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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Endgame

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48 posts found

Associate Editor - News Manager

Joined: 6/28/10
Posts: 16226

OP  4/01/13 3:11:56 PM#1

The elusive end game is what many MMO players are looking for in order to keep playing the same game for long months on end. In today's column, Matt Miller offers his thoughts on the end game. See what this industry veteran has to say before joining the conversation in the comments.

For every “gear/money to get gear/make my character more powerful” answer there was a “roleplay/badges/exploration” answer right around the corner. Throw in a couple of people who wanted good PVP, some wanting good teaming content and some wanting a continued solo content path, and your answers covered the whole spectrum of what a developer could do in their endgame.

Read more of Matt Miller's Endgame.

Associate Editor:
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom


Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/22/12
Posts: 372

4/02/13 2:18:58 PM#2

I prefer sandbox simply because the content seems to last longer. If I could get a solid 5yrs out of a themepark without repeating the same content over and over I would play that as well. I like themeparks as much as I like the new Marvel movies. Good for a couple of hours to kill time but nothing too deep. On to the next themepark shortly after.


I would like something that lasts longer, call it what you want. What keeps people coming back to anything? The people. Find a way to get people to really connect in your game and make lasting relationships and you won't have to worry about population or longevity. People will put up with a ton of abuse if it means they can still keep in touch with friends.


Novice Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 7

4/02/13 2:51:29 PM#3
For me its all about knowing your the best of the best, staying the best and showing off to everyone that you are the best. In collecting gear, PvP & the guild/clan scene be best at it all.
  User Deleted
4/02/13 3:25:52 PM#4
2nd Liie

Novice Member

Joined: 5/08/08
Posts: 922

nanu nanu

4/02/13 3:42:02 PM#5

My first MMO was Guild Wars. I didn't realize it wasn't a real MMO because it had the best end game in GvG and HA/Tombs. I didn't understand why everyone else were complaining about all the other MMO's.

To me end game is competitive PVP, unfortunately the original Guild Wars had the only decent one at that. Even GW2 PvP failed.


Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/11
Posts: 568


4/02/13 4:03:42 PM#6


Devs think that creating a ton of scripted content for end game is going to keep players. More and more scripted content is always their answer..


the answer is simple..


Players want prestige..   End game is about prestige, wealth, bragging rights, and character power. Create systems that allow  you to build on those attributes and you have an awesome endgame.

The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.

The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...


Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 7

4/02/13 4:05:04 PM#7
PoE seems to get the concept of "EndGame" just about right, replayability and the devs keep dishing out content and fixes every month. 

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/11
Posts: 568


4/02/13 4:06:59 PM#8
Originally posted by youngloenoe
PoE seems to get the concept of "EndGame" just about right, replayability and the devs keep dishing out content and fixes every month. 



If devs have to continue to release content every month to keep players interested they have a very shallow mmo.

The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.

The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...


Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 7

4/02/13 4:16:43 PM#9
Originally posted by WellzyC
Originally posted by youngloenoe
PoE seems to get the concept of "EndGame" just about right, replayability and the devs keep dishing out content and fixes every month. 



If devs have to continue to release content every month to keep players interested they have a very shallow mmo.


Maybe you just dont know the game, since you are calling it shallow, and maybe the devs realize that people like new things, and maybe they have a game where they have the luxury of rewarding the players with new stuff every month...



Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/11
Posts: 568


4/02/13 4:43:46 PM#10


If you content locusts need a new flashy scripted event to roll through every 4 weeks, then be my guest. I personaly like a game with a little more depth than that.

The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.

The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...


Advanced Member

Joined: 9/30/05
Posts: 44

4/02/13 5:13:49 PM#11

The issue of endgame is always problematic. To me, repeating the same dungeons/raids/ops whatever you want to call it, for gear is worthless. Bragging rights only matter yf you're showing off something you build/made. Unfortunately crafting, exploring, building is always in the backburner for most mmo's.


I rather take my time exploring, playing an alt (wich is tremendously boring in most mmo's since is just the same content for most of it), building/furnishing your house, playing minigames with friends, participating in fun events. Basically having things to do that doesn't involve braindead repeating of content.


Is just my opinion of course.


Advanced Member

Joined: 11/29/06
Posts: 1

4/02/13 5:20:50 PM#12

The key to endgame is the same as the key to all other things in a MMO.  Fun.  CoH was prosperous because it was fun.  It wasnt too hard, or too easy.  It was just right.  It had that perfect combination of skill, luck, talent and fortitude to make it enjoyable for those who played it.  Fun isnt one of those things that you can create.  It's not like baking cookies, where you can follow a set of instructions and get  it just right every time.  But there is a trend that can be followed.  It's more of a path then it is a destination.



Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 1136

4/02/13 5:22:52 PM#13

Historically, I tend to like themepark games for one main reason: they tell a story and when told well, that story will engage and immerse me in the game world and I will become very invested in my avatar. If the story has a cliffhanger ending, I'll buy the expansion to find out what happens next. I'll roll tons of alts to see how the story varies with different races or classes. But when the story dries up, the game does too.


Today however, I'm enjoying a themepark mmo with a fairly lousy story because it added a sandboxy feature that has become my endgame: Rift Dimensions. It's a 3D version of player-generated storytelling and content, complete with leaderboards for the competitive folk.


I'm keeping an eye on a couple games for the future but for now and probably the rest of this year, it will be difficult for other games to get my attention unless they offer a polished sandbox for me to play in.


Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

4/02/13 5:29:12 PM#14

Asherons Call told a story and a good one at that.

Asherons Call was a sandbox because the game didnt lock you into it.

Asherons Call had levels, but it also had open skill choices so no classes where XP was placed into those skills for an almost infinitely increasing character power.

Asherons Call had an open world where you can go anywhere you wanted.

Its been done already, it can be mainstream easily if a company would just put money into it and BTW, the game is still going today, after some 15 years with people paying a sub.

“I hope we shall its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson


Novice Member

Joined: 8/27/06
Posts: 1

4/02/13 6:01:49 PM#15

i cant stand raids. 

i love sandbox, pvp and roleplay. 

my idea:

skill increase contributes to level milestone, tapering at a soft cap, ending at hard. upon death all skill is wiped to level milestone (wherever skill progression was at point of milestone) death leaves a corpes that you can return to to gain that skill back, death isn't trivial

max level means soft cap is re-instated with no cap to skill. characters could become VERY powerful, and death would take on new meaning.

the players BECOME the boss battles, or leaders, or gods even

This along with sandbox roleplay such as city building, Character customization, player nations, player law (??), open world pvp with player designated front lines / battlefields

oh and close over the shoulder or first person : P  otherwise its too easy

Teiam. I win.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/11/12
Posts: 19

4/02/13 6:05:17 PM#16

The problem I have with most MMO's other than EVE is you CAN'T become a hero if everyone else in the world is also the hero.  There's a certain ammount of shared experience that is good for community building, but eventually it becomes, oh yeah, I did that, and my entire guild, and 75% of people who've ever picked up that game.


Even the most mundane things in EVE can leave you with a feeling that you're doing something unique, but I guess that's entirely based on self motivation, questing is done for yourself, to directly improve or discover or profit, or somebody else but with one of those goals in mind.


Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/10/03
Posts: 171

4/02/13 6:25:58 PM#17

MMO's features shouldnt be mechanics! It should be a digital playground for us to act out on. Thats one of the reasons why games like EVE, L2 & DAOC has such lifespam as its built as a world for us and we decide the politics and events.

Best endgame in my opinion is political PVP warfare that ISNT restricted to some stupid forced faction vs faction.


Novice Member

Joined: 1/23/13
Posts: 45

4/02/13 8:02:04 PM#18

I'm not enough of an expert on "theme park vs. sandbox" to be able to tell you which of the two I prefer, but I liked CoH a lot.  Whatever you'd classify that as, sign me up.  I liked the fact that you could fly, I liked user-created content (despite the fact that I never actually created any myself).  I liked Supergroup bases.  I liked teamups, task forces, trials,  etc.  I liked that you could make your toon look damn near any way you wanted.  I liked the constant new costume pieces and powers.  I liked sidekick/exemplaring.  I liked alignments and the fact that they were mutable.   I never wanted PVP but I liked that the PVP zones in CoH were set up with a "zone game" in mind, where you had to accomplish something while the other side tried to stop you, and I liked that it was more than just capture the flag.  I liked the power origins but wished they had some more relevant effect on the toon's overall play, although I must admit that after 8 years I'm not sure how I would have tried to accomplish that myself.  I never disliked levels, and always kind of expected them.  I REALLY liked the fact that the average CoH player didn't really care what your build was like or if you were "playing it wrong".  Nobody ever gave anyone any real greif for being a "noob" on CoH, or at least I never heard it.  I liked being able to text chat with people while I played. 

So there it ism whatever that is, that's what I liked.   Right here is where I would type the hold torch emote, but I'm pretty sure the above is a more long-winded version of same.

"Well sure, the FrinkiacVII looks impressive - DON'T TOUCH IT - but I predict that within 100 years computers will be TWICE as powerful, ten THOUSAND times larger, and so expensive that only the five richest kings of Europe will own them." -Prof. Frink


Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 2150

4/02/13 8:09:13 PM#19
I'd rather have more of the same stuff we did leveling up with the added bonus of an Alternate Advancement system similar to EverQuest.  Anything other than the same tired old raiding paradigm.


PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd.

Joined: 10/15/10
Posts: 844

4/02/13 8:19:34 PM#20
One word "tools". A detailed robust set of tools for player created content based around territory and resources. Pvp would be a key component for longevity and for all you non pvp people have the toolset robust enough to create content for the pvpers to keep you safe all while you keep their needs supplied with a strong economic model based on item damage/decay.
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