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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » GW 2 is the perfect example of what I hope CU avoids

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59 posts found
  meddyck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1130

 
OP  3/28/13 5:55:18 AM#1

One of the things I most loved about DAOC was RvR character progression. This was done by giving realm points for kills. If you earned enough realm points, you advanced to the next realm level and realm rank and earned realm skill points. You could then use the realm skill points to purchase abilities that made your character more powerful. These included stat bonuses (increased dexterity, strength, etc.) and also active abilities such as Purge (removed all harmful effects including CC), Bunker of Faith (grants your group increased melee damage absorption for a time), Thornweed Field (creates a field with a large radius that pulses damage and snare for a time), and many more.

Such progression was missing in GW 2 at release and was a major thing many players were disappointed in and asked Arenanet to add. So now they finally have. But look at what the abilities they are offering are.

Those are all extremely lame and exclusively oriented at sieging. If you meet a high ranked player in the open field on your low ranked toon, these abilities would make no difference at all to your fight.

GW 2 fails in any number of other ways too:

  • You don't see enemy players names making it impossible to gain an individual reputation in WvW or learn to respect, fear, or hate particular enemies.
  • The 3 servers that are matched up change frequently. If you are losing a matchup, you can just sit out and wait for the next reset and hope you get a more favorable matchup.
  • There is no real point to winning a matchup anyway other than bragging rights.
  • There are a wide variety of bonuses for winning during a matchup but they make no noticeable impact on gameplay and don't motivate anybody.
  • WvW is split into a number of zones and each zone has a fairly low hard cap of players per side relative to the number of players on a server. This means waiting in long queues on the most populated servers.
  • Also the zones aren't seamless. You have to go through a portal to get to the next zone and possibly wait in a queue again.
  • Flipping undefended keeps is rewarding.
  • Every player who tags another player gets equal rewards encouraging mindless AE spamming.
  • There is no direct healing. Everybody gets a self heal. Healing spells are mostly ground targetted.
  • Most of the zerg runs around ungrouped because of the previous 2 points. Why group when you get the same rewards ungrouped spamming AE spells and nobody can heal you anyway?
  • The graphics engine has some major flaws particularly culling which leads to enemy players randomly becoming invisible. This supposedly was fixed in a patch this week.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  MightyPit

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/02
Posts: 88

3/28/13 6:35:02 AM#2

I agree with you in most of the things. Altough the flaws are obviously, I had a lot of fun yesterday evening. We were fighting against two better servers, but we still flip some towers, giving them a decent fight.

The commander philosophy of ArenaNet is quite nice. When the server has a good community, there are not to much commanders on the map.

Further, the maps are quite beautiful. Borderlands share their appearance which I do not like, but since the pairing changes every two weeks, this is only fair for all combatants. There are cliffs, caves, passages trough caves and under water, the towers and fortresses look all different (if you think of actually two maps, borderlands and eternal battleground).

The idea with supply caravans needed for upgrading the towers and fortresses bring a hugh amount of aditional strategy.

There is no /stick or /follow makro, which means, if you want to run in a greater formation, you have to be at your keyboard. No afk-zergs.

There is no need for groups, that is true, but this does not hurt IMO.

Rewards for undefended buildings are ok, as long as you do not circle with your enemy for maxing the rewards. If raiding structures would be unrewarding, you would not need them at all. Key to this would be to make it necessary for the defender to hold keeps. One approach could be, that it is strategic desirable to have the keeps upgraded. In GW2 this is achieved with the waypoints you can upgrade when the keep is some time in you hand. I think it has some other upgrades as prerequisites also.

I would love to see other skills for that wvw progression too, but maybe we get some in the future time.

For me, the wvw warfare in gw2 is a good time sink until camelot unchained arrives ;)

 

MMO's played so far:
UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE
Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen

  Tierless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2096

joie de vivre

3/28/13 8:28:37 AM#3

GW 2 is that girl I like to hang out with once in a while because she is pretty cool, but we just never connect enough to form a serious relationship. We have some fun, but it's never amazing.

"You don't see enemy players names making it impossible to gain an individual reputation in WvW or learn to respect, fear, or hate particular enemies."

The above took the life out of WVWVW for me. It's like fighting an army of NPCs. I LOVE targeting certain players, especially if they have killed me a few times. Finding a nameless army in an MMO is simple less interesting.

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  kaltahn

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/10
Posts: 31

Spoiler: He was dead the whole time.

3/28/13 8:46:14 AM#4
Been getting a kick outta the WvWvW in GW2 - it's like going on a date with the wingman; it's not who you wanted to go out with, but heck... it's a date.
  Ice-Queen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2430

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

3/28/13 8:50:03 AM#5
My problem with GW2 WvsWvsW was it wasn't an open RvR area. It was only a set number of people let in at a time, you have to sit in a que just to go into a RvR area. Lamest RvR ever. RvR should be in an open world where an unlimited amount of people can enter, and it should be a huge area so you have people all over the place.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  saurus123

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 505

3/28/13 8:56:51 AM#6

and whats wrong with skills that gw2 offers?

they said they will be adding new skills and other stuff atm these are just passive skills

and no they are not lame if you look closely at balista or cannons you will see these give you special attacks and other nice things like multi shot with balista

 

do i want overpowered skills like daoc have?

no thanks, anet did good job here

  Tyrsis

Novice Member

Joined: 5/28/10
Posts: 13

3/28/13 8:59:41 AM#7
I havent played GW2 but I agree with the draw of - and need for something comprable to Realm points, realm ranks and awards that enhance your character. Additionally, knowing who you are fighting is of the upmost importance. Everybody wants to make a name for themselves in the game, not on forums.
  Thane

Elite Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1802

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

3/28/13 9:02:13 AM#8
Originally posted by meddyck

(...)

  • You don't see enemy players names making it impossible to gain an individual reputation in WvW or learn to respect, fear, or hate particular enemies.

you know daoc worked EXACTLY the same way? namewise?

sure you could build a reputation based on that. but not with a ever changing battlefield.

 

the prob ain't no names, but no persistance

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

3/28/13 9:02:23 AM#9
Ya, one of the principles of gw2 prevents them from overpowering players by just throwing raw power at them. The idea is that with time you are better at the game thus player skill dictates the winners. I understand why some don't like it, but I believe its good there a different games for different folks.


  MightyPit

Novice Member

Joined: 11/21/02
Posts: 88

3/28/13 9:25:55 AM#10

If I remember right, you saw the name of your enemy only in the killspam. Of course, if you frequently meet the same players, you learn to recognize them by seeing.

I agree that the missing persistence make the wvw experience stale, combined with the missing herald where you could see which guild claims which keep. For a game which has "guild" in the name, there is surprising less guild-love in it.

However, you CAN have some epic battles in gw2, tear down some walls and gates and have some greate moments of togetherness, although I would not call it realm pride.

MMO's played so far:
UO,EQ,DAOC,EQ2,GW,ROM,WOW,WAR,AOC,LOTRO,RIFT,TSW,GW2,POE
Looking forward to: Camelot Unchained, Star Citizen

  Mortify

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 96

3/28/13 9:28:21 AM#11
Originally posted by Thane
Originally posted by meddyck

(...)

  • You don't see enemy players names making it impossible to gain an individual reputation in WvW or learn to respect, fear, or hate particular enemies.

you know daoc worked EXACTLY the same way? namewise?

sure you could build a reputation based on that. but not with a ever changing battlefield.

 

That's not true, in DAoC you DID see enemy player names.

Methos, Armsman, EU Excalibur
Jager, Infiltrator, EU Excalibur
Phos, Cleric, EU Excalibur
Mortify, Sorcerer, EU Excalibur

  Tyrsis

Novice Member

Joined: 5/28/10
Posts: 13

3/28/13 9:34:55 AM#12
Originally posted by Mortify
Originally posted by Thane
Originally posted by meddyck

(...)

  • You don't see enemy players names making it impossible to gain an individual reputation in WvW or learn to respect, fear, or hate particular enemies.

you know daoc worked EXACTLY the same way? namewise?

sure you could build a reputation based on that. but not with a ever changing battlefield.

 

That's not true, in DAoC you DID see enemy player names.

 

Yep you did see names on-target and through deathspam - and that was a huge factor in RvR.

 

That, in combination with someone's guild emblem or gear you could pick them out of a crowd. Fighting nameless people is absolutely absurd.

  rodingo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1638

3/28/13 9:39:54 AM#13
Originally posted by Thane
Originally posted by meddyck

(...)

  • You don't see enemy players names making it impossible to gain an individual reputation in WvW or learn to respect, fear, or hate particular enemies.

you know daoc worked EXACTLY the same way? namewise?

sure you could build a reputation based on that. but not with a ever changing battlefield.

 

the prob ain't no names, but no persistance

That must be a DAOC thing.  I didn't play DAOC, but I did start my PVP'ing in Neocron which only came out a year after DAOC.  Since then I have been a PVPer in almost all of the MMOs I have played and I have never come across a player that had any type of reputation that I knew of.  Or at least I didn't care.  In PVP if I see a player and attack they either die or I do.  I never even look at their name becuase frankly it doesn't matter.  All players die just the same in PVP.   Well except in SWG when the first few "Jedi" started showing up in our fights.  That doesn't mean that there weren't players with egos who thought they were good.   You know, the ones that charge solo into a group of enemy players to only get destroyed before you can fire off your second skill at them.

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  drakon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 114

3/28/13 9:45:11 AM#14

Truste me, name recognition matters.  In the early days of DAoC on Palomides there was a cleric named Tahalien (or something close) that topped most of the RvR stats on the Herald by a good margin.  If someone spotted him anywhere the call would go out and people would go out of their way just to try to kill him.  Fun times. 

 

Back on topic, I agree.  WvW is something I hope CU avoids.  I started losing interest in the game about Jan but kept playing waiting for this epic WvW update.  Well, I gotta say I'm disappointed.  WvW feels more like Zerg vs Zerg in a WoW battleground than it does RvR. 

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

3/28/13 9:56:00 AM#15
Originally posted by drakon3

Truste me, name recognition matters.  In the early days of DAoC on Palomides there was a cleric named Tahalien (or something close) that topped most of the RvR stats on the Herald by a good margin.  If someone spotted him anywhere the call would go out and people would go out of their way just to try to kill him.  Fun times. 

 

Back on topic, I agree.  WvW is something I hope CU avoids.  I started losing interest in the game about Jan but kept playing waiting for this epic WvW update.  Well, I gotta say I'm disappointed.  WvW feels more like Zerg vs Zerg in a WoW battleground than it does RvR. 

That is the point - this is not a gang up on people type of PvP.

 

All the different types of PvP have poistives and negatives - it is to be expected. If you don't like the design - don't play it.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Killsmallchi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/26/08
Posts: 279

Don't be simple

3/28/13 9:56:10 AM#16
Originally posted by meddyck

One of the things I most loved about DAOC was RvR character progression. This was done by giving realm points for kills. If you earned enough realm points, you advanced to the next realm level and realm rank and earned realm skill points. You could then use the realm skill points to purchase abilities that made your character more powerful. These included stat bonuses (increased dexterity, strength, etc.) and also active abilities such as Purge (removed all harmful effects including CC), Bunker of Faith (grants your group increased melee damage absorption for a time), Thornweed Field (creates a field with a large radius that pulses damage and snare for a time), and many more.

Such progression was missing in GW 2 at release and was a major thing many players were disappointed in and asked Arenanet to add. So now they finally have. But look at what the abilities they are offering are.

Those are all extremely lame and exclusively oriented at sieging. If you meet a high ranked player in the open field on your low ranked toon, these abilities would make no difference at all to your fight.

GW 2 fails in any number of other ways too:

  • You don't see enemy players names making it impossible to gain an individual reputation in WvW or learn to respect, fear, or hate particular enemies.
  • The 3 servers that are matched up change frequently. If you are losing a matchup, you can just sit out and wait for the next reset and hope you get a more favorable matchup.
  • There is no real point to winning a matchup anyway other than bragging rights.
  • There are a wide variety of bonuses for winning during a matchup but they make no noticeable impact on gameplay and don't motivate anybody.
  • WvW is split into a number of zones and each zone has a fairly low hard cap of players per side relative to the number of players on a server. This means waiting in long queues on the most populated servers.
  • Also the zones aren't seamless. You have to go through a portal to get to the next zone and possibly wait in a queue again.
  • Flipping undefended keeps is rewarding.
  • Every player who tags another player gets equal rewards encouraging mindless AE spamming.
  • There is no direct healing. Everybody gets a self heal. Healing spells are mostly ground targetted.
  • Most of the zerg runs around ungrouped because of the previous 2 points. Why group when you get the same rewards ungrouped spamming AE spells and nobody can heal you anyway?
  • The graphics engine has some major flaws particularly culling which leads to enemy players randomly becoming invisible. This supposedly was fixed in a patch this week.

"If you meet a high ranked player in the open field on your low ranked toon, these abilities would make no difference at all to your fight."

This is the point. GW2 made it so it was even across the board. I hate when someone with no skills wins cause they have better armor or abilities. Get good at the game and this will not anger you. If you play alot, it means you are a anti-social, not that you should win every fight. 

I hope CU is smart enough to realize that GW2 has done alot of good, it just missed some marks that makes it seem cheap. If CU can make it seem more real, more persistent, with a system like GW2 this game will do fine.

If you are bad at a game and expect to be 1 hitting everyone because you waste the most time in it, I would suggest taking up something other than videogames.

  Tyrsis

Novice Member

Joined: 5/28/10
Posts: 13

3/28/13 10:06:28 AM#17
Originally posted by Killsmallchi
Originally posted by meddyck

One of the things I most loved about DAOC was RvR character progression. This was done by giving realm points for kills. If you earned enough realm points, you advanced to the next realm level and realm rank and earned realm skill points. You could then use the realm skill points to purchase abilities that made your character more powerful. These included stat bonuses (increased dexterity, strength, etc.) and also active abilities such as Purge (removed all harmful effects including CC), Bunker of Faith (grants your group increased melee damage absorption for a time), Thornweed Field (creates a field with a large radius that pulses damage and snare for a time), and many more.

Such progression was missing in GW 2 at release and was a major thing many players were disappointed in and asked Arenanet to add. So now they finally have. But look at what the abilities they are offering are.

Those are all extremely lame and exclusively oriented at sieging. If you meet a high ranked player in the open field on your low ranked toon, these abilities would make no difference at all to your fight.

GW 2 fails in any number of other ways too:

  • You don't see enemy players names making it impossible to gain an individual reputation in WvW or learn to respect, fear, or hate particular enemies.
  • The 3 servers that are matched up change frequently. If you are losing a matchup, you can just sit out and wait for the next reset and hope you get a more favorable matchup.
  • There is no real point to winning a matchup anyway other than bragging rights.
  • There are a wide variety of bonuses for winning during a matchup but they make no noticeable impact on gameplay and don't motivate anybody.
  • WvW is split into a number of zones and each zone has a fairly low hard cap of players per side relative to the number of players on a server. This means waiting in long queues on the most populated servers.
  • Also the zones aren't seamless. You have to go through a portal to get to the next zone and possibly wait in a queue again.
  • Flipping undefended keeps is rewarding.
  • Every player who tags another player gets equal rewards encouraging mindless AE spamming.
  • There is no direct healing. Everybody gets a self heal. Healing spells are mostly ground targetted.
  • Most of the zerg runs around ungrouped because of the previous 2 points. Why group when you get the same rewards ungrouped spamming AE spells and nobody can heal you anyway?
  • The graphics engine has some major flaws particularly culling which leads to enemy players randomly becoming invisible. This supposedly was fixed in a patch this week.

"If you meet a high ranked player in the open field on your low ranked toon, these abilities would make no difference at all to your fight."

This is the point. GW2 made it so it was even across the board. I hate when someone with no skills wins cause they have better armor or abilities. Get good at the game and this will not anger you. If you play alot, it means you are a anti-social, not that you should win every fight. 

I hope CU is smart enough to realize that GW2 has done alot of good, it just missed some marks that makes it seem cheap. If CU can make it seem more real, more persistent, with a system like GW2 this game will do fine.

If you are bad at a game and expect to be 1 hitting everyone because you waste the most time in it, I would suggest taking up something other than videogames.

 

With realm ranks it wasn't necessarily the abilities that made you better in RvR. A RR4 could beat an RR11  - its just a matter of who is behind the keyboard.

 

In DAoC everyone starts off at RR1. The amount of time you played doesn't necessarily mean you will become a higher rank than someone else faster. A skilled player could accumulate 50k realm points in a few hours whereas it would take a less skilled player a few days to get that.

 

DAoC wasn't like other games where you could spend 100 hours getting the best gear or buying a high realm rank character and suddenly be awesome. If you didn't know how to play you were useless. I think the realm point, realm rank and RvR abilities/passives was the best PvP system ever made for a game.

 

There's really no comparison to other games. 

  zipzap

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/03/06
Posts: 124

3/28/13 10:18:22 AM#18

Those are all extremely lame and exclusively oriented at sieging. If you meet a high ranked player in the open field on your low ranked toon, these abilities would make no difference at all to your fight.

i think this is good.... games should be about skill and not about how can spend the most time grinding stuff. 

also if these skills would favor PvP then the server with the highest amount of people would be get them first which would give  them an even higher advantage.

but thats just my opinion

 

pvp should always be about skill and not time

  meddyck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1130

 
OP  3/28/13 10:23:02 AM#19
Originally posted by Killsmallchi

"If you meet a high ranked player in the open field on your low ranked toon, these abilities would make no difference at all to your fight."

This is the point. GW2 made it so it was even across the board. I hate when someone with no skills wins cause they have better armor or abilities. Get good at the game and this will not anger you. If you play alot, it means you are a anti-social, not that you should win every fight.

And that was my point. That kind of system is not what I (and I think many other players) want. There's no PvE and only crafted gear in CU. If the RvR ability system doesn't give you more power (and not just at sieging) the higher ranked you get, then there will be no progression at all in CU. That would make it another boring keep-centric RvR system with no longevity. That's certainly not the kind of game I'm donating to Kickstarter for.

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  morfidon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/13
Posts: 245

3/28/13 10:25:37 AM#20
Originally posted by zipzap

Those are all extremely lame and exclusively oriented at sieging. If you meet a high ranked player in the open field on your low ranked toon, these abilities would make no difference at all to your fight.

i think this is good.... games should be about skill and not about how can spend the most time grinding stuff. 

also if these skills would favor PvP then the server with the highest amount of people would be get them first which would give  them an even higher advantage.

but thats just my opinion

 

pvp should always be about skill and not time

Well...

Unerpopulated realms could farm populated realms in daoc and have tons of more rps so your statement is not true.

There must be something that makes you stronger every day otherwise you don't have any goal to play. 

I loved playing my alts in daoc even tho I fought vs high RR guys. There was difference... but it wasn't so big that it didn't allow me to compete. I also enjoyed playing my high RR wizard with the spec that nobody chose but me.

PvP in daoc requires the skill and in the same time you always know that you make your character each day better.

 

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