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General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » 'The market has spoken very loudly that [F2P] is the model they like'

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365 posts found
  Warley

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/12
Posts: 150

4/03/13 1:37:15 PM#41
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Originally posted by Warley
Originally posted by free2play
Originally posted by doodphace

Really? The Market decided that? What would Blizzard and CCP have to say about that?

The market did not decide FTP for MMOs.....the market decided FTP for poorly made, no content "multiyplayer games".

They want the impulse buyers. F2P is the online version of infomercials. Fake demand to accomodate over supply.

Funny thing is there was 'no demand' for free-to-play. People were fine with subscription games - as long as those games delivered on content and content updates.

We were happy with paying our £x a month because that was the cheapest price at the time.  We allways want value for money and now we know mmorgs can deliver at much lower costs than £x a month we can see that games with subsciption models are failing to compete (e.g by either drastically improve content delivery to justify cost or reduce costs)

To get the same level of content in a subscription game you have to pay a lot more money when playing a f2p game.

  Warley

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/12
Posts: 150

4/03/13 1:37:59 PM#42
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Warley
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Warley
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Title is quote from an EA exec on the free to play model.

 Full article: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-04-02-ea-mobile-boss-freemium-haters-a-vocal-minority

The numbers are being misrepresented here. It can be simplified and understood this way:

Game A (Premium):

10,000 people who bought it

Game B (Free-To-Play):

50,000 people play it

5,000 people pay for the nickel & dime scheme (10% conversation, VERY VERY HIGH)

Of course, 50,000 is a bigger number than 10,000 so -for marketing/pr purposes- you twist this around.

Now, Game B may make more money than Game A, but that's because Game B 'whales' have to PAY FAR MORE MONEY to get the same experience as Game A. Therefore, in the end, to get the same experience as those in Game A the 'whales' in Game B have to pay a HIGHER PREMIUM.

 

 

 

You were right on the money until the section in red.  Why do they have to pay more to get the same experience.  Maybe the f2p people are getting the same experience as what most subs offer, and the whales are paying more for a greater experience.

See - it's totally subjective. 

True, it can all be subjective. Just like how people have a 'greater experience' planting crops in a Facebook game. The reality is that if you want a game with as much depth and content as a premium game then you have to pay a 'much higher price' in a f2p game to get there. 

The only reason why companies like f2p is because they like the idea of having no ceiling to the amount of money they can collect from any one person.

The subjective part not only come in with your particular experience but also on what you view as depth and content.  What you stated is not necessarily realted but again perception.

I submit that many free to play games have just as much depth and content available to free users as most p2p games. 

Like which game?

  Bigdaddyx

Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1512

4/03/13 1:41:13 PM#43
Originally posted by Warley
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Originally posted by Warley
Originally posted by free2play
Originally posted by doodphace

Really? The Market decided that? What would Blizzard and CCP have to say about that?

The market did not decide FTP for MMOs.....the market decided FTP for poorly made, no content "multiyplayer games".

They want the impulse buyers. F2P is the online version of infomercials. Fake demand to accomodate over supply.

Funny thing is there was 'no demand' for free-to-play. People were fine with subscription games - as long as those games delivered on content and content updates.

We were happy with paying our £x a month because that was the cheapest price at the time.  We allways want value for money and now we know mmorgs can deliver at much lower costs than £x a month we can see that games with subsciption models are failing to compete (e.g by either drastically improve content delivery to justify cost or reduce costs)

To get the same level of content in a subscription game you have to pay a lot more money when playing a f2p game.

No you don't have to ofcourse if you are smart. You just have to spend 15 bucks a month to get access to entire game.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3264

4/03/13 1:41:24 PM#44

Eve (PLEX), GW1, GW2.

Turn it on its head, how many sub games provide value for money with their £100+ a year sub fee in comparison to the above?

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/03/13 1:45:39 PM#45
Originally posted by Warley
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Warley
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Warley
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Title is quote from an EA exec on the free to play model.

 Full article: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-04-02-ea-mobile-boss-freemium-haters-a-vocal-minority

The numbers are being misrepresented here. It can be simplified and understood this way:

Game A (Premium):

10,000 people who bought it

Game B (Free-To-Play):

50,000 people play it

5,000 people pay for the nickel & dime scheme (10% conversation, VERY VERY HIGH)

Of course, 50,000 is a bigger number than 10,000 so -for marketing/pr purposes- you twist this around.

Now, Game B may make more money than Game A, but that's because Game B 'whales' have to PAY FAR MORE MONEY to get the same experience as Game A. Therefore, in the end, to get the same experience as those in Game A the 'whales' in Game B have to pay a HIGHER PREMIUM.

 

 

 

You were right on the money until the section in red.  Why do they have to pay more to get the same experience.  Maybe the f2p people are getting the same experience as what most subs offer, and the whales are paying more for a greater experience.

See - it's totally subjective. 

True, it can all be subjective. Just like how people have a 'greater experience' planting crops in a Facebook game. The reality is that if you want a game with as much depth and content as a premium game then you have to pay a 'much higher price' in a f2p game to get there. 

The only reason why companies like f2p is because they like the idea of having no ceiling to the amount of money they can collect from any one person.

The subjective part not only come in with your particular experience but also on what you view as depth and content.  What you stated is not necessarily realted but again perception.

I submit that many free to play games have just as much depth and content available to free users as most p2p games. 

Like which game?

well DDO, LOTRO right off the bat.  Eve with plex

EQ and EQ2 now have all races/classes for f2p.  The shop just gives added bonus, extra mounts, costume slot... none of which was in the game before.

FE had a pretty good system I don't recall any content being locked out of f2p users.

and again GW1 and 2 which has all the same things as a cs game.

So as others have stated what benefits does paying $150/year plus box give me that I'm not allready getting?

edit - last part was a bit tongue in cheek.  In many games there is a difference.

But there are enough games out now with good f2p models that we cannot state as a blanket statement anymore that f2p limits depth and content.  Espectially because in most cases saying a game is deeper is meaningless. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  steelwind

Elite Member

Joined: 8/04/04
Posts: 268

4/03/13 1:53:13 PM#46

The only thing I hear spoken loudly is that the instant gratification/I want it now crowd is too poor and cheap to be able to afford $15/mo and would rather not invest anything into their MMO while expecting the same content and experience that P2P games provide. If you can't cough up $15/mo for hundreds of hours of gameplay imho you have bigger issues. Demanding that all games cater to cheapskates and freeloaders equate to every game activity attempting to funnel it's playerbase to the cash shop. Funneling players to cash shop does nothing to enhance the gaming experience and provides nothing but roadblocks.

Personally, I have a job and can afford to pay for a game I feel is worthy of my money, hell I'd pay $50/mo for a game if it was good enough. Just because you are poor and cheap doesn't mean the entire MMO industry has to change it's model for you, how about fixing the reason you can't afford $15/mo and get back to us?!

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5547

4/03/13 1:55:06 PM#47
Originally posted by steelwind

The only thing I hear spoken loudly is that the instant gratification/I want it now crowd is too poor and cheap to be able to afford $15/mo and would rather not invest anything into their MMO while expecting the same content and experience that P2P games provide. If you can't cough up $15/mo for hundreds of hours of gameplay imho you have bigger issues. Demanding that all games cater to cheapskates and freeloaders equate to every game activity attempting to funnel it's playerbase to the cash shop. Funneling players to cash shop does nothing to enhance the gaming experience and provides nothing but roadblocks.

Personally, I have a job and can afford to pay for a game I feel is worthy of my money, hell I'd pay $50/mo for a game if it was good enough. Just because you are poor and cheap doesn't mean the entire MMO industry has to change it's model for you, how about fixing the reason you can't afford $15/mo and get back to us?!

A huge percentage of the MMO industry has already changed.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/03/13 1:57:05 PM#48

Well thats a rather skewed and complete unaccurate view of f2p games now isn't it.

instant gratification - many f2p games have things that take longer than p2p games.

I doubt the "poor" has anything to do with a company choosing their particular sub model

"funnelling all the players into the cs" - A f2p has to be fun first.  If it is not fun no one will spend money.  Unlike a p2p game where they at least have your 15 dollars before you ever stepped in the game. 

Roadblocks - I find just as many roadblocks in p2p as I do in f2p.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  bizoux86

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 85

4/03/13 1:58:53 PM#49
Yeah, no. I disagree with the F2P model - everytime I try to play a f2p game it is full of gold spammers, trolls, awful communities, nonexistent CM's and usually they go P2Win in the end...   I much prefer a subscription model in my games, I would rather pay the $15/month for a better overall game!
  steelwind

Elite Member

Joined: 8/04/04
Posts: 268

4/03/13 1:59:22 PM#50
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by steelwind

The only thing I hear spoken loudly is that the instant gratification/I want it now crowd is too poor and cheap to be able to afford $15/mo and would rather not invest anything into their MMO while expecting the same content and experience that P2P games provide. If you can't cough up $15/mo for hundreds of hours of gameplay imho you have bigger issues. Demanding that all games cater to cheapskates and freeloaders equate to every game activity attempting to funnel it's playerbase to the cash shop. Funneling players to cash shop does nothing to enhance the gaming experience and provides nothing but roadblocks.

Personally, I have a job and can afford to pay for a game I feel is worthy of my money, hell I'd pay $50/mo for a game if it was good enough. Just because you are poor and cheap doesn't mean the entire MMO industry has to change it's model for you, how about fixing the reason you can't afford $15/mo and get back to us?!

A huge percentage of the MMO industry has already changed.

And how is that turning out?

Last I checked, just about every F2P game is struggling to maintain subs. Please don't mention GW2 because that is the prime example of funneling players through the cash-shop limiting just about everything you do so you can buy those gems or grab that new skin from the cash shop instead of being able to simply farm for things?

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5547

4/03/13 2:00:42 PM#51
Originally posted by steelwind
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by steelwind

The only thing I hear spoken loudly is that the instant gratification/I want it now crowd is too poor and cheap to be able to afford $15/mo and would rather not invest anything into their MMO while expecting the same content and experience that P2P games provide. If you can't cough up $15/mo for hundreds of hours of gameplay imho you have bigger issues. Demanding that all games cater to cheapskates and freeloaders equate to every game activity attempting to funnel it's playerbase to the cash shop. Funneling players to cash shop does nothing to enhance the gaming experience and provides nothing but roadblocks.

Personally, I have a job and can afford to pay for a game I feel is worthy of my money, hell I'd pay $50/mo for a game if it was good enough. Just because you are poor and cheap doesn't mean the entire MMO industry has to change it's model for you, how about fixing the reason you can't afford $15/mo and get back to us?!

A huge percentage of the MMO industry has already changed.

And how is that turning out?

Last I checked, just about every F2P game is struggling to maintain subs. Please don't mention GW2 because that is the prime example of funneling players through the cash-shop limiting just about everything you do so you covert those gems or grab that new skin from the cash shop instead of being able to simple farm for things?

There are more players playing MMORPGs than ever before in the history of MMORPGs.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  JoeyMMO

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/11
Posts: 1326

To busy playing GW2 to post much around here... *shrug*

4/03/13 2:01:31 PM#52
Originally posted by bcbully

Sub is just fine.

B2P is evil. Anything with a 60$ upfront fee is evil. 

Free is to intrusive.

Most sub game require you to buy the game first, so I don't see how sub can be fine if B2P is evil. Free would be fine if there were no such thing as greed when they get high enough player numbers.

B2P is the middle ground between evil and evil. :)

Edit: typo

  Warley

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/12
Posts: 150

4/03/13 2:02:08 PM#53
Originally posted by bizoux86
Yeah, no. I disagree with the F2P model - everytime I try to play a f2p game it is full of gold spammers, trolls, awful communities, nonexistent CM's and usually they go P2Win in the end...   I much prefer a subscription model in my games, I would rather pay the $15/month for a better overall game!

But, it's all subjective!

/sarcasm

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/03/13 2:02:22 PM#54
Originally posted by steelwind
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by steelwind

The only thing I hear spoken loudly is that the instant gratification/I want it now crowd is too poor and cheap to be able to afford $15/mo and would rather not invest anything into their MMO while expecting the same content and experience that P2P games provide. If you can't cough up $15/mo for hundreds of hours of gameplay imho you have bigger issues. Demanding that all games cater to cheapskates and freeloaders equate to every game activity attempting to funnel it's playerbase to the cash shop. Funneling players to cash shop does nothing to enhance the gaming experience and provides nothing but roadblocks.

Personally, I have a job and can afford to pay for a game I feel is worthy of my money, hell I'd pay $50/mo for a game if it was good enough. Just because you are poor and cheap doesn't mean the entire MMO industry has to change it's model for you, how about fixing the reason you can't afford $15/mo and get back to us?!

A huge percentage of the MMO industry has already changed.

And how is that turning out?

Last I checked, just about every F2P game is struggling to maintain subs. Please don't mention GW2 because that is the prime example of funneling players through the cash-shop limiting just about everything you do so you covert those gems or grab that new skin from the cash shop instead of being able to simply farm for things?

 Thats not a reflection of f2p as many p2p games are struggling to maintain subs as well

 Many ftp and p2p are doing just fine.

 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/03/13 2:03:19 PM#55
Originally posted by Warley
Originally posted by bizoux86
Yeah, no. I disagree with the F2P model - everytime I try to play a f2p game it is full of gold spammers, trolls, awful communities, nonexistent CM's and usually they go P2Win in the end...   I much prefer a subscription model in my games, I would rather pay the $15/month for a better overall game!

But, it's all subjective!

/sarcasm

 I've noticed about the same level of gold spammers in p2p as f2p.  So yes, perception is key.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Warley

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/12
Posts: 150

4/03/13 2:03:27 PM#56
Originally posted by JoeyMMO
Originally posted by bcbully

Sub is just fine.

B2P is evil. Anything with a 60$ upfront fee is evil. 

Free is to intrusive.

Most sub game require you to buy the game first, so I don't see how sub can be fine if B2P is evil. Free would be fine if there were no such thing as greed when they get high enough player numbers.

B2P is the middle ground between evil and evil. :)

Edit: typo

Just so you know: GW isn't B2P. It's B2P + Cash Shop.

  Bigdaddyx

Elite Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1512

4/03/13 2:04:10 PM#57
Originally posted by bcbully

Sub is just fine.

 

B2P is evil. Anything with a 60$ upfront fee is evil. 

 

Free is to intrusive.

Ehh? you pay 50 to 60 bucks for sub games too. and on top of that 15 bucks every month. And you say B2P is evil? lol

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3264

4/03/13 2:04:37 PM#58
Originally posted by steelwind
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by steelwind

The only thing I hear spoken loudly is that the instant gratification/I want it now crowd is too poor and cheap to be able to afford $15/mo and would rather not invest anything into their MMO while expecting the same content and experience that P2P games provide. If you can't cough up $15/mo for hundreds of hours of gameplay imho you have bigger issues. Demanding that all games cater to cheapskates and freeloaders equate to every game activity attempting to funnel it's playerbase to the cash shop. Funneling players to cash shop does nothing to enhance the gaming experience and provides nothing but roadblocks.

Personally, I have a job and can afford to pay for a game I feel is worthy of my money, hell I'd pay $50/mo for a game if it was good enough. Just because you are poor and cheap doesn't mean the entire MMO industry has to change it's model for you, how about fixing the reason you can't afford $15/mo and get back to us?!

A huge percentage of the MMO industry has already changed.

And how is that turning out?

Last I checked, just about every F2P game is struggling to maintain subs. Please don't mention GW2 because that is the prime example of funneling players through the cash-shop limiting just about everything you do so you covert those gems or grab that new skin from the cash shop instead of being able to simple farm for things?

 GW2 is successful, profitable, produces new content as fas or faster than any other game. Its free to play, and you are not forced into using the cash shop - in fact as you say you can buy gems with gold or farm or both or neither, so where exactly is the 'funnelling' ?

example: I iave paid on average £2 a month on GW2 (bags at start) thats given me 682 hours of gameplay.  If I payed wow for that same period of time I would have paid £60+  Spot the value for money.  F2P and entirely optional cash shop goods is the future.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  steelwind

Elite Member

Joined: 8/04/04
Posts: 268

4/03/13 2:06:11 PM#59
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by steelwind
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by steelwind

The only thing I hear spoken loudly is that the instant gratification/I want it now crowd is too poor and cheap to be able to afford $15/mo and would rather not invest anything into their MMO while expecting the same content and experience that P2P games provide. If you can't cough up $15/mo for hundreds of hours of gameplay imho you have bigger issues. Demanding that all games cater to cheapskates and freeloaders equate to every game activity attempting to funnel it's playerbase to the cash shop. Funneling players to cash shop does nothing to enhance the gaming experience and provides nothing but roadblocks.

Personally, I have a job and can afford to pay for a game I feel is worthy of my money, hell I'd pay $50/mo for a game if it was good enough. Just because you are poor and cheap doesn't mean the entire MMO industry has to change it's model for you, how about fixing the reason you can't afford $15/mo and get back to us?!

A huge percentage of the MMO industry has already changed.

And how is that turning out?

Last I checked, just about every F2P game is struggling to maintain subs. Please don't mention GW2 because that is the prime example of funneling players through the cash-shop limiting just about everything you do so you covert those gems or grab that new skin from the cash shop instead of being able to simple farm for things?

There are more players playing MMORPGs than ever before in the history of MMORPGs.

And at the same time we have the least local player base in history and MMO"s which were originally made for long-term commitments measured in years has turned in to months if not days. People playing MMO's like single players games, consuming content then abandoning them isn't what MMO's are supposed to be about.

The funniest thing is that it is the definition of insanity "repeating the same mistakes over and over expecting different results". F2P and the crowd that supports it, is one of the driving factors that is ruining what MMO's were supposed to be. I truly believe nothing will change, AAA MMO's with actual deep content as well as long term support via patches and innovation will continue to be P2P and the others, you will get what you pay for....

  ego13

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/04
Posts: 287

Hell is other people. - Sartre

4/03/13 2:08:45 PM#60

"The market" being mostly kids that can't afford games?

 

Most of my peers, 25+ adults, would prefer to pay and sub for a game that has real support, less children, and great content.

Not that anything like that exists yet...but we're waiting.

 

F2P is the dominion of kids and freeloaders and has failed to produce anything better than most console games.  On top of that, take away the sub and the income; the companies have to reduce staff support then you have to deal with that much more drama from the kids that are unpoliced.  No thanks.

Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

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