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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] Elder Scrolls Online: An Argument for 'Faction Lock'

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  SBFord

Associate Editor - News Manager

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 13281

 
OP  4/09/13 8:53:23 AM#1

The Elder Scrolls Online limits players to only certain races per faction, but is it really all that bad of an idea? We weigh in with this week's TESO column.

It’s also helpful for TESO as far as balance goes. The Elder Scrolls series is known for having meaningful racial abilities and attributes, something not common in contemporary MMOs, but surprisingly seems to be a concept that Zenimax Online is fully embracing. Not only will characters have defining racial abilities, there are actually entire racial skill lines available to each race in the game. This can pose some serious balance issues if you allow completely freeform race selection.

Read more of Michael Bitton's The Elder Scrolls Online: An Argument for 'Faction Lock'.

Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom

  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1260

4/09/13 2:16:28 PM#2
Balance isn't as much an issue as instanced Battleground or RvR PvP. In real open world combat, toe to toe balance issues isn't as crucial, as there are so many things that play a role in world pvp, e.g., getting the jump on someone, having a planned escape rout via environment, etc.
  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

4/09/13 2:49:13 PM#3

Didnt need to read past "Coincidence? Probably not." to know this is just an article being written due to MONEY being given to them.

There isnt a single person, not even hardcore DaoC fans that can argue that it is not a coincidence because THERE ARE NO DAOC FACTIONS LOCKED BEHIND AN INVISIBLE WALL clones out there, no one but the makers of that game thought it was a good enough idea to do it in another game...

Coincidence? Duh.

No amount of articles is going to change the minds of the TES fans that have been arguing against this crap move on every single TES site, its a small box being made for a game meant for an open world. Deal with that fact, and the fact you are not going to change the minds of those pissed off with anything less than a TES MMO with an open world.

 

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Ryowulf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 669

4/09/13 2:50:01 PM#4

 

"On the RvR side of things, it helps make the enemy much more easily identifiable, especially when there are three factions all colliding."

How? If they are covered head to toe in armor how does this help? Maybe the devs will go the TSW method and force everyone into faction clothes, but then race still wouldn't matter.

"It’s also helpful for TESO as far as balance goes."

How?  If there is a race that best fits a class then even if it only gets a small bump in pvp a lot of players with go that route. Or maybe its more the look/lore/feel of some races. Again look at TSW and how Dragons were so often outnumbered.

If I can be any race then even if High Elves make the best mages, there's going to be some in all the factions. (although I still don't get how they will balance faction numbers)

 

Its like this, some people will play a race if it gives even the smallest edge in pvp.  Some people will play a race just on looks/lore.  Some people will want to play certain factions based on numbers, wins in pvp or just lore/attitude.

Having faction locks forces all of those people I mentioned to maybe play a race/faction that isn't their favorite or don't even like just to play with friends/guildmates.

If ESO was the only mmo or one of a limited number in the market (like 10+ years ago) then maybe to doesn't bite you in the a$$, but in today's market with so many mmos to pick from it sees like a bad idea. On top doing it in a game who's ip is known from freedom of choice.   

  Sho0terMcgavin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/13
Posts: 318

4/09/13 2:50:42 PM#5
This MMO looksgreat.  The only MMO i'm personally more excited for is Wildstar.  But, I will definitely pick this up day 1!

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3431

4/09/13 3:08:15 PM#6

Love the faction lock. This is looking more like a home for DAoC fans then CU is. With great PvE as well as 3 faction PvP. Being a TES fan and DAoC fan rolled in one, I am dieing to play this game. Looks like home!!!!

 


Originally posted by Vannor
I just think that the more an MMO (or any game) tells us what we can and what we can't do in terms of travel or exploration.. the less it feels like a virtual 'world'. This faction lock stuff is 'probably' a prime example of something like that.

This is the problem with modern gamers. Its the same with how TES has changed over the years. You made a choice and it impacted the rest of the game. You could kill a NPC from the major story line if you wanted to. Picking one faction over another had deep impact and added reply. But people now a days get upset when that happens so RPGs get watered down more and more till choices dont matter much. Heck go ahead and join a faction in Skyrim or Oblivion it wont change anything. Everyone will still like you lol. 

Here ESO is taking a real step back into TES roots of picking a faction matters. Its a real impact to the game that adds reply value. How do we look at it, cry and cry and cry till they water it down more and more till its a shell of the game it could have been. Even TES series is doing this to conform to the masses who want to have the freedom to not have their choices matter because I wana see it all. Forget depth and reply value lets make all RPGs water down. Sad. The internet and feedback are breaking our games and we call it progress.

 
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17123

4/09/13 3:14:50 PM#7
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Love the faction lock. This is looking more like a home for DAoC fans then CU is. With great PvE as well as 3 faction PvP. Being a TES fan and DAoC fan rolled in one, I am dieing to play this game. Looks like home!!!!

And that's probably why you are finding some TES fans arguing against it.

 

  Whiskey_Sam

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/12
Posts: 275

Nemo me impune lacessit.

4/09/13 3:21:50 PM#8
Sheesh articles like this are why Mike B has the reputation of being the go-to guy when a questionable dev decision is white knighted by this site.

___________________________
Have flask; will travel.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3431

4/09/13 3:21:54 PM#9
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Love the faction lock. This is looking more like a home for DAoC fans then CU is. With great PvE as well as 3 faction PvP. Being a TES fan and DAoC fan rolled in one, I am dieing to play this game. Looks like home!!!!

And that's probably why you are finding some TES fans arguing against it.

 

Yup, but this is the thread for haters to have fun. Let the fun start =-) 

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

4/09/13 3:39:48 PM#10
Originally posted by Grakulen
From henceforth I shall forever more refer to jycgs as Sour Bill.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say but you have to be the biggest cranky pants in this thread.

Ryo is a distant second.

Fine by me, place me in the same catagory as most major TES fans on every single TES/MMO site that is majorly pissed off at our TES being made into a DaoC style game when there was no reason for it. MMOs have proven the DaoC style RvR limitations are not needed, or wanted by anyone other than DaoC players...and the fact that this article parrots the developers talking points like "realm pride" and "clearly identified factions" proves it because other games PROVED its BS that is not needed.

Either way I am happy to be lumped together with those that love the IP, want to protect it and want it to GROW and not REGRESS into a KOTOR/SWTOR type disaster.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3431

4/09/13 3:50:31 PM#11
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Grakulen
From henceforth I shall forever more refer to jycgs as Sour Bill.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say but you have to be the biggest cranky pants in this thread.

Ryo is a distant second.

Fine by me, place me in the same catagory as most major TES fans on every single TES/MMO site that is majorly pissed off at our TES being made into a DaoC style game when there was no reason for it. MMOs have proven the DaoC style RvR limitations are not needed, or wanted by anyone other than DaoC players...and the fact that this article parrots the developers talking points like "realm pride" and "clearly identified factions" proves it because other games PROVED its BS that is not needed.

Either way I am happy to be lumped together with those that love the IP, want to protect it and want it to GROW and not REGRESS into a KOTOR/SWTOR type disaster.

No other MMO has tried 3 faction PvP sinse DAoC. GW2 has this 2 week reset thing where you dont get to know the guilds you fight on the other factions or its players. So you get to gell in the war effort. Alliances dont form. Tatics dont progress. Every PvP MMO sinse DAoC has been compaired to DAoC the best PvP game that sits as the gold standard all MMOs have tried to capture in quality and faction pride sinse then.

The PvE game look really rich and full as well. Speaking as a TES fan (been playing them forever) I dont think we could ask for a better set up. Exploring looks rich and awesome. Elder game you can explore all maps and its filled with ruins and caves, 2 and 4 man dungeons. Instanced dungeons as well. Public quests as well as phased events that spin off from the open world for large group encounters that anyone can join. I am not sure what more you could ask for. 

  WellzyC

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/11
Posts: 546

Ceaseless

4/09/13 3:55:16 PM#12

Gw2 WvW was not that good because all 3 realms were the same. Same classes, same races, same everything. The fight had no meaning, and you saw different people every 2 weeks. NO pride, NO fun.

 

Being able to identify your enemy is awesome.

 

three faction rvr with different races was the best pvp the genre has ever seen.

 

Don't fix what's not broken.

 

The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.

The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, Linear Questing, Cut-Scenes...


www.CeaselessGuild.com

  Trudge34

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 389

4/09/13 3:56:25 PM#13

Every time I read another article on TESO I get more and more disappointed. I felt that the Elder Scrolls title would have been my perfect setting for the next MMO after I quit EverQuest. The possibilities of a massive, wide open world to explore in Tamriel was very enticing. Meeting up with people, exploring the many dungeons and places scattered around the region, setting up camp in a far corner or deep in a dungeon for a bit before moving on. I thought that only ES could provide that.

 

Can't even comprehend how disappointed I was when the announcement came that it would be a RvR style game with a linear personal story up to max level with some ES components thrown in. Didn't sound like ES to me at all. Seems they have gone back a bit on that, but their RvR and storyline are set in stone. The barriers given to each faction are ridiculous in the eyes of pretty much any fan of the Elder Scrolls series to date, all with the RvR in mind, which shouldn't even be the focus of an Elder Scrolls game.

 

At the VERY LEAST, I thought maybe, just maybe, the RvR could be limited to those who want to take part in it. Maybe much like Joining the Stormcloak Rebellion or The Imperial Legion. Do a quest sequence to gain acceptance into that faction in order to fight along their side. Taking Skyrim for just an example...having the Stormcloak v Imperials v Dark Brotherhood would be an interesting thing. The two main factions going at it, the DB as the rogue 3rd party who have hits on either side.

 

The biggest thing I feel sad about this game is that there is so much potential just...lost.

 

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2

Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

4/09/13 4:01:30 PM#14
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

No other MMO has tried 3 faction PvP sinse DAoC. GW2 has this 2 week reset thing where you dont get to know the guilds you fight on the other factions or its players. So you get to gell in the war effort. Alliances dont form. Tatics dont progress.

Correction: No other MMO has tried 3 faction PvP with factions behind invisible walls since DaoC, because it was piss poor game design.

As for your GW2 comment. My guild has been in an alliance since release we know the guilds we run with, our tactics are great and THAT is all that is needed in PvP. I dont need to keep fighting the same person over and over and over and over and over and over and over again to have FUN...I have FUN with the people I am WITH. Tactics, those things evolve with TEAMWORK, not who your enemy is.

100% unadulterated BS is always used to defend that thing called DaoC. Pride, pride is not created by a Developer, its created by the PERSON and their feelings towards a thing, if its manufactured, its FAKE. Pride doesnt need to be guided. Pride is EARNED. And no amount of BS dev talk is going to take away the pride I nor anyone else felt in games like Ultima Online, EverQuest, Star Wars Galaxies or any other game they felt pride in.

Just like no amount of articles like this is going to dim the rage being felt on every single TES/MMO site and if you think for a SECOND that Zenimax at corporate level is not expecting this game to have MASSIVE numbers and wont bring down the hammer when it fails to get millions of TES players NOT to play with its piss poor game design choices....boy oh boy do I have some beach front property to sell you, in Arizona.

The TES name is being used for its popularity to make MONEY, lots of MONEY...and yet they are not targetting the actual fans and that is plainly seen all over the internet world. The derp hasnt been this strong in a game since SWTOR.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1835

4/09/13 4:02:41 PM#15

I liked it in DAoC, but DAOC didnt have any predecessors that set the bar for the amount of freedom expected in subsequent games. ESO, however, is an Elder Scrolls game that is enforcing a faction lock arbitrarily in order to fit a design decision to make the game have RvR like DAoC. The problem is, in every previous TES game, there weren't any racial limitations. So, ESO is losing more freedom that doesn't really need to be lost. Many forum goers have came up with brilliant ideas on how to make it work. Also,  in order to justify this they're "making up" lore in order to "appease" the TES fans. That's probably one of the biggest slaps in the face to the TES purists, which I'd say most fans are. Don't act like we're stupid, like we won't know what your doing when you're creating lore to fit a design decision. It should be the other way around.

Despite all of this though, ESO has a chance to be a really good game. So I'll wait and see. I did enjoy the faction locks in DAoC, and couldn't imagine an Elf being welcomed in Camelot or in Midgard.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3431

4/09/13 4:09:28 PM#16
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

No other MMO has tried 3 faction PvP sinse DAoC. GW2 has this 2 week reset thing where you dont get to know the guilds you fight on the other factions or its players. So you get to gell in the war effort. Alliances dont form. Tatics dont progress.

Correction: No other MMO has tried 3 faction PvP with factions behind invisible walls since DaoC, because it was piss poor game design.

As for your GW2 comment. My guild has been in an alliance since release we know the guilds we run with, our tactics are great and THAT is all that is needed in PvP. I dont need to keep fighting the same person over and over and over and over and over and over and over again to have FUN...I have FUN with the people I am WITH. Tactics, those things evolve with TEAMWORK, not who your enemy is.

100% unadulterated BS is always used to defend that thing called DaoC. Pride, pride is not created by a Developer, its created by the PERSON and their feelings towards a thing, if its manufactured, its FAKE. Pride doesnt need to be guided. Pride is EARNED. And no amount of BS dev talk is going to take away the pride I nor anyone else felt in games like Ultima Online, EverQuest, Star Wars Galaxies or any other game they felt pride in.

Just like no amount of articles like this is going to dim the rage being felt on every single TES/MMO site and if you think for a SECOND that Zenimax at corporate level is not expecting this game to have MASSIVE numbers and wont bring down the hammer when it fails to get millions of TES players NOT to play with its piss poor game design choices....boy oh boy do I have some beach front property to sell you, in Arizona.

The TES name is being used for its popularity to make MONEY, lots of MONEY...and yet they are not targetting the actual fans and that is plainly seen all over the internet world. The derp hasnt been this strong in a game since SWTOR.

I was talking about alliances with the other factions. 1 side is way more populated and powerful. So the underdogs work together but that only last so long till they also turn on eachother. Unless you played DAoC in its prime you have no clue =-) There is a reason why its still talked about 10 years later. If DAoC had not been dumped for WAR and they kept updating it, I am sure it still would be the best PvP game on the market. Man I hate EA!!!!!

  Entinerint

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 716

4/09/13 4:11:21 PM#17

"Of course, there are gameplay reasons to go this route, too. On the RvR side of things, it helps make the enemy much more easily identifiable, especially when there are three factions all colliding. If I know that High Elves are only part of the Aldmeri Dominion, that helps me identify targets in a chaotic battle."

 

All the races are pretty much the same under armor.  Aside from Argonians and Khajiit there will be no major identifying factors between races during a battle.  All elves will be indistinguishable as will all humans.  Red is dead.  You are basically constantly fighting a battle where you are outnumbered 2:1.

 

"Outside of the actual gameplay, it was a sense of ‘realm pride’ that kept the fight going and the rivalries hot in Dark Age of Camelot, and there’s no doubt in my mind that Zenimax Online is looking to recreate that in The Elder Scrolls Online."

 

So you want realm pride, but you want to lock races into factions and territory (aside from the 50+ option).  Despite what people assume, this actually counteracts realm pride (in TES, not in DAOC), because you are being forced to fight for your faction based on race.  You are essentially being drafted, and draftees statistically have a lot less pride for their military and its cause than volunteers.  You forget that the majority of people who play this game (people who have played TES before) will not be choosing a faction.  They will be choosing a race that they like from their TES experience and the faction is then assigned to them.  They will have no pride for their faction, just their race.  In the case of Orcs, Argonians and Khajiit there is NO reason why they would feel pride for an alliance with races that have scorned them, fought them, enslaved them and shunned them in the past.  Alliance pride is a myth in the case of ESO.

 

"It’s also helpful for TESO as far as balance goes. The Elder Scrolls series is known for having meaningful racial abilities and attributes, something not common in contemporary MMOs, but surprisingly seems to be a concept that Zenimax Online is fully embracing. Not only will characters have defining racial abilities, there are actually entire racial skill lines available to each race in the game. This can pose some serious balance issues if you allow completely freeform race selection."

 

Actually, this also has the opposite effect, if any race can join any faction and/or have the option to be neutral (either mercing up for PvP or not being able to access it at all) then the balance is 100% guaranteed.  We don't just have racial perks in ESO, we have racial trees.  Therefore, racial trees will likely be RPS'd with other races, that means it won't actually matter what races are in what factions, balance will occur naturally and if not, entropy will occur naturally.  That's how RvR works, via entropy.  Also, you have to consider that due to the way races are divided up (basically by being neighbors, shoe-horning DAOC's system into Elder Scrolls with no regard for the actual lore) Ebonheart Pact is, across the board the most popular faction (holding 41% of the votes in a polling sample of 10,000 people collected on the ESO forums): http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1451421-faction-polls/page__p__22456174__hl__faction%20poll__fromsearch__1#entry22456174

 

Therefore, you have imbalanced the factions simply by making them race-based in the first place, as Dunmer and Nords are some of the most popular races in TES.  Even if the other two factions band together to fight the Pact, we will still have an imbalance of 60/40.  They won't feasibly be able to anyway since red is dead.  So the only way to actually balance it is to force team balance within the campaigns.  That's all fine and dandy but they could alleviate all of this by starting everyone as neutral and letting them decide as individuals who they want to fight for, if anyone.

 

"In fact, when I first speculated on the notion of having racials in TESO, it almost looked to me like the arrangement of races per faction seemed to break down in a way where you could read into potential gameplay biases on a faction to faction basis. For example, the Aldmeri Dominion could be squishier overall, but may be capable of dealing higher damage. I don’t know if this is exactly how things will play out, but I could see each faction being defined not only by its lore but by these sorts of gameplay attributes.  Limiting race options allows you to offer distinct and meaningful races for each faction, because you always know what the potential makeup is for that faction, which is much friendlier for balance purposes."

 

You honestly think these factions are defined by lore?  Have you even read any of the so-called "lore" they've trotted out here to justify the fact that they just grabbed three races in close proximity and smashed them together, then shoe-horned the lore in later?  They also do not have a good balance in terms of archetypes.  Reguard and Orsimer are Warriors and Bretons are Mages.  No thieves for DC.  Altmer are mages and Bosmer and Khajiit are thieves.  No warriors for AD.  EP is the only one that has the three archetypes covered again making them imbalanced.  Granted these limitations have never been concrete in TES but if we're just going by what other TES games have established as racial traits, there it is.

 

"I can completely appreciate the sense of disappointment I’ve been seeing from gamers, but I have a feeling this is one MMO compromise that may just pay off in the grand scheme of things. It may feel restrictive at first, but perhaps the pros will outweigh the cons once we can jump in and see it all for ourselves. Maybe I’m putting too much faith into Zenimax Online here, but I don’t think we’ve got the full picture just yet. While it’s a subject worth discussing to be sure, I’d encourage anyone who is skeptical at this point to give Zenimax the benefit of the doubt here, at least for now."

 

If by "pay off" you mean "backfire miserably" then yes, we are in agreement.  Matt Firor and his team are doing the only successful thing they know how to do: make DAOC.

 

I hope they turn things around, it certainly seems like they are trying but if they want this game to not be become Testanic they have a LOT of work to do on a LOT of fronts.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3431

4/09/13 4:12:07 PM#18
Originally posted by nate1980

I liked it in DAoC, but DAOC didnt have any predecessors that set the bar for the amount of freedom expected in subsequent games. ESO, however, is an Elder Scrolls game that is enforcing a faction lock arbitrarily in order to fit a design decision to make the game have RvR like DAoC. The problem is, in every previous TES game, there weren't any racial limitations. So, ESO is losing more freedom that doesn't really need to be lost. Many forum goers have came up with brilliant ideas on how to make it work. Also,  in order to justify this they're "making up" lore in order to "appease" the TES fans. That's probably one of the biggest slaps in the face to the TES purists, which I'd say most fans are. Don't act like we're stupid, like we won't know what your doing when you're creating lore to fit a design decision. It should be the other way around.

Despite all of this though, ESO has a chance to be a really good game. So I'll wait and see. I did enjoy the faction locks in DAoC, and couldn't imagine an Elf being welcomed in Camelot or in Midgard.

When you get to top level the walls come down. You can explore any faction map as they are turned into 50+ and 50++ maps and reward you with some of the best gear in the game. Its about 400hrs of elder game. Its an awesome compermise.

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

4/09/13 4:17:06 PM#19

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

I was talking about alliances with the other factions. 1 side is way more populated and powerful. So the underdogs work together but that only last so long till they also turn on eachother. Unless you played DAoC in its prime you have no clue =-) There is a reason why its still talked about 10 years later. If DAoC had not been dumped for WAR and they kept updating it, I am sure it still would be the best PvP game on the market. Man I hate EA!!!!!

And with no invisible walls this is not possible? Yeah, it IS possible...so again, your point is moot. And yes, I played DaoC in its prime, I stopped playing right when the Hybernia protests started...yeah, the game was so good 1/3rd of it felt like a red headed step child...

 

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

When you get to top level the walls come down. You can explore any faction map as they are turned into 50+ and 50++ maps and reward you with some of the best gear in the game. Its about 400hrs of elder game. Its an awesome compermise.

Yet its still closed factioned and has invisible walls, you can go to the other faction lands at 50 but its an instanced copy of it and you are not there with the other factions players. Point is moot, it isnt a compromise its a themepark addition further slapping the face of TES fans by turning it upside down even more.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3431

4/09/13 4:22:44 PM#20
Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

When you get to top level the walls come down. You can explore any faction map as they are turned into 50+ and 50++ maps and reward you with some of the best gear in the game. Its about 400hrs of elder game. Its an awesome compermise.

Yet its still closed factioned and has invisible walls, you can go to the other faction lands at 50 but its an instanced copy of it and you are not there with the other factions players. Point is moot, it isnt a compromise its a themepark addition further slapping the face of TES fans by turning it upside down even more.

TES was a themepark game so np there lol. Tell me its sandpark and I will laugh at you. TES had nothing you could do to build or shape the world in any way. The player was stuck picking what set of rails you wanted to follow. Only thing even close to sandbox about TES was the class system. So themepark fixes for a themepark origins. 

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