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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Does a crafter class really make sense?

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112 posts found
  belatucadros

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 272

4/04/13 7:39:21 AM#61

I've been thinking and what I am envisioning is this.

Progression is supposed to be more lateral, right? No crushing brand new people just because, etc.

As ClassX, you level up and I guess primarily gain new skills. While going from not having a heal to having a heal is vastly powerful, your actual damage/etc don't necessarily increase by much.

You have your base attacks, whatever yoru class provides you, and then you grab more skills as you level up (Did anyone play planetside? It had a great system for this, with 24-hour respec windows)

Now, as a crafter (read: "Engineer") - you have base combat skills.

As you level up, you gain more crafting skills (beyond what the regular folk learn), as well as maybe traps/etc.

So while you can contribute at a base level in a group fight (traps, entry level skills), where you really shine is a siege. (turrets, walls, trebuchets etc)

Because you have combat capability - and maybe more utility (think nearsight or PBAE disease type of stuff) - you're not a dead slot in a group.

IMO a combat-capable version is the best way to go.

People who just want to craft will be free to do so - and level up that way - but if you DO take part in combat, you're not just standing around praying that we take that keep for you.

Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
Healer, Warrior, Skald

  Daizedd

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/13
Posts: 143

4/04/13 8:26:56 AM#62
Crafters should NOT be able to fight period. You wanna fight, roll a non-crafter toon. I think the game will be way more interesting if crafters NEED protection from fighting chars just as much as fighting chars will NEED what crafters can make.

  belatucadros

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 272

4/04/13 8:42:02 AM#63
Originally posted by Daizedd
Crafters should NOT be able to fight period. You wanna fight, roll a non-crafter toon. I think the game will be way more interesting if crafters NEED protection from fighting chars just as much as fighting chars will NEED what crafters can make.

I think this would be a big mistake.

Yes, you should absolutely NOT have to engage in combat- but considering it's an actual class, I think base combat is OK. Considering the lateral advancement(probably?) this could work well.

 

But nobody wants to waste a group slot on someone who can't contribute to the battle untill we siege a keep. And as fun as escorting crafters to/from a siege is, it'd be nice if you could bring someone without without carrying them.

 

edit: fixed a slip that changed the entire post aha.

Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
Healer, Warrior, Skald

  TierlessTime

Columnist

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2163

Nothing is til it is and even then you never know until its been.

4/04/13 9:19:46 AM#64

Picture this but with players filling each role.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBRr-PCqdWk

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

4/04/13 10:13:31 AM#65
Originally posted by Daizedd
Crafters should NOT be able to fight period. You wanna fight, roll a non-crafter toon. I think the game will be way more interesting if crafters NEED protection from fighting chars just as much as fighting chars will NEED what crafters can make.

I agree.  Nor should healers be able to fight... or casters... or stealthers, either!  And there's NO WAY a speed buff class should be able to fight... period.

Come on, Daizedd.  That's just kinda silly.  Everyone CAN fight... how WELL they can fight is another matter.  I wouldn't take a caster into melee... but that caster can certainly swing a staff or dagger if prevented from casting.

I agree with your point that crafters should need protection... just as a caster or healer should.  But to eliminate any fighting ability is over the top.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  Daizedd

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/13
Posts: 143

4/04/13 10:22:30 AM#66

Right, I'll modify my statement slightly; crafters should not be able to survive a 1v1 against a fighting OR even a healing class. There is a reasoning behind this:

1) Choice matters. You choose to be a crafter class you shouldn't have your cake and eat it.

2) As an RvR class, going out in defense of a crafter(s) is part of the coordination/community building and interesting stuff that will make this game great. If crafters can fend for themselves, then RvR  fighters should be able to craft beyond journeyman (all a journeyman can do is make basic repairs). It will just make for a boring, everyone can do everything game. I just know MJ will not do this.

  TierlessTime

Columnist

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2163

Nothing is til it is and even then you never know until its been.

4/04/13 10:25:39 AM#67

I want crafters to have some smuggling like abilities. Some cheep moves that have huge cooldowns and give them a chance to run, but nothing that gives them the advantage, just gives them a second to run.

I also think they should be able to use what they have as a weapon to do some white damage. For ex. if they have high level mining then they can hit you with the pick, or maybe they have 1 move, for one stun with the pick, then they can start to run away.

The above make for a much more interesting experience. If the crafters have no defense, they will just log off at the first sign of trouble and relog as their warrior whom they have stationed near by.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  belatucadros

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 272

4/04/13 10:44:37 AM#68
Originally posted by Daizedd

Right, I'll modify my statement slightly; crafters should not be able to survive a 1v1 against a fighting OR even a healing class. There is a reasoning behind this:

1) Choice matters. You choose to be a crafter class you shouldn't have your cake and eat it.

2) As an RvR class, going out in defense of a crafter(s) is part of the coordination/community building and interesting stuff that will make this game great. If crafters can fend for themselves, then RvR  fighters should be able to craft beyond journeyman (all a journeyman can do is make basic repairs). It will just make for a boring, everyone can do everything game. I just know MJ will not do this.

it's not about fending for yourself or soloing; it's about being to contribute to a group outside of "lol let me build a fort here", IMO.

Having some base combat skills + some utlilty (traps/whatever) goes a long way to convincing people to drag crafters around - and the crafters get to have some fun in a group vs group encounter, instead of "wake me when we start a siege"

Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
Healer, Warrior, Skald

  Daizedd

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/13
Posts: 143

4/04/13 10:47:09 AM#69
Originally posted by Xobdnas

 If the crafters have no defense, they will just log off at the first sign of trouble and relog as their warrior whom they have stationed near by.

My point is if they have no to little defense, then they will need to organise with RvRers if they want to do stuff in dangerous territory and this makes for a much more community oriented and player-organised game.

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

4/04/13 10:48:32 AM#70
Originally posted by Daizedd

Right, I'll modify my statement slightly; crafters should not be able to survive a 1v1 against a fighting OR even a healing class. There is a reasoning behind this:

1) Choice matters. You choose to be a crafter class you shouldn't have your cake and eat it.

2) As an RvR class, going out in defense of a crafter(s) is part of the coordination/community building and interesting stuff that will make this game great. If crafters can fend for themselves, then RvR  fighters should be able to craft beyond journeyman (all a journeyman can do is make basic repairs). It will just make for a boring, everyone can do everything game. I just know MJ will not do this.

Agreed.  I'm hoping we'll see some cool abilities like setting traps and such so they won't be dead weight in a group in a non-siege setting.

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  TierlessTime

Columnist

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2163

Nothing is til it is and even then you never know until its been.

4/04/13 10:53:11 AM#71


Originally posted by Daizedd

Originally posted by Xobdnas  If the crafters have no defense, they will just log off at the first sign of trouble and relog as their warrior whom they have stationed near by.
My point is if they have no to little defense, then they will need to organise with RvRers if they want to do stuff in dangerous territory and this makes for a much more community oriented and player-organised game.

I agree with that concept completely. With the few abilities I mentioned they would still rely on other players, it would just make it more exciting for them for a split second.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  Daizedd

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/13
Posts: 143

4/04/13 10:53:38 AM#72

The reason people will be willing to "drag" crafters along is often the crafter will be the reason they are going somewhere in the first place. For example a crafter needs to mine a rare resource in a dangerous RvR area; his fighter guildies come along to defend him getting there and then while he mines. In fact I envision crafters almost like quest-givers who need things out there and are in search of adventurers to come help defend them in the wildlands.

 

edit: this is a reaction to Bela's last post, sorry forgot to quote

  erictlewis

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/08
Posts: 3067

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

4/04/13 11:00:19 AM#73
Back in the day before the CU on swg we had crafters who that was their profession.  Some of us actually advertised how we were specialized out. Not all crafters at that time could craft the same identical thing.  Some of us made stuff a lot better than just normal folks who dabbled in it.  I had a master driod smith, every time we went to the dwb, I could garantee that if our group got us to the crafting station, I could garantee you a jetpack, I never once failed creating one.  Others in our guild tried and lost components, and those were hard to come by.   I see nothing wrong with having a dedicated crafter class, as long as they give them survivability. 
  Daizedd

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/13
Posts: 143

4/04/13 11:07:58 AM#74
Originally posted by erictlewis
 as long as they give them survivability. 

I am certainly not arguing that they would be one-shot if attacked. They should maybe have one escape and certainly decent leather armor and some HP. BUT, going after an opponent's crafters should be a viable strategy, ie they should be killable and easier to kill/unable to cause serious dammage compared to a fighter. A crafter should be able to avoid death for a few minutes but a crafter left undefended for too long is screwed... he needs help out there. Fighters need crafters for  the cool stuff they can make/ crafters need fighters to get the stuff used to make the cool stuff. This makes for a real economy of give and take.

  Andrus73

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/16/06
Posts: 70

4/04/13 11:09:25 AM#75

I'm curious as to the amount of self-sufficiency the crafter will have.  Will he/she in effect be a guild crafter because of the amount of support they will need from other people to get materials or advance?

The downside of that scenario is if said guild crafter leaves the guild or quits the game after considerable resources have been invested in their development.

If they can be more self-sufficient, then obviously there will be many alt crafters due to low cost of investment.

  belatucadros

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 272

4/04/13 11:21:35 AM#76
Originally posted by Daizedd

The reason people will be willing to "drag" crafters along is often the crafter will be the reason they are going somewhere in the first place. For example a crafter needs to mine a rare resource in a dangerous RvR area; his fighter guildies come along to defend him getting there and then while he mines. In fact I envision crafters almost like quest-givers who need things out there and are in search of adventurers to come help defend them in the wildlands.

 

edit: this is a reaction to Bela's last post, sorry forgot to quote

I imagine anyone will be able to farm resources if such a thing exists.

However I can easily see myself having essentially a "buffbot" account with a crafter, if they're not going to be a viable part of combat.

Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
Healer, Warrior, Skald

  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

4/04/13 1:27:30 PM#77

Originally posted by Arbroath
MJ has mentioned that he would like to have many character slots available for alts. My concern is that even though your characters can't have great fighting and crafter skills, what stops everyone from making a crafter alt and saturating the class? I definately plan on playing a crafter as my main and worry about becoming just another crafter like the 1000s of alt crafters that will be out there. Making me obsolete like every other game I've played.

You won't have to worry about that. If you go read the Foundational Principle on crafting again, MJ said you won't be able to drop some gold on an alt and have a good crafter in no time, but than getting a high level of craft would take as much time as getting a high level fighter.

Originally posted by belatucadros

Originally posted by Daizedd

The reason people will be willing to "drag" crafters along is often the crafter will be the reason they are going somewhere in the first place. For example a crafter needs to mine a rare resource in a dangerous RvR area; his fighter guildies come along to defend him getting there and then while he mines. In fact I envision crafters almost like quest-givers who need things out there and are in search of adventurers to come help defend them in the wildlands.

 

edit: this is a reaction to Bela's last post, sorry forgot to quote

I imagine anyone will be able to farm resources if such a thing exists.

However I can easily see myself having essentially a "buffbot" account with a crafter, if they're not going to be a viable part of combat.

If you look at it another way, did you ever see a group with no dps, or no healer, or mostly composed of pure healer (that can't DPS)? Did you ever see a visible group with a stealther?

 

No, unless there really is a lack of players. Or in a zerg. If you want to play a stealther, then the visible groups won't take you. And you have to play in a certain way. Why would you need it different with crafters? If you take your stealther, you go for the stealth war, waiting a ton to find an opening, and then hope you didn't missed something that will kill you. If you have a crafter, you go for keep fights, you help defend/attack the door, walls, drop and disable traps, making/using siege weapons.

 

About the bot, crafting will probably require to be actively doing something, so it would be like having a bard bot (speed and CC class) and a caster. You can do it but you won't be able to play both at the same time.

  belatucadros

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 272

4/04/13 1:48:03 PM#78
Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic

Originally posted by Arbroath
MJ has mentioned that he would like to have many character slots available for alts. My concern is that even though your characters can't have great fighting and crafter skills, what stops everyone from making a crafter alt and saturating the class? I definately plan on playing a crafter as my main and worry about becoming just another crafter like the 1000s of alt crafters that will be out there. Making me obsolete like every other game I've played.

You won't have to worry about that. If you go read the Foundational Principle on crafting again, MJ said you won't be able to drop some gold on an alt and have a good crafter in no time, but than getting a high level of craft would take as much time as getting a high level fighter.

Originally posted by belatucadros

Originally posted by Daizedd

The reason people will be willing to "drag" crafters along is often the crafter will be the reason they are going somewhere in the first place. For example a crafter needs to mine a rare resource in a dangerous RvR area; his fighter guildies come along to defend him getting there and then while he mines. In fact I envision crafters almost like quest-givers who need things out there and are in search of adventurers to come help defend them in the wildlands.

 

edit: this is a reaction to Bela's last post, sorry forgot to quote

I imagine anyone will be able to farm resources if such a thing exists.

However I can easily see myself having essentially a "buffbot" account with a crafter, if they're not going to be a viable part of combat.

If you look at it another way, did you ever see a group with no dps, or no healer, or mostly composed of pure healer (that can't DPS)? Did you ever see a visible group with a stealther?

 

No, unless there really is a lack of players. Or in a zerg. If you want to play a stealther, then the visible groups won't take you. And you have to play in a certain way. Why would you need it different with crafters? If you take your stealther, you go for the stealth war, waiting a ton to find an opening, and then hope you didn't missed something that will kill you. If you have a crafter, you go for keep fights, you help defend/attack the door, walls, drop and disable traps, making/using siege weapons.

 

About the bot, crafting will probably require to be actively doing something, so it would be like having a bard bot (speed and CC class) and a caster. You can do it but you won't be able to play both at the same time.

it's not about playing both. It's about having the ability to do high level crafting when required, without wasting a slot in our group for it ;\

Eldritch, Nightshade, Warden, Druid, Mauler, Mentalist
Sorcerer, Necromancer, Theurgist, Armsman, Cleric
Healer, Warrior, Skald

  Hatefull

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/09/04
Posts: 788

Your tears make my gun work better.

4/04/13 1:52:20 PM#79
Originally posted by Caldrin

yup sounds good to me...

The crafter class can also be in a fight as well and will play a key role in the battlefield..

It also sounded to me in the main video that other classes could craft as well but just basic stuff.. still will have to wait and see.

Agreed, The mention of a crafter class is what actually made me start taking a real interest in this game.

If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  Thedrizzle

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/30/06
Posts: 331

BWC

4/04/13 2:00:48 PM#80
Originally posted by DMKano

I say let the crafter build a laser they can mount on their head, I'd let them in my group at that point.

Seriously give crafters a single powerful weapon only they can fire, put it on a long cool down but give em something.

Just because they like to craft doesn't mean they can't at least fire a weapon once in a while.

Bringing a class that can't compete in a competitive RvR game makes no sense.

 

Agreed.. If a player somehow signs a pact to be a professional crafter, they should be able to hold a skill like an AOE Silence/Mez that will give them the ability to escape. Have it on a 15 min cooldown or something like that.

Maybe an AOE earthquake spell that knocks down all enemies in such a radius, but can only be used in while harvesting or in harvesting areas

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