Trending Games | The Crew | Landmark | Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor | WildStar

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,850,627 Users Online:0
Games:732  Posts:6,223,965
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » GDC - James Ohlen - Voiceovers didn't drive the cost up, it was getting the engine to work right that drove costs (through the roof)

11 Pages First « 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 » Search
205 posts found
  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5210

4/10/13 5:27:20 AM#141
Originally posted by Caldrin
Originally posted by ignore_me
Is "Engine" really a good name for that software? It almost sounds as if it would have been better called the "chassis," or "Frame." Engine to me is analgous to car design, and there the engine makes the thing go, and determines the overall performance. Seems like from what Quizzical is saying, the engine is more of a primordial component.  

Well Heroengine is a game engine.. you need to build the game around it but without it the game would not go.. so yes it is like a car engine..

the issue was that they picked the engine up very early on in its development and they ran into issues with that version.

Either way they cant move the blame from themeselves they made a very boring game that hardly passes for an MMO.. They chose an engine that was not ready for commercial use adn they knew that..

 

heroengine today its a totally different beast you just need to look at the repopulation for that..

apologists for the hero engine debacle can't really avoid the fact that for MMO's its really not a good choice, its pretty plain already that without some very heavy modification to the core engine itself, which Bioware had to do, kind of wonder if they wouldnt have been lots better off just creating their own engine, for what it cost them to fix hero engine, it probably wasnt worth having, hero engine imo, is more suited to multiplayer online/lan games, rather than MMO's, and if your pointing at repopulation as evidence of the 'current' hero engines capabilities, thats another negative tbh, and only really highlights how little hero engine has improved.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13309

4/10/13 11:13:37 AM#142
Originally posted by Caldrin

heroengine today its a totally different beast you just need to look at the repopulation for that..

The Repopulation isn't out yet, is it?  If not, then it really doesn't tell you much about the Hero Engine.

The problem with licensing a game engine going awry isn't that the first thing you try to do completely fails.  It's that you can get far into the project, and then discover that two things you really need conflict with each other and you can't do both without a major overhaul to things you thought you were done with.

You might think that the game is 95% done, but that last 5% to get it ready for release can be quite a doozy.  I need to change this to do what I want, but changing this breaks that, so now I need to change that, too, which promptly breaks some other thing that you won't realize you broke for two weeks, at which point, you aren't even sure what broke it.  Before you know it, you've created spaghetti code and don't even know what's wrong anymore.

That can happen even if you wrote your own game engine from scratch.  But it's a lot easier for it to happen when you're trying to change code that you don't entirely understand than when you're trying to change code that you already understand because you wrote it yourself.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13309

4/10/13 11:19:50 AM#143
Originally posted by Ralstlin

they should just remake the game like Square-Enix is doing with FFXIV...

new FFXIV client is capable to show up 100 characters around you, only limited by graphic card. Some companies should take care of their products, Star Wars is something big.. you cant drop it so bad..

There's a big difference between:

1)  You can have 100 characters around you and draw all that you need,

2)  You can have 100 characters actually on your screen, not counting ones that are nearby but slightly off of your screen,

3)  You can have 100 characters actually on your screen without completely killing your frame rate, even on fairly capable hardware.

4)  You can have 100 different characters on your screen without killing your frame rate, as opposed to 5 different mobs and a zillion copies of them,

5)  You can have 100 different characters with data that needs to constantly be updated from the server, as opposed to something that can be done purely client-side, such as an NPC who stands in the same spot forever and never moves,

6)  You can have 100 players on your screen constantly moving around and attacking arbitrarily without completely killing your frame rates, and

7)  You can have 100 players on your screen with independent graphics, independent movements and attacks, moving around in real-time rather than turn-based, and without killing your frame rate or overloading your Internet connection.

Any one of those is a long, long way away from implying the next.  And color me skeptical that they can do #7.

  User Deleted
4/10/13 11:31:11 AM#144

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/29/gdc-2013-james-ohlen-on-how-f2p-saved-swtor/

 

Basically this article should read "James Ohlen on how F2P saved his job" because that's really what happened imo.

I can't imagine anyone hiring him after the way they handled this game. The short amount of time for the lifting of the NDA prior to launch where the game was freely open to be reported on by the unbiased unpaid press was a clear indicator to me of just how this game was going to go. Then there was the launch patch of the game being nothing like the final beta in function and form because someone deleted something they shouldn't have. Then there was the design flaws of the game pushing the game back to a 2004 design rather then a 2012 design especially when dealing with things as simple as remote mission turnins and mission(quest) system design. And finally there is the availability of code that allows for multiple players to exist rather easily (more then 10 I know) on a pvp battlefield without destroying quality that it seems none of these developers tend to use.

If it weren't for the IP this game would have gone the way of the do do bird quickly. I am quite surprised he's still there honestly.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13309

4/10/13 11:34:00 AM#145
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Caldrin
Originally posted by ignore_me
Is "Engine" really a good name for that software? It almost sounds as if it would have been better called the "chassis," or "Frame." Engine to me is analgous to car design, and there the engine makes the thing go, and determines the overall performance. Seems like from what Quizzical is saying, the engine is more of a primordial component.  

Well Heroengine is a game engine.. you need to build the game around it but without it the game would not go.. so yes it is like a car engine..

the issue was that they picked the engine up very early on in its development and they ran into issues with that version.

Either way they cant move the blame from themeselves they made a very boring game that hardly passes for an MMO.. They chose an engine that was not ready for commercial use adn they knew that..

 

heroengine today its a totally different beast you just need to look at the repopulation for that..

apologists for the hero engine debacle can't really avoid the fact that for MMO's its really not a good choice, its pretty plain already that without some very heavy modification to the core engine itself, which Bioware had to do, kind of wonder if they wouldnt have been lots better off just creating their own engine, for what it cost them to fix hero engine, it probably wasnt worth having, hero engine imo, is more suited to multiplayer online/lan games, rather than MMO's, and if your pointing at repopulation as evidence of the 'current' hero engines capabilities, thats another negative tbh, and only really highlights how little hero engine has improved.

My understanding is that they wanted to license an engine to get started on the game faster, rather than spending quite a while creating an engine before they can create anything more than token amounts of content for the game itself.  If you make your own game engine from scratch, you can't do that.

The problem is that trying to start creating anything more than token amounts of content before the engine is settled can very easily backfire.  If you decide that the way you've structured something is inefficient and you need to change it because it will double your performance in that portion of the engine, then that may require restructuring the data for your content.  If you only have token amounts of data to change, then maybe you can do that in ten minutes.  If you've already had 20 artists working for a year and then you need to change how all of the models are done, you could end up with a cost more naturally measured in man-years rather than man-hours.

Now, doubling performance in one small part of your game engine probably doesn't mean doubling frame rates in general.  It might only mean 2% less CPU load and no change in GPU load for the same final output.  But 1% here and 2% there dozens of times can add up to the difference between an efficient game engine that runs well on middling hardware and a badly-coded mess that strugges to run at all.

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

4/10/13 6:52:23 PM#146
Originally posted by erictlewis

I said for a long time the game engine was crud, and how it limited the game.  This entire thing just goes to prove that the game engine behind stwor is what has and still is causing this games problems. 

 

Indeed.

It created the entire empty feeling on worlds like Coruscant, where you expect BUSY city life and not a handful of unanimated NPCs standing around like three days after the Apocalypse wiped out 99% of Coruscant's population, and the rest was nauseated! Even small towns all seemed dead and not active. Compare the GW2 cities and how alife and buzzing and real they look compared to the sterile, empty places of SWTOR. Most cities and towns in SWTOR don't even have any ambient sounds! They are totally silent!

So yes, I am totally inclined to believe it.

 

But there is one more thing in the Gamebreaker TV video: how this ex guy from Trion/Rift said, the classic MMO model is going to end soon? Yes. Yes it is. Developers can not make by far content that fast as players burn through it. And the ONLY reasonable answer is of course, to return to add sandbox elements. NOT a rollback to 2004 MMOs, but ADD sandbox elements ADDITIONALLY to the story.

And this is what I NEVER will understand, WHY ON EARTH SWTOR did NOT learn anything from SWG, and failed to add ANY sort of sandbox elements to keep people busy?! I don't get it. These sandbox elements were so popular in games like SWG or Ultima Online. People LOVED them. Can you imagine how cool SWTOR would have been with the present level of story PLUS sandbox elements? It would have been a killer game! And THAT is what MMOs need to do, they need to embrace the sandbox elements again! Give people stuff to do, player cities to build, full crafting economies to supply and weird non combat stuff like entertainers, musicians asf. to keep players busy beyond the quests and stories!

We few said so ALL ALONG. So we can only hope, TESO will be the last "classic" MMO as the pure themeparks are, because the future is sandbox-themeparks hybrids, and nothing else.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  observer

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/05
Posts: 2180

First came pride, then envy.

4/10/13 7:31:13 PM#147
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Karteli


(1) In your haste for a rebbutal you glossed over any key point.  He is saying the engine isn't that bad because Hero isn't that bad and some work went into it via EA to make it alright, so how could it be bad?  EA is saying their engine was horrible from the start.  Then it comes out that Quizzical never ever played SWTOR.

I never made that argument.

The question of whether Hero Engine is good as an engine available for license is a question of how hard it is to modify it to be able to do what you want and do it well (runs fast, minimal bugs) as compared to other engines available for license.  Ideally, you'd want it to be able to efficiently do a lot of things that you need for your game, and you'd want it to be relatively easy to modify the engine to be able to do what you need that it wasn't built to do when you licensed it.

But the Hero Engine as available for license is very different from the the game engine that SWTOR uses.  They have a common ancestry in that they both came from the Hero Engine as it was a long time ago.  But then EA forked the code base as you inevitably have to do if you want to make a serious game.

The question of how good SWTOR's game engine is for SWTOR has a lot more to do with how good the EA employees who modified the engine after forking the code base than how good the Hero Engine that they licensed was.  Playing SWTOR today won't tell you much about how hard it was to make modifications to a game engine years ago.

Furthermore, even for SWTOR's game engine, just playing the game doesn't tell you as much as you might think.  If a game engine absolutely cannot do something that whoever makes the game doesn't want to do anyway, that isn't a problem with the game engine.  Game design decisions that you disagree with may make the game bad, but if the engine can efficiently do everything that the company wanted it to do, then it could be a good engine for a bad game.

Another important feature of a game engine is how hard it is to make content work with it.  If two different game engines let you make graphics that look just as good, and the first gets you 5% higher frame rates, while the latter makes it only cost 1/3 as much to create content and add it to the game, then there's a pretty strong argument that the latter game engine is better.  But that's not something that you can tell just from playing the game.

The quotes from James Ohlen make it sound like he thinks that the game engine is bad.  And he might well be right.  But blaming it all on the Hero Engine is ridiculous.  If you buy and use tools that can't do what you want, it doesn't automatically mean the tools are bad (though they might well be).  It means you're an idiot for buying and using them.

A perfectly good screwdriver doesn't necessarily make a good hammer.  If you have a screwdriver and are trying to use it as a hammer and it's not working well, the problem is with the user, not the tool.

Hero Engine might well be a great engine available for license.  It might be terrible.  It might be a sensible choice for some games and a terrible choice for others.  It might have some very good code for some of its features, and other broad swaths of code that are complete junk and should be scrapped in their entirety.  But you can't tell just from playing SWTOR, or any other game that uses the Hero Engine for that matter.

I agree that the Hero Engine isn't fully to blame, but i believe it is partly to blame.  It is, afterall, a major component of the whole blueprint of the design.  It could be, that some coding modules were coded very terribly from the original Hero Engine team, so when the Swtor team picked up, it took them more time and money to modify it.

It's like hiring a mechanic to fix your car engine, and he modifies it very differently from the factory default.  (bad analogy i know. lol.)

  aRtFuLThinG

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1011

4/10/13 8:23:08 PM#148
Originally posted by Quizzical

7)  You can have 100 players on your screen with independent graphics, independent movements and attacks, moving around in real-time rather than turn-based, and without killing your frame rate or overloading your Internet connection.

Any one of those is a long, long way away from implying the next.  And color me skeptical that they can do #7.

 That maybe but that is by no means a monumental task... considering games like APB or even AoC or WAR already did it, so I doubt that FFXIV can't at least achieve some of that.

If such a medicore game like APB can do it (WITH fully customizable models mind you), I don't see how SWTOR can be doing soooo badly with just 10 people and no fully customizable cars WITH fully customizable tattoos/logos/colours/clothing or explosions or smoke effects.

the version of Heroes engine use by SWTOR must've been really terrible.

  User Deleted
4/10/13 8:27:43 PM#149
Interesting.  Before the launch I thought I read articles that mentioned the whole reason to use the Hero engine was to avoid the cost of developing their own and give them more time to create content.  When it launched many commented on the lack of content.  Either way the outcome sucked for Bioware.  One thing was successful and that is the absolutely gorgeous environments.  Give me better space combat and I will gladly return.
  aRtFuLThinG

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1011

4/10/13 8:34:58 PM#150
Originally posted by tute
One thing was successful and that is the absolutely gorgeous environments.  Give me better space combat and I will gladly return.

 Planetside 2's environment was even more "gorgeous" (in terms of ambience lighting and graphics) and yet the engine was developed entirely in house.

Bioware probably should've developed their own engine. Might have been better off (or better yet, even make money from selling the engine to others).

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13309

4/10/13 9:09:51 PM#151
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by Quizzical

7)  You can have 100 players on your screen with independent graphics, independent movements and attacks, moving around in real-time rather than turn-based, and without killing your frame rate or overloading your Internet connection.

Any one of those is a long, long way away from implying the next.  And color me skeptical that they can do #7.

 That maybe but that is by no means a monumental task... considering games like APB or even AoC or WAR already did it, so I doubt that FFXIV can't at least achieve some of that.

If such a medicore game like APB can do it (WITH fully customizable models mind you), I don't see how SWTOR can be doing soooo badly with just 10 people and no fully customizable cars WITH fully customizable tattoos/logos/colours/clothing or explosions or smoke effects.

the version of Heroes engine use by SWTOR must've been really terrible.

One hundred players on your screen at once, moving around in real time with independent 3D graphics?  Really?  I'm skeptical, as that really is hard to do.  It's not just that drawing 100 is hard; if you actually have 100 on your screen at once with anything other than an isometric overhead view, then you probably have an awful lot more than 100 who are close enough that the server needs to tell you where they are.  You can spin the camera around awfully fast, and if you don't even start loading assets until the camera moves, it will take a while for players who are just behind you to appear.

Maybe they can do 20 players on a screen at once.  Maybe they can have 100 in an area, with usually 5-10 actually on your screen at once and occasionally spiking up to 20.  But 100 players on your screen at once animated independently and with independent 3D graphics, with the location of all players updated promptly in real time and without killing your frame rate?  I want a YouTube video of that, and I want to count.  Because I'm skeptical.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13309

4/10/13 9:12:14 PM#152
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

Bioware probably should've developed their own engine. Might have been better off (or better yet, even make money from selling the engine to others).

Making an engine for your own game and making an engine to license to others are two different animals.  If you make an engine for your own game, then you say, I don't need this capability for my particular game, so I don't need to implement it in the engine at all.  Adding more than that is just bloat that makes it harder to follow what your engine does and may harm performance.  But if your game engine only has the capabilities that your particular game needs and nothing more, then no one is going to want to license it, as other engines will have a lot more of the capabilities that they need.

  LogicLester

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/13
Posts: 67

4/10/13 9:36:59 PM#153
Originally posted by Elikal

And this is what I NEVER will understand, WHY ON EARTH SWTOR did NOT learn anything from SWG, and failed to add ANY sort of sandbox elements to keep people busy?! I don't get it. These sandbox elements were so popular in games like SWG or Ultima Online. People LOVED them. Can you imagine how cool SWTOR would have been with the present level of story PLUS sandbox elements? It would have been a killer game! And THAT is what MMOs need to do, they need to embrace the sandbox elements again! Give people stuff to do, player cities to build, full crafting economies to supply and weird non combat stuff like entertainers, musicians asf. to keep players busy beyond the quests and stories!

We few said so ALL ALONG. So we can only hope, TESO will be the last "classic" MMO as the pure themeparks are, because the future is sandbox-themeparks hybrids, and nothing else.

 

SWTOR learned a lot from SWG.  Hence they went with the "themepark" style gameplay of WoW.  Sandbox is still fringe at best, to make it more popular now would require a Heculean amount of coding to get those elements to form a more cohesive game that a majority of gamers would enjoy.  Which is why you see so very few AAA sandbox titles, and the few you do see incorporate lots of linear elements for mass market appeal.

 

And you have to be a bit of a revisionist to look at SWG and see anything other than a flop.  Sales?  SWG is a pipsqueak compared to SWTOR and it was never a serious competitor to its contemporaries, also like SWTOR.  Popularity?  Again, SWG is tiny and was an also-ran back in the day like SWTOR is now.  Innovation?  Well I'd say it's got SWTOR beat here, but not by much, the main difference being SWTOR copied WoW, while SWG copied UO.

 

I realize it's hard to tell when you're wearing those rose-colored glasses sometimes but come on.  I expect that when the next Star Wars MMO releases people will cry out, "How could you not learn anything from how awesome SWTOR was?!"

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

4/10/13 10:06:53 PM#154
Originally posted by LogicLester
Originally posted by Elikal

And this is what I NEVER will understand, WHY ON EARTH SWTOR did NOT learn anything from SWG, and failed to add ANY sort of sandbox elements to keep people busy?! I don't get it. These sandbox elements were so popular in games like SWG or Ultima Online. People LOVED them. Can you imagine how cool SWTOR would have been with the present level of story PLUS sandbox elements? It would have been a killer game! And THAT is what MMOs need to do, they need to embrace the sandbox elements again! Give people stuff to do, player cities to build, full crafting economies to supply and weird non combat stuff like entertainers, musicians asf. to keep players busy beyond the quests and stories!

We few said so ALL ALONG. So we can only hope, TESO will be the last "classic" MMO as the pure themeparks are, because the future is sandbox-themeparks hybrids, and nothing else.

 

SWTOR learned a lot from SWG.  Hence they went with the "themepark" style gameplay of WoW.  Sandbox is still fringe at best, to make it more popular now would require a Heculean amount of coding to get those elements to form a more cohesive game that a majority of gamers would enjoy.  Which is why you see so very few AAA sandbox titles, and the few you do see incorporate lots of linear elements for mass market appeal.

 

And you have to be a bit of a revisionist to look at SWG and see anything other than a flop.  Sales?  SWG is a pipsqueak compared to SWTOR and it was never a serious competitor to its contemporaries, also like SWTOR.  Popularity?  Again, SWG is tiny and was an also-ran back in the day like SWTOR is now.  Innovation?  Well I'd say it's got SWTOR beat here, but not by much, the main difference being SWTOR copied WoW, while SWG copied UO.

 

I realize it's hard to tell when you're wearing those rose-colored glasses sometimes but come on.  I expect that when the next Star Wars MMO releases people will cry out, "How could you not learn anything from how awesome SWTOR was?!"

lol youre making a joke right?

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

4/10/13 10:12:24 PM#155
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by Quizzical

7)  You can have 100 players on your screen with independent graphics, independent movements and attacks, moving around in real-time rather than turn-based, and without killing your frame rate or overloading your Internet connection.

Any one of those is a long, long way away from implying the next.  And color me skeptical that they can do #7.

 That maybe but that is by no means a monumental task... considering games like APB or even AoC or WAR already did it, so I doubt that FFXIV can't at least achieve some of that.

If such a medicore game like APB can do it (WITH fully customizable models mind you), I don't see how SWTOR can be doing soooo badly with just 10 people and no fully customizable cars WITH fully customizable tattoos/logos/colours/clothing or explosions or smoke effects.

the version of Heroes engine use by SWTOR must've been really terrible.

One hundred players on your screen at once, moving around in real time with independent 3D graphics?  Really?  I'm skeptical, as that really is hard to do.  It's not just that drawing 100 is hard; if you actually have 100 on your screen at once with anything other than an isometric overhead view, then you probably have an awful lot more than 100 who are close enough that the server needs to tell you where they are.  You can spin the camera around awfully fast, and if you don't even start loading assets until the camera moves, it will take a while for players who are just behind you to appear.

Maybe they can do 20 players on a screen at once.  Maybe they can have 100 in an area, with usually 5-10 actually on your screen at once and occasionally spiking up to 20.  But 100 players on your screen at once animated independently and with independent 3D graphics, with the location of all players updated promptly in real time and without killing your frame rate?  I want a YouTube video of that, and I want to count.  Because I'm skeptical.

Planetside 2 can do that I think.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  aRtFuLThinG

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1011

4/10/13 11:05:08 PM#156
Originally posted by Quizzical

One hundred players on your screen at once, moving around in real time with independent 3D graphics?  Really?  I'm skeptical, as that really is hard to do.  It's not just that drawing 100 is hard; if you actually have 100 on your screen at once with anything other than an isometric overhead view, then you probably have an awful lot more than 100 who are close enough that the server needs to tell you where they are.  You can spin the camera around awfully fast, and if you don't even start loading assets until the camera moves, it will take a while for players who are just behind you to appear.

Maybe they can do 20 players on a screen at once.  Maybe they can have 100 in an area, with usually 5-10 actually on your screen at once and occasionally spiking up to 20.  But 100 players on your screen at once animated independently and with independent 3D graphics, with the location of all players updated promptly in real time and without killing your frame rate?  I want a YouTube video of that, and I want to count.  Because I'm skeptical.

 Why don't you just Google those "evidence" yourself? It is not as if those videos are private domain, lol.

 

  aRtFuLThinG

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1011

4/10/13 11:07:45 PM#157
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

Bioware probably should've developed their own engine. Might have been better off (or better yet, even make money from selling the engine to others).

Making an engine for your own game and making an engine to license to others are two different animals.  If you make an engine for your own game, then you say, I don't need this capability for my particular game, so I don't need to implement it in the engine at all.  Adding more than that is just bloat that makes it harder to follow what your engine does and may harm performance.  But if your game engine only has the capabilities that your particular game needs and nothing more, then no one is going to want to license it, as other engines will have a lot more of the capabilities that they need.

 I did say "better yet", meaning the engine sales part is optional.

I know you like to defend that fact that Bioware had it hard with Hero engine, but that doesn't change the fact that they did made a wrong decision. Even, as the OP's article says, they freely admitted that.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13309

4/11/13 12:06:22 AM#158
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by Quizzical

One hundred players on your screen at once, moving around in real time with independent 3D graphics?  Really?  I'm skeptical, as that really is hard to do.  It's not just that drawing 100 is hard; if you actually have 100 on your screen at once with anything other than an isometric overhead view, then you probably have an awful lot more than 100 who are close enough that the server needs to tell you where they are.  You can spin the camera around awfully fast, and if you don't even start loading assets until the camera moves, it will take a while for players who are just behind you to appear.

Maybe they can do 20 players on a screen at once.  Maybe they can have 100 in an area, with usually 5-10 actually on your screen at once and occasionally spiking up to 20.  But 100 players on your screen at once animated independently and with independent 3D graphics, with the location of all players updated promptly in real time and without killing your frame rate?  I want a YouTube video of that, and I want to count.  Because I'm skeptical.

 Why don't you just Google those "evidence" yourself? It is not as if those videos are private domain, lol.

Because a Google search turns up videos with about 5 players on the screen at once.  If 100 is common and works fine, then give me a link.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13309

4/11/13 12:10:48 AM#159
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

Bioware probably should've developed their own engine. Might have been better off (or better yet, even make money from selling the engine to others).

Making an engine for your own game and making an engine to license to others are two different animals.  If you make an engine for your own game, then you say, I don't need this capability for my particular game, so I don't need to implement it in the engine at all.  Adding more than that is just bloat that makes it harder to follow what your engine does and may harm performance.  But if your game engine only has the capabilities that your particular game needs and nothing more, then no one is going to want to license it, as other engines will have a lot more of the capabilities that they need.

 I did say "better yet", meaning the engine sales part is optional.

I know you like to defend that fact that Bioware had it hard with Hero engine, but that doesn't change the fact that they did made a wrong decision. Even, as the OP's article says, they freely admitted that.

I wouldn't read that so much as EA saying "we goofed up" as "it's not our fault; it's the fault of the Hero Engine".  If the problem is that SWTOR has a bad game engine, then at a bare minimum, EA bears the bulk of the blame, and it's only a question of why.  Even if Hero Engine were astonishingly terrible, when you have full access to change it in any way you want, it's possible to modify it into a very good game engine--albeit one that doesn't much resemble what you started with.

It could be as simple as that they weren't able to retain any employee who is good at creating and/or modifying a graphics engine for the duration of the game's development.  If so, then that will create a ton of problems for you no matter what engine you try to use, whether you make your own or license and modify another.  That can easily happen if your crack engine developer leaves the project at some point, or if someone you thought would be good at it simply wasn't.  Or it can happen if management simply doesn't allow a very good employee to take the time that is necessary to do things right.

  simplius

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/12
Posts: 979

4/11/13 2:37:12 AM#160

so,,when the patient dies, because the doctor tried to do surgery with a thermometer,

we arrest the thermometer?

no, the very FIRST rule of any craftsman, is choosing the right tool for the job

specially on a big budget project like this

 

11 Pages First « 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 » Search