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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Dispelling the 'easy' myth

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362 posts found
  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/21/13 8:50:22 PM#341

I played Age fo Empires II (HD) today on Hard mode..  & Hardest mode.  But like so many other games, these are not a MMORPGs.

If a game has a "hard mode" ,etc..  then it is an arcade game & hardly worth discussing on a MMORPG forum, right?  Becuase we all know "easy" isn't a myth, it is the rule.

" Easy" is used to harbor all the adolecent minds..  until they grow up mentally and wish for more of a challenge. If a game is 90% easy, but has 10% of the content can be played at the hardest level possible..  still doesn't make the game easy. Just makes those instances easy/hard..

 

If a game has a difficulty setting, then it is an Arcade game, not a MMORPG.

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  socalsk8tr

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/18/10
Posts: 65

4/23/13 4:18:36 AM#342
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by socalsk8tr

Kinda have to dissagree with it being a myth or whatever because when I don't have to step back and think at all anymore or even attempt to strategize during some encounter its become to easy. Lets face theres alot of hand holding in MMO now aday's and tons of tools that help to do just that. Take a DPS meter addon for instance lets just say this thing was never ever invented ever and never will be for gaming. How well do you think alot of people would do without these that used them so furvently to find out the best way to play any one specific character. Which were the best skills to have/use what was the best rotation of those skills and so on and so fourth. Its things like this for me that have ruined most MMO's for me because all the guess work of actual trial and error is taken out of the equation. You could say well thats just something thats time consuming and you could still end up with the same build without it which is true but it takes all the experience you gain out of learning that on a personal level. 

 

Its just some what gotten to a point in every MMO i play I can pretty much guess what to expect I never really have to put any thought into it its all already done. Hell even in firefall the game I've currently been taking for a test drive they tell you right on the gun what its dps is. In all honesty I just want to be challenged I want the chance of their being a failure (no not due to some enrage timer that means the boss will AoE one shot everyone within 2 minutes if you don't kill it) I mean make players actually have to think about the fight. Make the bosses have a weak point that does extra damage or is the only place the boss takes damage. 

 

They need to stop rehashing out all these same stagnant types of encounters and invent something new. Its gotten old and maybe my perspective on gaming has as well but I had a lot more fun playing old games I died in constantly cause I couldn't figure out something or would get stuck in because I couldn't find the right path or figure out some sort of puzzle to progress further. It just seems like the more mmos I try and the newer they are I keep finding myself just going through the cycles of rinse repeat to every encounter any more with minor differences. One boss goes immune spawns adds at 80% hp one boss throws up a reflective buff at 75% hp one boss spawns adds that cast physical and magical defensive debuffs so on and so fourth and the list goes on and on. Most people that have played a good amount of Content in Numerous MMOs will know what I mean its gotten predictable very predictable and its been a good long while since someone has been brave enough to actually try something fairly innovative from what I've seen.

Long rant ...

Show us your hard mode raids achievement. I doubt you have it. Better yet, you are so l33t, where is your world first raid kill?

This topic is not about "stagnant types" of encounters. If you don't like them, or find them boring .. fine. Don't complain they are easy unless you can do them all, which i doubt. In fact, i doubt you can do them all even if you watch all the youtube strategy video.

 

Ok well let me reiterate what I mean by being too easy and having too much hand holding in gaming nowadays next time you and you raiding buddies are going to do some hard mode raid in WoW try it this way with some new content or raid they add. Remove all the Numbers from your UI your hp amount mana anything that indicates a buff or debuff icon and cool down for your skills or whatever as well as any addons like dps meters and the like. Also pull that Tab button off your keyboard and don't you a voice chat program. Don't watch any videos of the fight either to see how to do it go in there fresh without ever having seen one piece of the new raid. This will be the hardest that raid will ever get in your time in trying it the very first time you run through it thats it it can only get easier from here.

 

Basically still all you'll have to do is figure out the timing of that encounter thats all its gonna boil down to no matter what difficulty mode you set it on. I can figure out within one fight of pretty much any boss in most current MMO's whats gonna happen within that first enounter. I could tell you at 25% hp he's gonna go into a frenzie mode making him hit (insert random % here) harder and taking (random %) less damage. He'll cast (random skill) every 5 physical attacks and so on and so fourth. 

 

For me what I mean by too easy is its far to easy to break down especially with all the extra bells and whistles in MMOs nowadays. And as others have said in most cases alls they do is give a stat buff to the boss gimping your own character stats which just means if theres higher stat gear available its a time sink to just grind up to that gear it doesn't make the encounter more difficult. Frankly I've never played WoW never will either especially with that communities mentality and how they view themselves as well as other gamers especially with the l33t nonsence you keep referring to bashing others that have valid arguements about games being too easy. 

 

The fact is easy or hard is subjective to each individual and for games like WoW where its all statistically based upon stats of your equipment being the main factor in most encounters means to me "time sink" its just a grind till I can have better stats that make the encounter easier. I mean that is why you run that difficulty correct? for better stated equipment to make it easier as well as be ready for whatever new raid that requires you to have higher stats to complete so you can get that even higher stated peices of equipment?

 

For me thats just a numbers game and also a bit of timing is required but as I said remove all those other hand holding tools on the next bit of new content and try the raid on normal mode and see how well you fair through it. I'll bet you don't just roll through and face tank it on a normal setting without all that stuff to hold your hand on the way through it.

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

4/23/13 4:54:40 AM#343

Master on Skyrim is not that hard its almost easy mode.

Now you have legendary mode for Skyrim and that give alot more challenge many mobs now one shot me if im not carefull but still playable, i just have to be more carefull use surroundings more, take cover behind rocks/trees, heal up more offen and defences, kite alot ext.

Nightmare lvl on DAO also rather easy.

Two Worlds hardmode was also a challenge and not easy at all.

I remembered when they released for first time in Asheron's call2 the weeping bloodstones and waraths before hero patch so many complained was almost impoisble to kill mobs so hard and difficult, but i loved it it was one of few mmo's ive experienced real hard challenges Boots dungeon run at time was famous for it so hard to run that dungeon and kill boss.

But for some maybe master or nightmare on those game hard and some easy it all depends on what player you are and how much experience you have, are you young and quickly with keyboard mouse or old and slow hehe.

Im old game who started at launch Darkfall1 i just adepted for my age by playing more carefull amd pay alot attetion to my surroundings.

The Witcher 2 had some real challenge after hardmode when you played darkmode free that was not easy at all for me at least.

Hand hold  in games and ezmode in most mmo's i hate specially with themeparks BAH:(

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

 
OP  4/23/13 12:26:07 PM#344
Originally posted by socalsk8tr

 

Ok well let me reiterate what I mean by being too easy and having too much hand holding in gaming nowadays next time you and you raiding buddies are going to do some hard mode raid in WoW try it this way with some new content or raid they add. Remove all the Numbers from your UI your hp amount mana anything that indicates a buff or debuff icon and cool down for your skills or whatever as well as any addons like dps meters and the like. Also pull that Tab button off your keyboard and don't you a voice chat program. Don't watch any videos of the fight either to see how to do it go in there fresh without ever having seen one piece of the new raid. This will be the hardest that raid will ever get in your time in trying it the very first time you run through it thats it it can only get easier from here.

Again, show us your hard mode acheivement.

Even WITHOUT all these stuff you talk about (getting rid of numbers, no voice chat ...), i highly doubt you can beat any of this.

The point is this .. i am not disagreeing that what you say can make it harder. The point is that it is ALREADY hard enough. Go watch the youtube video. Can you duplicate what is done in them? Give us some proof.

 

  Fdzzaigl

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/09
Posts: 2159

4/23/13 12:37:30 PM#345

It's probably not a good idea  to compare things with single player games. I think many people who go at a single player game just pick the difficulty setting that is recommended to them (or don't bother picking one at all), play the game and move on to another game entirely, without replaying it on a higher setting.

I personally did the same thing anyhow, until I started playing Dragon Age / Mass Effect on the highest difficulty. Since then I usually start at a higher difficulty, which has enriched my gaming experience considerably (as things last you much longer, and epic fights are truly epic).

In the case of MMO's, I most certainly think that they do suffer from being "too easy". But even more than that, I think devs and players alike suffer from the illusion that an MMO needs to be easy (in terms of gameplay), or otherwise people will give up fast.

In my opinion, there are significant niches out there for players who yearn for a tougher game, or even just for players who aren't very good, but would still try to see how far they'd get in in a tough game. The success of something like DayZ partly proves that for me.

Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

 
OP  4/23/13 12:42:16 PM#346
Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

It's probably not a good idea  to compare things with single player games. I think many people who go at a single player game just pick the difficulty setting that is recommended to them (or don't bother picking one at all), play the game and move on to another game entirely, without replaying it on a higher setting.

True. I do play on much more challenging option in D3 .. but in games like Bioshock, i go for "casual" because i want to see the story fast, and move on.

In the case of MMO's, I most certainly think that they do suffer from being "too easy". But even more than that, I think devs and players alike suffer from the illusion that an MMO needs to be easy (in terms of gameplay), or otherwise people will give up fast.

The fact that the MMO with the most sub has easy leveling shows that it is not an illusion.

In my opinion, there are significant niches out there for players who yearn for a tougher game, or even just for players who aren't very good, but would still try to see how far they'd get in in a tough game. The success of something like DayZ partly proves that for me.

But DayZ is missing all the other players. Just put in an option. Diablo3 sold 12M ... and many probably play the easymode doing MP0. However, there are also a lot (just check diabloprogress), who play hardcore mode on high MP.

 

 

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/23/13 12:57:46 PM#347

Sorry to bust the crusader's bubble... but if a game has a "hard mode"... the it also has an "easy mode"..

 

 

A game that offers a choice, is not a hard game...     a super-easy game, that has a few instances that one can choose "hard" =  funny..   that is why EQ got "funny" with Lost Dungeons of Norrath. Because that is when SOE started to cater to little boys and their fragile egoes.

Same newbies who bought EQ character's for thousands of dollars, then rage-quite when they couldn't compete with the older EQ players. So they got on the forums and wanted an easier game, so their ego was protected more... due to their own inadaquacies.

 

 

"Easy mode" is for people who are unable to challenge themselves.

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4912

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/23/13 1:02:22 PM#348

IMO a game that offers a choice between easy and hard is just as easy as it is hard.  It's your choice.

That being said some games that have hard mode are still easy.

Been playing skyrim again recently on legendary.  It's still pretty dang easy. 

Playing on easy mode has nothing do with being "unable" to challenge themselves.  It depends on why they are playing.

Sometimes I'm in a mood for a real fight, a challenge.  Other times I just want to relax and mine for awhile. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

 
OP  4/23/13 1:27:31 PM#349
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

IMO a game that offers a choice between easy and hard is just as easy as it is hard.  It's your choice.

That being said some games that have hard mode are still easy.

Been playing skyrim again recently on legendary.  It's still pretty dang easy. 

Playing on easy mode has nothing do with being "unable" to challenge themselves.  It depends on why they are playing.

Sometimes I'm in a mood for a real fight, a challenge.  Other times I just want to relax and mine for awhile. 

That is also the point of having options. Moods change. Games should be both easy and hard.

 

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/24/13 3:25:56 AM#350
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

IMO a game that offers a choice between easy and hard is just as easy as it is hard.  It's your choice.

That being said some games that have hard mode are still easy.

Been playing skyrim again recently on legendary.  It's still pretty dang easy. 

Playing on easy mode has nothing do with being "unable" to challenge themselves.  It depends on why they are playing.

Sometimes I'm in a mood for a real fight, a challenge.  Other times I just want to relax and mine for awhile. 

That is also the point of having options. Moods change. Games should be both easy and hard.

 

 

As in plural..   so there should be both easy & hard games.  (Not just easy games w/hard mode..)

 

 

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  fantasyfreak112

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/13
Posts: 523

4/24/13 3:33:11 AM#351

Agree with many of the posters. Just because you can set a game to a gimmickly obscene hardmode that didn't even get tested by the devs doesn't mean the game itself is hard.

I don't consider EQ Classic hard, most do because of the harsh death penalties and obscenely long level grinds. None of that requires brain cells to fire, semi intelligent AI does. Requiring constantly reactive combat does, etc.

  Lovely_Laly

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 736

game is also real

4/24/13 6:26:29 AM#352

to me EASY is when you are:

- maxed lvl at low zone,
- maxed CS gear,
- play this game for X years and done and re-done all hard stuff X time,
- you are and epic gamer who found just one more clone of X game.

to me HARD is when:

- you are not well equipped,
- you are new to this game / any game,
- you use a hard mod / new to raid


after we have *short* and *long* IMO, like 10 min to kill boss is it hard or just long? and what about 30 min?

other way all is individual, so if you feel like all is too easy for you, may be try something else instate?

try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

 
OP  4/24/13 11:55:58 AM#353
Originally posted by Lovely_Laly


after we have *short* and *long* IMO, like 10 min to kill boss is it hard or just long? and what about 30 min?

other way all is individual, so if you feel like all is too easy for you, may be try something else instate?

Time does not matter. It is the chance of success. If it takes 30 min but there is no chance of failure, then it is not hard. However, even if it just take 20 sec, if you fail a lot, and any mistake can cost a wipe, then it is hard.

Best example is a Diablo 3 elite fight (on high MP). With the "right" affix, it can kill you in 5 seconds. It is much harder than many of the WOW .. much longer .. but infinitely easier fights.

And yes, it is all individual, thus a difficulty option like the MP levels in D3 is good design.

  danwest58

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/09
Posts: 597

4/24/13 12:06:01 PM#354
Originally posted by BadSpock

I've found a lot of people who say MMOs are too "easy" are 10+ year veterans who, after this amout of time, should damn well be quite skilled at playing them.

If it is still "hard" after 10 years, you're doing it wrong...

 

I couldn't agree more.  UO back in 1998 was hard, today MMOs are not after playing for so long.  Yea they could have 1 machince wipe boss but what fun would that be? 

  Xiaoki

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2512

4/24/13 12:35:25 PM#355


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Lovely_Laly after we have *short* and *long* IMO, like 10 min to kill boss is it hard or just long? and what about 30 min? other way all is individual, so if you feel like all is too easy for you, may be try something else instate?
Time does not matter. It is the chance of success. If it takes 30 min but there is no chance of failure, then it is not hard. However, even if it just take 20 sec, if you fail a lot, and any mistake can cost a wipe, then it is hard.

Best example is a Diablo 3 elite fight (on high MP). With the "right" affix, it can kill you in 5 seconds. It is much harder than many of the WOW .. much longer .. but infinitely easier fights.

And yes, it is all individual, thus a difficulty option like the MP levels in D3 is good design.



Your Diablo 3 example isnt hard, its frustrating.


Why not just have enemies that can 1 shot kill you in 2 seconds from 100 yards away if thats your idea of difficulty.


Difficulty should come in the form of challenging fight mechanics. Difficulty from things like high damage, AoEs and high health are artificial and lazy.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

 
OP  4/24/13 1:37:30 PM#356
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Lovely_Laly after we have *short* and *long* IMO, like 10 min to kill boss is it hard or just long? and what about 30 min? other way all is individual, so if you feel like all is too easy for you, may be try something else instate?
Time does not matter. It is the chance of success. If it takes 30 min but there is no chance of failure, then it is not hard. However, even if it just take 20 sec, if you fail a lot, and any mistake can cost a wipe, then it is hard.

 

Best example is a Diablo 3 elite fight (on high MP). With the "right" affix, it can kill you in 5 seconds. It is much harder than many of the WOW .. much longer .. but infinitely easier fights.

And yes, it is all individual, thus a difficulty option like the MP levels in D3 is good design.



Your Diablo 3 example isnt hard, its frustrating.

 


Why not just have enemies that can 1 shot kill you in 2 seconds from 100 yards away if thats your idea of difficulty.


Difficulty should come in the form of challenging fight mechanics. Difficulty from things like high damage, AoEs and high health are artificial and lazy.

 

You apparently have not played the game. The difficulty is not in numbers, but flight mechanics.

The SAME MP level, an elite pack is easy if i can just stand and dps. However, if it put down fire/acid on group, put out arcane sentries, then vortex me (suck me in), and immobalize me, or wall me in, then i die.

The same elite that does the same damage is hard if they roll the "right" random abilities.

Now if that is not fight mechanics, what is?

 

  Vigiliance

Novice Member

Joined: 3/24/11
Posts: 209

4/24/13 5:11:27 PM#357
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Lovely_Laly after we have *short* and *long* IMO, like 10 min to kill boss is it hard or just long? and what about 30 min? other way all is individual, so if you feel like all is too easy for you, may be try something else instate?
Time does not matter. It is the chance of success. If it takes 30 min but there is no chance of failure, then it is not hard. However, even if it just take 20 sec, if you fail a lot, and any mistake can cost a wipe, then it is hard.

 

Best example is a Diablo 3 elite fight (on high MP). With the "right" affix, it can kill you in 5 seconds. It is much harder than many of the WOW .. much longer .. but infinitely easier fights.

And yes, it is all individual, thus a difficulty option like the MP levels in D3 is good design.

 



Your Diablo 3 example isnt hard, its frustrating.

 


Why not just have enemies that can 1 shot kill you in 2 seconds from 100 yards away if thats your idea of difficulty.


Difficulty should come in the form of challenging fight mechanics. Difficulty from things like high damage, AoEs and high health are artificial and lazy.

 

 

Your presenting a false choice.

 

Something can be frustrating and hard, or hard and frustrating. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

 

Your playing semantics, the words really do mean the same thing in this context.

 

You repeatedly lose to any encounter due to a variety of adversities and you then become frustrated as a response. It doesn't stop being hard just because your frustrated, you may think its bad design because your having difficulty completing the encounter. However games like diablo III have the foresight to let the playerbase have some control of the difficulty of the encounters they will face. However like any good themepark game, it has plenty of elements that the developers still don't let the players control. For example like what affixes will be on the mobs.

 

 

  Xiaoki

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2512

4/25/13 11:16:23 PM#358


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Xiaoki  

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Lovely_Laly after we have *short* and *long* IMO, like 10 min to kill boss is it hard or just long? and what about 30 min? other way all is individual, so if you feel like all is too easy for you, may be try something else instate?
Time does not matter. It is the chance of success. If it takes 30 min but there is no chance of failure, then it is not hard. However, even if it just take 20 sec, if you fail a lot, and any mistake can cost a wipe, then it is hard.   Best example is a Diablo 3 elite fight (on high MP). With the "right" affix, it can kill you in 5 seconds. It is much harder than many of the WOW .. much longer .. but infinitely easier fights. And yes, it is all individual, thus a difficulty option like the MP levels in D3 is good design.
Your Diablo 3 example isnt hard, its frustrating.   Why not just have enemies that can 1 shot kill you in 2 seconds from 100 yards away if thats your idea of difficulty. Difficulty should come in the form of challenging fight mechanics. Difficulty from things like high damage, AoEs and high health are artificial and lazy.  
You apparently have not played the game. The difficulty is not in numbers, but flight mechanics.

The SAME MP level, an elite pack is easy if i can just stand and dps. However, if it put down fire/acid on group, put out arcane sentries, then vortex me (suck me in), and immobalize me, or wall me in, then i die.

The same elite that does the same damage is hard if they roll the "right" random abilities.

Now if that is not fight mechanics, what is?

 



Yeah, its a perfect example of fight mechanics ....very BAD fight mechanics.


Good fight mechanics would give skilled players several different ways to either avoid or survive any scenario, however in Diablo 3 you get these "Death Touch" situations where there is little to nothing that you can do.


I did play Diablo 3 but I stopped playing because these kind of situations happened more often than they should have.


If Im going to play a game where RNG decides whether a I win or lose I can just flip a quarter instead and that doesnt cost $60.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20515

 
OP  4/26/13 12:19:52 PM#359
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Xiaoki  

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Lovely_Laly after we have *short* and *long* IMO, like 10 min to kill boss is it hard or just long? and what about 30 min? other way all is individual, so if you feel like all is too easy for you, may be try something else instate?
Time does not matter. It is the chance of success. If it takes 30 min but there is no chance of failure, then it is not hard. However, even if it just take 20 sec, if you fail a lot, and any mistake can cost a wipe, then it is hard.   Best example is a Diablo 3 elite fight (on high MP). With the "right" affix, it can kill you in 5 seconds. It is much harder than many of the WOW .. much longer .. but infinitely easier fights. And yes, it is all individual, thus a difficulty option like the MP levels in D3 is good design.
Your Diablo 3 example isnt hard, its frustrating.   Why not just have enemies that can 1 shot kill you in 2 seconds from 100 yards away if thats your idea of difficulty. Difficulty should come in the form of challenging fight mechanics. Difficulty from things like high damage, AoEs and high health are artificial and lazy.  
You apparently have not played the game. The difficulty is not in numbers, but flight mechanics.

 

The SAME MP level, an elite pack is easy if i can just stand and dps. However, if it put down fire/acid on group, put out arcane sentries, then vortex me (suck me in), and immobalize me, or wall me in, then i die.

The same elite that does the same damage is hard if they roll the "right" random abilities.

Now if that is not fight mechanics, what is?

 



Yeah, its a perfect example of fight mechanics ....very BAD fight mechanics.

 


Good fight mechanics would give skilled players several different ways to either avoid or survive any scenario, however in Diablo 3 you get these "Death Touch" situations where there is little to nothing that you can do.


I did play Diablo 3 but I stopped playing because these kind of situations happened more often than they should have.


If Im going to play a game where RNG decides whether a I win or lose I can just flip a quarter instead and that doesnt cost $60.

Now you change your position .. so you agree they are mechanics based challenges?

And "bad"? There *are* several different ways to either avoid or survive .. just that you have to be good to do it. Apparently you know little about the game.

For example, vortex can be defeated by either standing in a doorway to prevent the mob from pulling you.

fire on the ground .. you can move out of.

and plenty of other examples. If you think D3 is just about RNG, then you are just a bad player. In fact, go watch youtube on how good players defeat those abilities.

  Daxx_Attack

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/13
Posts: 3

4/26/13 5:41:30 PM#360
Originally posted by Rusque

Elitists want one type of difficulty, and that is one of time. If everything takes a long time, they are happy. Because time is something they have that many others don't and they want to feel special because of it.

You summed that up really well, Rusque. Time spent does not equal skill if in order to get there, you just do the same thing over and over until you reach some sort of arbitrary point known as "end game".

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