtually limitless levels/skilllevels by introducing dimishing returns on xp/skills or whatever.

 

Then the way gear is designed to certain levels and needs to be replaced constantly, it undermines the need to go and do a long quest or something that requires efford. Again there are many ways to counter this, gear that can be passed on (not BoE/BoP), gear that needs to be trained with, gear that is level independents in various ways and so on.

 

What stand in the way of all these solutions is balancing, and balancing is to some degree linked to pvp and solo centric game play. It is hard to make a balanced advanced system, and it will loose some players to the lack of simplicity. But it is what we need some developer to do, or we will be stuck with the engame model that has been perfected to death over the last 10 years.

 

"It is not the goal that is imporant, it is the road to the goal"

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

4/10/13 6:06:19 PM#44
Originally posted by Aelious
Quirhid

Name an MMO that has done well off of just boxes without additional funds from any other source.

GW.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

4/10/13 6:09:10 PM#45
Originally posted by Quizzical

But challenge and progression don't mix very well.  The way that combat is usually implemented, a given fight could be trivial if you're too high level or impossible if you're too low level.  How do you propose to get around that?

Levels are placebo anyway since you only go to the level 20 zone when you are level 20+/-2.  So let's drop levels entirely (eg: rescale players to level 20) and just forcus on that +/-2 level buff.  Players going into the zone can easy choose to take on a blessing (+2 effective level) or taboos (-2 to your effective level). 

You don't need to invent an excuse why easy/hard versions of the world exist since the handicap is entirely on the player.  The blessing buff may requrie a share of the loot to be tithed.  The taboo debuff may provide additional rewards for success.  (obviously the rewards can no longer be gear to increase your power since that would defeat the purpose of handicapping, but that's a seperate discussion we could get into)

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2435

World > Quest Progression

4/10/13 6:24:39 PM#46
No, GW has a cash shop just like GW2.
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2435

World > Quest Progression

4/10/13 6:33:14 PM#47
Waffleyone

I just seen your response about derailing and I will stop. I haven't seen your PM since I'm on my phone and the mobile version does not notify you.

I hope you have also sent PMs to others as well. What started the chain reaction came from responding to your OP and was completly on topic. I should know better than to fall into thier trap since it happens a lot with specific posters.

My apologies and I will stay on topic if I decide to continue to post in this thread.
  User Deleted
4/10/13 6:38:39 PM#48
No point playing a game that isn't fun/stimulating to level in. Chances are if they can't get that much right, endgame isn't going to be any better I find.
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/10/13 6:54:56 PM#49
Originally posted by waffleyone

I disagree with you on both points here. A difficulty slider doesn't address challenge - combat in the leveling phase of MMORPGs is usually either 'you can win' or 'you cannot', and neither way is it challenging. I'm not suggesting that they lack in fun, I am suggesting that they lack in challenging fun.

Part of the problem with grouping in the leveling phase is that it further reduces the challenges. I loved fighting BAMs in Tera (Slayer/Greatsowrd class), and when a healer wanted to group with me I'd either do so for his benefit or not at all, because the challenge completely vanished as my mistakes didn't matter. When fighting monsters that are already trivial, all partying does is increase the speed at which you rip through them, turning the game into a thoughtless action adventure, something which the game was never suppsoed to be.

I guess you never played CoH then, because fights became extremely rewarding of tactical skill use when you chose the difficulty which was right at your skill threshold.  Eventually you'd get better and increase the difficulty further.

I mean it obviously assumes good mob design in the first place, which might be coloring your opinion (since several major MMORPGs have terrible mob design.)  You need each mob type to have some skill which lets you optimize against it -- so that when the difficulty is ramped up, successful optimization against that skill becomes the difference between success and failure.  (Which was more or less how CoH worked, except you'd have packs of mobs who each had their 1 skill, and you'd have to cleverly deal with each enemy skill to beat the hardest difficulty.)

Implying groups always reduce challenge is just wrong.  If you're on the higher end of the skill spectrum, grouping increases challenge.  If you're the tank, grouping allows you a much more dynamic control over your difficulty (pull bigger packs) which has an appropriate increase in reward (kill more faster) which typically isn't the case solo.  And finally, in most games raid (group) content is the most challenging in the game.  But yeah if you only take the silly version of "doing identical content with more players is easier" then sure grouping is easier.

  BahamutKaiser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 297

On hiatus for a while guys, MMOs still aren't interesting me.

4/10/13 6:59:17 PM#50
Character development is a nice feature, but it really doesn't serve well as a benchmark for progression. I can think of many fun RPGs, but not one of them do I remember needing to reach max level in order to succeed. Many of them found more challenge in underleveling, and most of them had level caps and character development far beyond the greatest challenges for the few completionists and those who like to wildly overpower their opponents.

That was a key feature i think they failed to bring from Diablo 2 to Diablo 3.

I think the lack of gameplay depth and reliance on prolonged character development as content is what drew MMOs into their original rut. With the original technology that was just improvising, but now we expect our games to meet more console standard play.

Now that the technology is there I think a return to form is in order. But in the OPs particular case, I don't see how the specific level of ones foe really matters. GW is a game where you challenge numbers of foes, not individual threats, it has been since the first. A lack of interest in low input battle and fighting singularly weak opponents is a separate concern. I'm fairly sure activities in GW2 are designed to scale with level, and PvP is standardized, and I don't even play the second installment. Just saying.

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

4/10/13 7:02:06 PM#51

Why should endgame exist?

 

Is it just to sell paid expansions like Guild Wars 2 or WoW?

 

It doesn't make sense on a variety of levels.  Can't get stronger no matter how many millions of centaurs I slay, but as soon as my credit card is charged, I can kill just a few more centaurs and get stronger again.

 

I'd prefer a fun game.  Not a fun game until endgame, or a fun endgame.  A game that is fun that you can't get to the end of.

 

That's just me, other people love digital treadmills.

El Psy Congroo

  Nekokeki

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/06
Posts: 74

4/10/13 7:04:52 PM#52
Originally posted by coretex666

What is the point of having everyone capped anyway.

Is there any other reason to it than balance in PvP?

Does MMORPG have to be a perfectly balanced e-sport?

In my world, no. I think that MMORPGs sacrifice way too much to provide space for competitive PvP. In fact, they sacrifice the RPG part for it which is why we are getting these arcade shallow MMOs.

They are not supposed to be FPS, they are supposed to be massive RPGs. What is the point of RPG where your character gets capped and does not progress anymore? At level CAP, these so called MMORPGs become similar to FPS in design. They are still nice to play now and then, but the immersion and seriousness are gone.

Either make max level hardly obtainable (years) or remove levels completely. This design does not make any sense.

"Endgame" has nothing to do in RPG.

Just my opinion.

There is a cap and it is obtainable, but your post reminds me of Phantasy Star Online, level cap is 200 :)  Lineage was pretty high and mighty to cap at as well wasn't it? 

  LuxferreGaming

Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/13
Posts: 12

4/10/13 8:44:21 PM#53
Well, this is one reason I have stopped playing MMORPG's; the game is usually garbage until endgame. Every MMO I have ever played provides little to no challenge, mostly not even at the endgame. I find PvPing extremely fun, but usually PvPing doesn't happen till endgame and I have to PvE to get to the PvP. I stick to games like SMITE, LoL, DoTa 2, and FPS games because you don't have to grind to get to the fun, and even then... the endgame might get boring fast.
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/10/13 9:25:11 PM#54
Originally posted by kadepsyson

Why should endgame exist?

Make a new game without endgame.

Watch players eventually get tired of it.

Add new types of gameplay for the bored high-level players.

Realize you've just created something they're going to call "endgame".

In short, endgame should exist to keep games fresh.  Few types of games are dynamic enough to remain fresh on their own (most of them use PVP as a form of UGC content to keep things fresh.)

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

4/10/13 11:52:03 PM#55
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

The problem with options is: if you can't do them well, you should not do them in the first place since it drags down the overall impression of the game. This was the reason for why GW2 did not create open PvP servers unlike many other games: they didn't think they had the time and resources to do Open PvP properly so they opted to not do it.

It was because many of the mechanics in the game wouldn't have worked in an open world PvP environment therefore the changes would've been much more complicated than "a simple rule change". It is the similar problem as with "Skyrim MMO": Many of Skyrim's features only work in a single player environment so simply allowing multiplayer wouldn't work very well if at all.

If you start thinking about it feature by feature, you'll notice the amount of difficulties and conflicts the devs must resolve. "Just make it multiplayer" or "just allow PvP" sounds easy, but things are rarely that simple.

 

Which is precisely what I said: they didn't thave the time and resources to do Open PvP properly. Just making a rule change would yield Open PvP but a very bad such.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

4/11/13 1:16:54 AM#56
Originally posted by Axehilt

Make a new game without endgame.

Watch players eventually get tired of it.

Add new types of gameplay for the bored high-level players.

Realize you've just created something they're going to call "endgame".

In short, endgame should exist to keep games fresh.  Few types of games are dynamic enough to remain fresh on their own (most of them use PVP as a form of UGC content to keep things fresh.)

Isnt this the tunnel-visioned unimaginative development process people argue against?

Why should new content be restricted to high-level players? How bout the thing you guys call "horizontal progression"? How bout soft-caps, ie that you can participate in everything before you hit maxlevel, but ofcourse your efficiency will "vary" ?

Is slapping another 20 statpoints on everything really the only solution just because it is the most simple one?

Flame on!

:)

  Jemcrystal

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1345

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

4/11/13 1:39:46 AM#57
Needs to be both endgame and fun along the way.  

http://s25.postimg.org/e4cys86xb/gw004.jpg

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

4/11/13 10:36:19 AM#58
Originally posted by Banaghran

Isnt this the tunnel-visioned unimaginative development process people argue against?

Why should new content be restricted to high-level players? How bout the thing you guys call "horizontal progression"? How bout soft-caps, ie that you can participate in everything before you hit maxlevel, but ofcourse your efficiency will "vary" ?

Is slapping another 20 statpoints on everything really the only solution just because it is the most simple one?

Unless previous content was botched in some way, it makes a lot more sense to put new stuff at the end of progression (where high-level players are bored) than earlier (where low-level players are still enjoying the old stuff -- because it's new to them.)

Plenty of games make the mistake of being too wide-open and watching their userbase bleed away as a result of overwhelming players with too much at once.  But if you ration things out properly, you create a game which is both simple and deep, which is the ideal.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

4/11/13 10:39:24 AM#59
Originally posted by Banaghran
Originally posted by Axehilt

Make a new game without endgame.

Watch players eventually get tired of it.

Add new types of gameplay for the bored high-level players.

Realize you've just created something they're going to call "endgame".

In short, endgame should exist to keep games fresh.  Few types of games are dynamic enough to remain fresh on their own (most of them use PVP as a form of UGC content to keep things fresh.)

Isnt this the tunnel-visioned unimaginative development process people argue against?

Why should new content be restricted to high-level players? How bout the thing you guys call "horizontal progression"? How bout soft-caps, ie that you can participate in everything before you hit maxlevel, but ofcourse your efficiency will "vary" ?

Is slapping another 20 statpoints on everything really the only solution just because it is the most simple one?

Flame on!

:)

It is probably not the only solution, but a solution that works. Is there a reason why this is a problem? Play up to end game. Finish the content. Stop. Wait for the next content release. Essentially it is like finishing a game and wait for a new one .. just that the "new" content is an expansion (or content release, or whatever you call it) and not   a new game.

If the content is fun, there is no issue. If the content is not fun, it does not matter if it is end-game content or not.

And i don't understand why people complains that leveling is not fun. If it is not, you should not play it. Find a game that is fun to level. That has nothing to do with whether there is an end-game or not.

  Banaghran

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

4/11/13 11:09:14 AM#60
Originally posted by Axehilt

Unless previous content was botched in some way, it makes a lot more sense to put new stuff at the end of progression (where high-level players are bored) than earlier (where low-level players are still enjoying the old stuff -- because it's new to them.)

Plenty of games make the mistake of being too wide-open and watching their userbase bleed away as a result of overwhelming players with too much at once.  But if you ration things out properly, you create a game which is both simple and deep, which is the ideal.

Only if you have a completely linear, vertical and whatnot progression, which was technically my whole point.

As for "simple and deep", you know, anyone can watch PA, but very few actually notice when they use words like "experientially different" or "meaningful choices", depth itself does not magically appear out of simplicity with some recoloring options thrown in :)

Flame on!

:)

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