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General Discussion  » [POLL] If TES:O Did Not Have AvAvA, Would You Play it?

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90 posts found
  Leiloni

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/12
Posts: 317

4/11/13 11:55:57 AM#21
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by Leiloni
Originally posted by meddyck
Without AvA, this would for me be a generic fantasy MMO based on an IP from other games I didn't play using mechanics I dislike (limited hotbar skills, no targeted healing). So no I wouldn't be thinking twice about it if it didn't have AvA.

You really prefer tab target healing? Staring at a UI playing whack a mole all day? In non targeting games, the healing allows you to not only see the fight, but actually be a part of it. It's much more fun and interactive. You should try a game like TERA (really the best at it) or even RaiderZ to see what non targeting healing is like. It's far far better. I will never ever go back to tab target.

I haven't played TERA or RaiderZ. I asked about PvP in TERA on a different forum recently and was told there was none until level cap. I can see how reticle-based healing could work in a PvE context. In fast paced PvP, you don't have time to locate a member of your group getting focus-fired and move your reticle onto them. You need to be able to immediately target that group member and heal him directly. The only way reticle-based targeting can work in that kind of RvR MMO is if TTK is extremely high so there is no urgency to target your group member and get him healed. But that's not something I like either. I may still try to deal with it in AvA in TESO particularly since I'm not planning on playing a healer there. But it's not my preferred mechanic.

Targeting your friendlies to heal them on the fly is actually not hard to tell you the truth. If you play a Priest you have one multi target lock on heal and an AoE lock on heal (so once you hover over your target it alows you to lock on to them so you don't miss); as well as several ground circle AoE heals with fixed locations, meaning you place your character close enough to the people you want to heal and everyone within the circle's radius gets healed. 

PvP healing is probably one of the most fun things about TERA's combat. But it's a different kind of gameplay altogether that's for sure.

Both TERA and RaiderZ are free and you don't even have to get all that far to get a feeling for how healing works in those games. TERA I'd play to 26 to get a feeling of some of them but you can even just create a level 1 toon and go through the tutorial, which puts you at level 20. So you can sit in the tutorial zone and play around with the skills for as long as you like. RaiderZ I'd play to maybe level 17 or so to get a feeling for how it works there as well. And hey, since ESO isn't out yet you have time to kill! ;)

 

 

  Leiloni

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/12
Posts: 317

4/11/13 11:57:09 AM#22
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by Leiloni
Originally posted by meddyck
Without AvA, this would for me be a generic fantasy MMO based on an IP from other games I didn't play using mechanics I dislike (limited hotbar skills, no targeted healing). So no I wouldn't be thinking twice about it if it didn't have AvA.

You really prefer tab target healing? Staring at a UI playing whack a mole all day? In non targeting games, the healing allows you to not only see the fight, but actually be a part of it. It's much more fun and interactive. You should try a game like TERA (really the best at it) or even RaiderZ to see what non targeting healing is like. It's far far better. I will never ever go back to tab target.

I haven't played TERA or RaiderZ. I asked about PvP in TERA on a different forum recently and was told there was none until level cap. I can see how reticle-based healing could work in a PvE context. In fast paced PvP, you don't have time to locate a member of your group getting focus-fired and move your reticle onto them. You need to be able to immediately target that group member and heal him directly. The only way reticle-based targeting can work in that kind of RvR MMO is if TTK is extremely high so there is no urgency to target your group member and get him healed. But that's not something I like either. I may still try to deal with it in AvA in TESO particularly since I'm not planning on playing a healer there. But it's not my preferred mechanic.

ESO healing is not reticle based either. It is AOE healing exclusively although some of the AoE is cone shaped and some may be ground-targetted. I also don't think it is either "group exclusive" nor player-limit capped.

To give tanks some extra healing, one of the properties inherent in heavy armor is +% to healing received.

Yea that's why I suggested also trying out RaiderZ because their Cleric's use mostly AoE and ground targeted heals. So between the two games you get a feeling for both types of non targeting healing methods.

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 1755

4/11/13 12:08:15 PM#23
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

I'd be interested in playing a TES MMO, but I'm not at all sure if I'll be playing this one.

In any MMO with a strong PVP focus, the PVE is inevitably affected by the requirements of PVP balancing, which usually results in limits being imposed on the things you can do in PVE (such as stuns and knockbacks).

+1.

I didn't mind pvp in my games up until in AoC they f**ked up pve classes because of the pvp whiners... since then I prefer my games with the least pvp possible for the sake of unaffected pve. So I'd poll to Other or No, since removing AvAvA wouldn't make TESO any better.

I mean even after the 'horrible' changes when the whole daoc-lover crowd went berserk, for me it was much more relevant what Maria said in her video with Garrett. It was about creature combat (and pve), and her first line was "since our game is so pvp-centered" ? c'mon, what the... thanks, but no thanks :)

 

My perfect TESO would be a LotRO-ish setting, with every TES game combined, nice storyline arch plus a helluva lot of exploration and crafting and character developement, and somewhere tucked away a separate area for pvp'ers to gank each other 24/7 without any influence to the outside and the rest of the game :) (if only the devs insisted to insert pvp at all) Sweet dreams from the time when the first news arrived that there will be a TES online...

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 1755

4/11/13 12:12:31 PM#24
Originally posted by Leiloni

Yea that's why I suggested also trying out RaiderZ because their Cleric's use mostly AoE and ground targeted heals. So between the two games you get a feeling for both types of non targeting healing methods.

I liked both my cleric and my cleric/def in RaiderZ... fun little game, only too grindy and as an rpg game it's... lol.

  DAS1337

Elite Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2305

4/11/13 12:13:16 PM#25

I believe people would be a lot happier without AvAvA, they just don't know it.  Most people don't know what they like, so it's hard to be surprised.

 

I feel that AvAvA could have been kept, without locking faction zones and making almost all of the people happier.

 

It starts with disbanding the megaserver idea.  This brings RP servers, PvP servers, PvE servers and hardcore servers back into the mix, which make a huge amount of people interested.  It brings server communities back as well, so you know who you are playing with.  It gets rid of annoying phases and instances and 'layers', which break up your groups and make the world feel less immersive.  I feel that Megaserver is just a tool for the developers.  It's likely far easier to manage and costs less money in the end to support the megaserver.  It's only a coincedence that is keeps the game world more active, even in the middle of the night.

 

The lore could have been changed from alliance wars to guild wars.  Offering deep story into the Mages Guild, Fighters Guild and Theives guild.  Based on your archtype chosen at character creation (Because I don't believe that needs changed), you may opt into a PvP war with the guilds if you join one.  This uses existing factions within the world that we all know and if people do not want to PvP, they do not have to join a guild.  People who do not choose to opt in will be normal PvE enabled players, who can go about their business in relative safety.  Those players can engage in PvP matchmaking, but not open world PvP.  The players who do opt in, will be forced to engage in open world PvP.  They will be permenantly flagged.  This makes the PvE'ers and PvP'ers happy, as well as the people who like a little in the form of matches.  

 

All areas should be open to all players.  You should be able to visit any area within the game, bottom line.  The world should have been designed with the idea of housing.  There's a very easy solution.  Not all will like it, but it's a compromise that I believe would be acceptable.  If the world were designed to have neighborhoods dotted around the landscape, you can have open world housing.  Those areas would lack NPC enemies and they would be plots of land that were first come, first serve.  While, being realistic, you could only house perhaps 20% - 30% or so of the server playerbase, it's still a start until new areas open up or later in the games lifespan, low level areas get inscreased housing.  You can circumvent that flaw by adding instanced housing to two other areas of the game off the top of my head.  Those areas are keeps and fortresses that you clan holds.  These will have a limited number available and they wll be temporary, but can be used.  The other areas is cities.  Every city can have an Inn.  Those inns will provide the majority of player housing.  They will be instanced, and there will be different 'housing tiers' available depending on how much rent you are willing to pay.  You can decorate these any way you like.  So now everyone can have a place to live in what should have been built as a virtual world and not a gear grinding treadmill.

 

I won't get into some of the smaller stuff.  Those are the three biggest issues that I see on these boards and in general.  I believe they would have made this game far better.  There is almost no downside to these suggestions.  Oh well, I guess I'll have to wait for some ill-funded indie company to make a good game.  Because I'm damn sure that I won't get it from companies like this who sell out for the all mighty dollar.

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2400

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

4/11/13 12:18:21 PM#26

No because the game would be to one-dimensional.

 

I'd still play it but I would get burnt out of doing the same stuff and would likely find myself quitting after the first month or 2.  There jsut wont be enough content to satiate the average gamer.  Hence the reason why I continue to support the AvA style conflict ontop of an amazing Elder Scrolls Experience.

 

Additing something ontop of something does not take away from it, it enchances it and makes it better but you'll have a bunch of whiney "realists" saying it isnt a TES game when something is added onto the game but they are clearly wrong.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3525

4/11/13 12:23:19 PM#27
Originally posted by Leiloni
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by Leiloni
Originally posted by meddyck
Without AvA, this would for me be a generic fantasy MMO based on an IP from other games I didn't play using mechanics I dislike (limited hotbar skills, no targeted healing). So no I wouldn't be thinking twice about it if it didn't have AvA.

You really prefer tab target healing? Staring at a UI playing whack a mole all day? In non targeting games, the healing allows you to not only see the fight, but actually be a part of it. It's much more fun and interactive. You should try a game like TERA (really the best at it) or even RaiderZ to see what non targeting healing is like. It's far far better. I will never ever go back to tab target.

I haven't played TERA or RaiderZ. I asked about PvP in TERA on a different forum recently and was told there was none until level cap. I can see how reticle-based healing could work in a PvE context. In fast paced PvP, you don't have time to locate a member of your group getting focus-fired and move your reticle onto them. You need to be able to immediately target that group member and heal him directly. The only way reticle-based targeting can work in that kind of RvR MMO is if TTK is extremely high so there is no urgency to target your group member and get him healed. But that's not something I like either. I may still try to deal with it in AvA in TESO particularly since I'm not planning on playing a healer there. But it's not my preferred mechanic.

ESO healing is not reticle based either. It is AOE healing exclusively although some of the AoE is cone shaped and some may be ground-targetted. I also don't think it is either "group exclusive" nor player-limit capped.

To give tanks some extra healing, one of the properties inherent in heavy armor is +% to healing received.

Yea that's why I suggested also trying out RaiderZ because their Cleric's use mostly AoE and ground targeted heals. So between the two games you get a feeling for both types of non targeting healing methods.

I like this way better too and I often play a healer in most MMOs. My all time favorite was my Warrior Priest in Warhammer: you got healed because you were near me and whenever I bashed people over the head with my 2-hd mace, heals happened. Now that's healing without being someonee's robot bitch

  Ghavrigg

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/10/12
Posts: 609

4/11/13 12:27:32 PM#28
I actually have no interest whatsoever in the PvP aspects of the game at the moment. I'm all about the PvE.
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16615

4/11/13 12:29:13 PM#29
Originally posted by azzamasin

No because the game would be to one-dimensional.

 

I'd still play it but I would get burnt out of doing the same stuff and would likely find myself quitting after the first month or 2.  There jsut wont be enough content to satiate the average gamer.  Hence the reason why I continue to support the AvA style conflict ontop of an amazing Elder Scrolls Experience.

 

Additing something ontop of something does not take away from it, it enchances it and makes it better but you'll have a bunch of whiney "realists" saying it isnt a TES game when something is added onto the game but they are clearly wrong.

And I would rebut and say it only "adds to it" if it truly adds anything. As opposed to just smothering the thing it was added to.

 

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 1755

4/11/13 12:29:46 PM#30
Originally posted by Iselin

I like this way better too and I often play a healer in most MMOs. My all time favorite was my Warrior Priest in Warhammer: you got healed because you were near me and whenever I bashed people over the head with my 2-hd mace, heals happened. Now that's healing without being someonee's robot bitch

Same with the bear shammy in AoC, beside the tank, wrecking the armour of the boss, and every time I bash his head with my 2H hammer the party in an average radius around got Renewal (small HoT) :)

  DAS1337

Elite Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2305

4/11/13 12:32:59 PM#31
Originally posted by azzamasin

No because the game would be to one-dimensional.

 

I'd still play it but I would get burnt out of doing the same stuff and would likely find myself quitting after the first month or 2.  There jsut wont be enough content to satiate the average gamer.  Hence the reason why I continue to support the AvA style conflict ontop of an amazing Elder Scrolls Experience.

 

Additing something ontop of something does not take away from it, it enchances it and makes it better but you'll have a bunch of whiney "realists" saying it isnt a TES game when something is added onto the game but they are clearly wrong.

So, in your opinion, content is AvAvA?  So.. the only games you've ever played is DAoC and GW2?  I highly doubt that.

 

News flash, there are other things that you can do in a game rather than PvP.  

 

Call of Duty is screaming your name.

  pantheron

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/08
Posts: 172

4/11/13 12:39:59 PM#32
I'd have probably bought and been on the hype train if it had no AvAvA

I play MMOs for the Forum PVP

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 2888

For the Queen!

4/11/13 12:42:32 PM#33
When this game was first announced the first thing that popped into my mind was PvP and how it would work.  I thought that it would be like Skyrim, where you started out nuetral with everyone, and as you progressed you gained and lost reputations with  the numerous factions.  Players that were friendly with the opposite faction would be able to kill each other in the open world, but I guess how they've done it is still ok.

  DAS1337

Elite Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 2305

4/11/13 12:44:35 PM#34
Originally posted by Gravarg
When this game was first announced the first thing that popped into my mind was PvP and how it would work.  I thought that it would be like Skyrim, where you started out nuetral with everyone, and as you progressed you gained and lost reputations with  the numerous factions.  Players that were friendly with the opposite faction would be able to kill each other in the open world, but I guess how they've done it is still ok.

This would have fit the lore as well I think.  It would have felt like an ES game.  

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1828

4/11/13 12:45:15 PM#35
Absolutely.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3525

4/11/13 12:48:10 PM#36
Originally posted by azzamasin

No because the game would be to one-dimensional.

 

I'd still play it but I would get burnt out of doing the same stuff and would likely find myself quitting after the first month or 2.  There jsut wont be enough content to satiate the average gamer.  Hence the reason why I continue to support the AvA style conflict ontop of an amazing Elder Scrolls Experience.

 

Yup. That's how I feel too. No one has ever been able to satisfy the appetites of those who live for PvE content consumption. They always pig-out on it faster than they can serve it.

It's always much better to design a game system that has replayability than constantly adding content. Is AvA in this game going to be worth doing over and over again? Hard to tell at this point. But if it's done right, it has the potential for having much more long-lasting appeal than waiting for yet another top-gear-entry only raid content that is almost identical to the previous content except the bad guys have different names and their bad-shit-on-the-floor-that-must-be-avoided-with-just-a-jump-to-the-left-and-then-a-step-to-the-right is a different shade of puce.

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1828

4/11/13 12:49:44 PM#37
Originally posted by Po_gg
Originally posted by Iselin

I like this way better too and I often play a healer in most MMOs. My all time favorite was my Warrior Priest in Warhammer: you got healed because you were near me and whenever I bashed people over the head with my 2-hd mace, heals happened. Now that's healing without being someonee's robot bitch

Same with the bear shammy in AoC, beside the tank, wrecking the armour of the boss, and every time I bash his head with my 2H hammer the party in an average radius around got Renewal (small HoT) :)

More importantly, it was the other players' responsibility for once to place themselves around the warrior priest and not the healers'.  DPSs that were too stupid to stay in range of or near the healer died and the party wouldn't blame the healer, a refreshing change from typical MMO groups.

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1828

4/11/13 12:54:13 PM#38
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by azzamasin

No because the game would be to one-dimensional.

 

I'd still play it but I would get burnt out of doing the same stuff and would likely find myself quitting after the first month or 2.  There jsut wont be enough content to satiate the average gamer.  Hence the reason why I continue to support the AvA style conflict ontop of an amazing Elder Scrolls Experience.

 

Yup. That's how I feel too. No one has ever been able to satisfy the appetites of those who live for PvE content consumption. They always pig-out on it faster than they can serve it.

It's always much better to design a game system that has replayability than constantly adding content. Is AvA in this game going to be worth doing over and over again? Hard to tell at this point. But if it's done right, it has the potential for having much more long-lasting appeal than waiting for yet another top-gear-entry only raid content that is almost identical to the previous content except the bad guys have different names and their bad-shit-on-the-floor-that-must-be-avoided-with-just-a-jump-to-the-left-and-then-a-step-to-the-right is a different shade of puce.

I can understand that having multiple play styles catered to, adds depth to a game.  The problem is that PvPers are never happy unless PvP is central to the game.  Otherwise, they whine about PvP being tacked on as an afterthought, when they should be happy to get any at all.  Every single MMO I have ever followed had PvPers whining about one thing or another, if it wasn't about primary representation in the game, then it was about class balance at the expense of the PvE game or believing they deserve better loot than regular adventurers and equal to raiders.

 

Even more insidiously is their constant push to funnel PvE players into PvP areas by tying it into PvE quests and rewards.  This is something I see them push for all the time, a nice constant flow of cannon fodder and easy pickings.

  sapphen

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 912

4/11/13 1:10:12 PM#39
Originally posted by baphamet

Originally posted by sapphen
I have been wanting to play a TES MMO since Oblivion, unfortunately AvAvA almost discourages me from playing it.

i don't see why, the pvp is totally optional and segregated from the rest of the game.

me personally, i would still try this game if it still had the option to pvp other than just battleground style pvp.

i mean, sure i could still play it without any pvp or endgame for a while but it wouldn't last long, that is for sure.

still probably wont last very long for me as far as mmo's go, but we will see.

Good for you!

Me personally, I would rather have the freedom of previous TES games than locked into a faction because of RvR.  I don't mind RvR at all but I think it's an awful system to substitute for the glory that is the Elder Scrolls franchise.... but that's just me and a topic for another thread.
  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3525

4/11/13 1:12:55 PM#40
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by azzamasin

No because the game would be to one-dimensional.

 

I'd still play it but I would get burnt out of doing the same stuff and would likely find myself quitting after the first month or 2.  There jsut wont be enough content to satiate the average gamer.  Hence the reason why I continue to support the AvA style conflict ontop of an amazing Elder Scrolls Experience.

 

Yup. That's how I feel too. No one has ever been able to satisfy the appetites of those who live for PvE content consumption. They always pig-out on it faster than they can serve it.

It's always much better to design a game system that has replayability than constantly adding content. Is AvA in this game going to be worth doing over and over again? Hard to tell at this point. But if it's done right, it has the potential for having much more long-lasting appeal than waiting for yet another top-gear-entry only raid content that is almost identical to the previous content except the bad guys have different names and their bad-shit-on-the-floor-that-must-be-avoided-with-just-a-jump-to-the-left-and-then-a-step-to-the-right is a different shade of puce.

I can understand that having multiple play styles catered to, adds depth to a game.  The problem is that PvPers are never happy unless PvP is central to the game.  Otherwise, they whine about PvP being tacked on as an afterthought, when they should be happy to get any at all.  Every single MMO I have ever followed had PvPers whining about one thing or another, if it wasn't about primary representation in the game, then it was about class balance at the expense of the PvE game or believing they deserve better loot than regular adventurers and equal to raiders.

 

Even more insidiously is their constant push to funnel PvE players into PvP areas by tying it into PvE quests and rewards.  This is something I see them push for all the time, a nice constant flow of cannon fodder and easy pickings.

 You're talking about different things than I am and both of yours can be put into the single category of bad development.

There are creative ways to balance PvP separately from PvE without need for separate gear or bogus PVP-only stats. Rift took a good crack at it with the PvP soul that each class has available...except they didn't go far enough. ESO will also have AvA-only skill progression with 3 separate branches. That has potential for PvP balancing without hurting the PvE. Also don't forget that PvE only games are also constantly being tweaked and rebalkanced based exclusively on PvE criteria. It's a cliche that those nerfed in PvE always blame PvP balancing for the change when often, it was all about PvE balancing the overpowerd heals that were trivializing the content, for example.

Aslo.. I've never heard PvPers complain about PvP just being a tacked-on ugly step-child except when it is...like in LOTRO... like in vanilla WOW. There are bad development trends, usually motivated by the bottom line, where developers try to be everything to all people. Some players are so used to having it that way, that when a developer has the vision, focus and balls to not do that, all hell breaks lose in the forums with people demanding things like raids, PvE with anyone from all factions, scenario PvP, etc.

This particular MMO is RvR--or AvA if you prefer-centric. It has been designed that way. It's a horse, not a cow. Horses are for riding and cows are for milking. You can try to do it the opposite way but the results won't be ideal.

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