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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Kickstarter / CU no funding (combined) topic

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107 posts found
  Dren_Utogi

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/10
Posts: 1465

 
OP  4/06/13 3:06:08 PM#81
Originally posted by Normandy7
Originally posted by Fearum
Keep buying the big company reskinned horse crap they can't shovel out fast enough to feed the masses. Keep purchaseing from that cash shop to get the new shiney.

Amen to that. QFT!

so developing games that everyone can plays and can buy things as they go don't create the type of elitism of old jaded gamers willing to purchase 100's of the dollars for words that don't ammount to a signle pixel of a game ? MThat makes perfect sense /sarcasm off.

  Beatnik59

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2060

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

4/06/13 3:18:45 PM#82
Originally posted by teddyboy420

As an adult, if you don't do your research, and due dilligence, then you get what you deserve if it fails. If, after that, it doesn't meet your standards than by all means don't contribute. But if it does, and you feel good enough about putting your hard-earned money into a project you support, more power to you.

What "research" do you think one ought to do?  Even more to the point, what constitutes "due dilligence" in your book?

Because I'm rather sure that unless a person has a lawyer on retainer, an accounting firm specializing in audits on speed dial, a risk assessment consultant and an insurance firm willing to underwrite the investment, a person has no ability to do "research" or perform "due dilligence."

A responsible adult would understand that.  Then again, a fool and his money are soon parted.  It'll part more frequently with Kickstarter.

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  gestalt11

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6131

4/06/13 4:31:49 PM#83

The flaw in the OP, and this doesn't mean he turns out wrong, is that he is assuming a one way street.

 

Funders affect the people who get funded and vice versa.  This should NEVER be glossed over.  Its extremely important.

 

Now there will most likely be pump and dump schemes.  These happen all the time.  There will be bag holders.  There always are.

 

The mistake is to believe that people will not adjust to such things or make demands for reliable assurances etc.  There are 1000s of years of normal everyday people coming up with workable ways to do these things.  None of them stop out right crime of course.  But people generally have come up with ways to make things reliable enough to do business.

  gestalt11

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6131

4/06/13 4:44:04 PM#84
Originally posted by Beatnik59
Originally posted by teddyboy420

As an adult, if you don't do your research, and due dilligence, then you get what you deserve if it fails. If, after that, it doesn't meet your standards than by all means don't contribute. But if it does, and you feel good enough about putting your hard-earned money into a project you support, more power to you.

What "research" do you think one ought to do?  Even more to the point, what constitutes "due dilligence" in your book?

Because I'm rather sure that unless a person has a lawyer on retainer, an accounting firm specializing in audits on speed dial, a risk assessment consultant and an insurance firm willing to underwrite the investment, a person has no ability to do "research" or perform "due dilligence."

A responsible adult would understand that.  Then again, a fool and his money are soon parted.  It'll part more frequently with Kickstarter.

Sometimes you fail when you do twice the research of everyone else and twice the dilligence.  Did you deserve to fail?  

I don't agree that this laundry list of things is necessary for many kickstarter efforts, although some are essentially blind leaps on unkown.   But many are not.  The two KS projects I have spent VERY modest amounts of money on were both done by people who have a long track record and former customers to get feedback from.   Sure if I was spending more than the $30  Ispent on an Adonit product I would dot all i's and cross all t's.  But in the end its all about risk management and while you might get a risk assessment specialist for buying a bearing company, human are hard wired to perform 100's of risk assessments everyday of their life.  You do it everytime you drive.  For $30 I don't need a specialist.

 

Funding something is a speculation, you only deserve two things: jack and shit; and jack left town. 

If you do your research and due dilligence you should have a good CHANCE to get something you think is valuable.

If you randomly go funding anything that strikes your fancy; you are just a fucking fool.  This applies outside of KS as well.

 

Now as to what a fool deserves in life I leave that up to you, dear reader.

  Squeak69

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 952

cheese cheese wheres da bloody cheese

4/06/13 4:47:53 PM#85

kickstarters wont kill PC gameing. it will just cause a uproar after to many people get burned thats all.

to be honest the only real threat to PC gameing is companies leaning more and more to consul game then PC, especilly as consols are slowly become more friendly to indie gameing, once this reachs a certan point PCs will slowly fade away to be replaced by things like tablets and other device which as they become better, can basicly do anythign a PC can short of high end gameing.

it dousnt help that companies are pushing for tis kinda of thing, windows 8 is all the proof i need of this.

F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  BizkitNL

Old School

Joined: 12/29/02
Posts: 2255

"Free to play, pay to win""

4/06/13 4:50:49 PM#86

I'm astonished how people automatically assume AAA-titles are moneygrabbing rehashes and copies.

lol.

Feel like trying Planetside 2? Get a headstart with the starter kit!

  Destac

Novice Member

Joined: 7/06/12
Posts: 32

4/06/13 4:51:45 PM#87

This will not be the end of the Pc Gaming Platform at all. The only people suffering are those that are willing to donate to the companies. Yes you get all of those cool bonuses but I am going to ask you this IS IT WORTH IT. I mean come on you get a lifetime subscription, but how long will you actually play the game. Please keep in mind the game is not even fully developed yet. So you are paying for an unfinished game (or buying a game owned by EA)

 

http://thedailyexposition.blogspot.com/2013/04/developers-asking-for-money-on.html

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  teddyboy420

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/22/04
Posts: 382

Blessed are the forgetful: for they get the better even of their blunders - Friedrich Nietzsche

4/06/13 6:26:13 PM#88
Originally posted by gestalt11
Originally posted by Beatnik59
Originally posted by teddyboy420

As an adult, if you don't do your research, and due dilligence, then you get what you deserve if it fails. If, after that, it doesn't meet your standards than by all means don't contribute. But if it does, and you feel good enough about putting your hard-earned money into a project you support, more power to you.

What "research" do you think one ought to do?  Even more to the point, what constitutes "due dilligence" in your book?

Because I'm rather sure that unless a person has a lawyer on retainer, an accounting firm specializing in audits on speed dial, a risk assessment consultant and an insurance firm willing to underwrite the investment, a person has no ability to do "research" or perform "due dilligence."

A responsible adult would understand that.  Then again, a fool and his money are soon parted.  It'll part more frequently with Kickstarter.

Sometimes you fail when you do twice the research of everyone else and twice the dilligence.  Did you deserve to fail?  

I don't agree that this laundry list of things is necessary for many kickstarter efforts, although some are essentially blind leaps on unkown.   But many are not.  The two KS projects I have spent VERY modest amounts of money on were both done by people who have a long track record and former customers to get feedback from.   Sure if I was spending more than the $30  Ispent on an Adonit product I would dot all i's and cross all t's.  But in the end its all about risk management and while you might get a risk assessment specialist for buying a bearing company, human are hard wired to perform 100's of risk assessments everyday of their life.  You do it everytime you drive.  For $30 I don't need a specialist.

 

Funding something is a speculation, you only deserve two things: jack and shit; and jack left town. 

If you do your research and due dilligence you should have a good CHANCE to get something you think is valuable.

If you randomly go funding anything that strikes your fancy; you are just a fucking fool.  This applies outside of KS as well.

 

Now as to what a fool deserves in life I leave that up to you, dear reader.

I guess I should have prefaced that a little better...I, personally, don't have the kind of money to seriously invest in anyone but myself, and my immedeate family. That being said, I don't look at KS as a "serious" investment, for exactly the reasons Beatnik quoted, I don't have all of those resources at my disposal, hence I wouldn't "invest" more then like $50....which happens to be exactly what I am considering giving the CU KS. The way I look at it, I pay into a KS drive to support something I'd like to see happen, if it doesn't, I accept the loss, if it does, I just bought a game I'll enjoy playing. It isn't something I'll do often, but if something comes along I'd REALLY like to see happen, cool.

I stand by my statement though, I do think some sort of research is in order before anyone should fund a KS. What do I think constitutes due diligince? It's different for everyone, and for every investment. That said, I have to repeat how I, personally, view KS, and with that in mind, I don't think much is neccessary. A known, and proven game developer wielding fleshed out design ideas, concept art, the beginings of a team, including all the major department leads, that are interacting w/ the community on a regular basis, and seem enthusiastic about their idea....I would consider that enough for me to drop $50 on, but that's me.

I agree that a fool and his money are soon parted. Everyone has to decide for themselves how much research they do before "investing" in something.

  Dren_Utogi

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/10
Posts: 1465

 
OP  4/08/13 11:07:39 AM#89

Apparently this is MY CU discussion thread on why CU should not befunded. Continue discussion here.: 

 

 

One of the things that makes little sense is nothing is written about the mechanics of the game, it is all theory, and the theories seems to always align themsleves to what ever players are talking about instead of being reinforced with the creators own ideass on what the mechanics should be. Kind of like, which ever the eind is blowing.. I find this very odd.

  davur

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/13
Posts: 4

4/08/13 2:05:46 PM#90

#89 Please show proof for your statement about “wind blowing”, good sir. I’m not disagreeing or agreeing. It would just help people to accept or debate your view better, and may even make people change their view on things. Even on/in a random forum on the internet…

  Dren_Utogi

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/10
Posts: 1465

 
OP  4/08/13 3:35:00 PM#91
Originally posted by davur

#89 Please show proof for your statement about “wind blowing”, good sir. I’m not disagreeing or agreeing. It would just help people to accept or debate your view better, and may even make people change their view on things. Even on/in a random forum on the internet…

Like the whole stealth argument theat popped up. HE never even mentioned it till it was posted by a users.

The archer and ranged combat also the wind blew and the words followed. 

 

I'm a beleiver in listening to a community, but to have the community design the entire project  just seems lazy. If a developer has great core ideas, lets have them and be done with it, instead of the theorizing and going with popular opinion. Sometime popular opinion is crap we all know this and been in mmo's that goit changed because of a majoried they could of been to weak or to lazy to complete objectives in a game. 

All of the theorizing should of been done years ago. 

 

People have their own minds when funding something, i just feel it is extremely important not be singing koombayah when ever big names starts to "use" the KS system when they already have enough capital on their own to start building an actual game ?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17961

4/08/13 4:04:52 PM#92
Originally posted by Beatnik59
Originally posted by teddyboy420

As an adult, if you don't do your research, and due dilligence, then you get what you deserve if it fails. If, after that, it doesn't meet your standards than by all means don't contribute. But if it does, and you feel good enough about putting your hard-earned money into a project you support, more power to you.

What "research" do you think one ought to do?  Even more to the point, what constitutes "due dilligence" in your book?

The research i did is that KS, so far, has not produced games, not to mention good games, at even a low 10% rate of all the projects that have been funded.

So, no "investment" from me. Very simple.

  Golelorn

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/23/03
Posts: 1030

4/08/13 4:10:59 PM#93

As much a I want to "help" some of these companies I just can't. There is no accountability for these devs. Also, if I invest in something I feel there should be a monetary return. Not just hope and a prayer.

But I see no harm in others doing. Your donation may help me play a fun game in the future. So thanks for being gullible, naive and desperate.

  Instigator-Jones

Elite Member

Joined: 2/07/13
Posts: 248

4/08/13 4:16:32 PM#94
"The research i did is that KS, so far, has not produced games, not to mention good games, at even a low 10% rate of all the projects that have been funded.
So, no "investment" from me. Very simple."

So you're not interested in SOA (don't blame you there really) or *Citizen?

Off topic... Why not reply quotes on mobile MMORPG??
  nf4mous

Novice Member

Joined: 4/08/13
Posts: 55

4/08/13 9:27:54 PM#95
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi
Originally posted by davur

#89 Please show proof for your statement about “wind blowing”, good sir. I’m not disagreeing or agreeing. It would just help people to accept or debate your view better, and may even make people change their view on things. Even on/in a random forum on the internet…

Like the whole stealth argument theat popped up. HE never even mentioned it till it was posted by a users.

The archer and ranged combat also the wind blew and the words followed. 

 

I'm a beleiver in listening to a community, but to have the community design the entire project  just seems lazy. If a developer has great core ideas, lets have them and be done with it, instead of the theorizing and going with popular opinion. Sometime popular opinion is crap we all know this and been in mmo's that goit changed because of a majoried they could of been to weak or to lazy to complete objectives in a game. 

All of the theorizing should of been done years ago. 

 

People have their own minds when funding something, i just feel it is extremely important not be singing koombayah when ever big names starts to "use" the KS system when they already have enough capital on their own to start building an actual game ?

heh.  the original poster, Dren_Utogi,  claimed in another thread he was alright with lord british receiving funding for his game, even though british didn't need a cent from the public.   but now, with camelot unchained on the horizon and threatening the legacy of PvP games he used to "like" (read:   age of conan and shadowbane), he posts non stop and lies about how marc jacobs is somehow lying or manipulating the public for his own personal gain, and how it shouldn't receive public funding. Talk about hypocrisy at its finest.    or somehow lies about how there hasn't been massive interest the past decade for a return to DAOC's roots due to a distinct lack of viable PvP games since.  sorry Dren_Utogi, i haven't seen anyone the past decade mourn the loss of shadowbane and age of conan.

 

also, to trump your argument:  all games on kickstarter are at different stages of development.  

 

here's  a link you wouldn't respond to in another thread, by the way - one of many threads that illustrate just how popular DAOC was, and will continue to be:   http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/278084

 

of course camelot unchained is going to garner heavy $ per backer.  it hasn't even received major press coverage yet. i only heard about it yesterday, and immediately pledged a decent amount.

 

davur, jacobs hasn't done much "wind blowing" on much of anything, as far as i can tell. in fact, going through many of his postings on reddit / other MMO sites, he's pretty much been forthcoming about his mistakes and goals going forward.  leave it to camelot haters to lie and distort reality, though.

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

4/08/13 9:38:10 PM#96

I see Kickstarter with mixed feelings. What I see are many unusual, creative, innovative and indie ideas of games which maybe otherwise would never see the light of day. So I can understand from the perspective of an investor the idea. Minimize risk.

But I am no investor. I am a customer. And making me pay *ahead*? Befor the game is ready, just based on promises and maybe years before the game is out? Sorry, but no.

It oddly reminds me of buying a car in Socialis East Europe, back in the days. You ordered your car, paid and 20 years later you would get the car.

As I said, I understand why investors try to minimize their risks, and I see it gives opportunities to "niche" games. But sorry, I don't pay ahead. Maybe a week or a month, when the game is in a state that I can see it with close resemblance to how it will be. I mean, heck, as Sim City has shown, even that says horribly little. And don't you guys have the feeling to partially pay... much for little? If you take a game which now gives you 20 hours gameplay for 50-60 bucks, when 20 hours used to be the size of an expansion pack for 10-20 bucks!

So I have mixed feelings over this kickstarter idea, like somehow being ripped off. Take Shround of the Avatar. I TOTALLY love Garriot being back to making RPGs. Really. Even if Shroud isn't the uber game, it's a start. But expecting me to pay now, for a game which is released when? 2015? 2016? And some people pay 80 or 100 dollars for that. Sorry, but nowai. Show me the product as it is ready, then we talk about payment.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3431

4/09/13 1:50:34 AM#97
Originally posted by Fearum
Keep buying the big company reskinned horse crap they can't shovel out fast enough to feed the masses. Keep purchaseing from that cash shop to get the new shiney.

And have an actual game to play instead of a promise of a game that may never come to fruition?  Hell yes.  You assume that just because a developer makes all kind sof promises in their Kickstarter campaign, that they won't turn around and put in a cash shop and mkae a shitty game.  You already paid them for it, what do they care?

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3431

4/09/13 1:53:24 AM#98
Originally posted by Fearum

No thanks, I won't keep purchasing subpar crap and eating it with a smile for more from the cash shop. Not sure we are talking about the same things here though.

Others are talking about reality, you are talking about fantasy.  Whether you like it or not, games are big business.  You can kick and scream and whine all you want, that doesn't  change what actually is.  I don't care if you want to buy subpar crap, but when that's all that's on the market, in your opinion, then you either buy it or you don't buy anything.

I really love you people who have a minuscule minorty view and then cry when nobody caters to you.  Of course they don't!

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  Cephus404

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Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3431

4/09/13 2:03:53 AM#99

While I'm neutral on the concept of Kickstarter, I will say that I would never give a red cent to any gaming project, or indeed, any project that didn't already have a finished product that it needed funding to distribute.  For a game, you're trusting that these people have calculated how much money they need correctly, that they can actually carry through with the product as promised, that they won't get bought out, that they won't change their mind... hell, that they won't drop dead, before the product is finished.  You're just funding their unsupported claims and that's a bad idea all around.

So no, no game on Kickstarter will ever see a penny of my money, no matter how much I might want them to make the game.  It's just not a rational financial risk.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3431

4/09/13 2:08:38 AM#100
Originally posted by Four0Six
Originally posted by Fearum
Keep buying the big company reskinned horse crap they can't shovel out fast enough to feed the masses. Keep purchaseing from that cash shop to get the new shiney.

Atleast there is a "shiney".

IF you woudl kindly point me to the successfull KS game shelf  I will head over and pick one up, I might add I havent prepurchased in years and only buy launched games...

Not only do I only buy launched games, I only buy games that have been released for at least 4-6 months so I can do my research and find it they are worth my gaming dollar or not.  It stops me from buying bad games and wasting my time and money on things I will likely not enjoy.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

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