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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Dispelling the 'easy' myth

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362 posts found
  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4746

4/05/13 3:37:45 AM#241

We have discussed this many times before, players always take the easy route. If you had differant difficulty levels in a MMO it would not work. How do you explain to your guildmates that you are going to be level 25 when they have got to 50? You could have servers with differant levels of difficulty, but I would not expect a company to go to such expense.

We need MMO's to be harder, the question is how much harder? If players only took on average 10% longer to reach max level that would be a harder game. The problem is do MMO companies want to risk their game by making it harder? No they don't, they make them as easy as they can, this is now seen as the best market stratergy.

This stratergy makes for shallow MMO's with no replayability. MMO's are easymode today, call that a myth if you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore what has happened.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5381

I dare you to pin a label on me.

4/05/13 6:27:42 AM#242
Originally posted by Scot

We have discussed this many times before, players always take the easy route. If you had differant difficulty levels in a MMO it would not work. How do you explain to your guildmates that you are going to be level 25 when they have got to 50? You could have servers with differant levels of difficulty, but I would not expect a company to go to such expense.

We need MMO's to be harder, the question is how much harder? If players only took on average 10% longer to reach max level that would be a harder game. The problem is do MMO companies want to risk their game by making it harder? No they don't, they make them as easy as they can, this is now seen as the best market stratergy.

This stratergy makes for shallow MMO's with no replayability. MMO's are easymode today, call that a myth if you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore what has happened.

You can't call current MMO's easymode when you don't even play them. You want challenge, you play instanced content. Open world content hardly ever scales, so you can usually out-level the content if you wish to. You can also bring more friends if it feels too hard. Instances, on the otherhand, give you a chance to customize your difficulty and really test yourself (usually for higher rewards) if you wish it. Freedom to the player, eh?

Public quests, rifts and dynamic events are the most recent innovations to open world content which has never offered much challenge (imo). Still, even if the challenge they provide is dictated by how well they scale, it is much better than the arcaic static content of the past. I'd be encouraged to know if iterations like these would become the norm for open world content.

Alas, big part of the posters who cry "easymode" are purists choosing to ignore those advances. They are against instances and many are even against scaling. If you ask me, they're pretty much against any advances and anything new.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17979

 
OP  4/05/13 11:12:53 AM#243
Originally posted by Scot

We have discussed this many times before, players always take the easy route. If you had differant difficulty levels in a MMO it would not work. How do you explain to your guildmates that you are going to be level 25 when they have got to 50? You could have servers with differant levels of difficulty, but I would not expect a company to go to such expense.

Obviously not all of them. Otherwise no one will run hard core raid, or MP10 on D3, or hard core perma mode on D3.

It would not work? It is already working. Use a LFR matching algorithm. Already done in D3. Already done in WOW (three levels to choose from).

We need MMO's to be harder, the question is how much harder? If players only took on average 10% longer to reach max level that would be a harder game. The problem is do MMO companies want to risk their game by making it harder? No they don't, they make them as easy as they can, this is now seen as the best market stratergy.

No. We need difficulty options. More options in WOW would be good. Instead of 3 levels of raid, may be 5 .. with LFR for all.

This stratergy makes for shallow MMO's with no replayability. MMO's are easymode today, call that a myth if you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore what has happened.

No replayability? Don't confuse "you don't like it" with no replayability. There are millions raiding every day .. tell me they are not "replaying". Personally i don't like MMO raids anymore .. but i won't say they have no replayability just that i don't like it.

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1174

Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute.

4/05/13 2:37:42 PM#244


Originally posted by nariusseldon


Originally posted by Scot We need MMO's to be harder...

No. We need difficulty options...



I agree with Narius that players need difficulty options; but I disagree that all difficulty options should exist on the same server.



Originally posted by Scot
...You could have servers with differant levels of difficulty, but I would not expect a company to go to such expense.

Yes, sadly, to their own peril. I predict EQN will just be another flavor-of-the-month unless it has different server types (easy/hard) to appeal to a larger audience.


Originally posted by Scot
MMO's are easymode today, call that a myth if you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore what has happened.


I feel similarly.


I'm not going to a party full of clowns (F2P), then offer to buy them all drinks. -GregorMcgregor

Playing: XCom, Rome Total War, Master of Orion II, Majesty 2, and HOMM I.
Played: Everquest, Planetside, Vanguard, Pirates of the Burning Sea, EVE, UO.

  Phelcher

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/01/09
Posts: 1133

4/05/13 3:03:00 PM#245
Can anyone explain to me, how an over commercailized (nowhere near as good as the orivinal) Dioblo3 has any bearing on MMORPG's...

It was an arcade game. Far different than what is ArcheAge EQNext, or other mmorpgs.

If someone constantly references WoW.. it is bcuz it's all he knows...

"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


-Nariusseldon

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2437

4/05/13 3:27:12 PM#246
Originally posted by Phelcher
Can anyone explain to me, how an over commercailized (nowhere near as good as the orivinal) Dioblo3 has any bearing on MMORPG's...

It was an arcade game. Far different than what is ArcheAge EQNext, or other mmorpgs.

If someone constantly references WoW.. it is bcuz it's all he knows...

The EQ fanboys are more annoying because for some reason they think that they are superior to the WoW fanboys and they are not :D 

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  GreenKrack

Novice Member

Joined: 4/05/13
Posts: 6

4/05/13 4:19:54 PM#247
Agree with OP.
  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1174

Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute.

4/05/13 5:24:36 PM#248


Originally posted by fivoroth

Originally posted by Phelcher Can anyone explain to me, how an over commercailized (nowhere near as good as the orivinal) Dioblo3 has any bearing on MMORPG's... It was an arcade game. Far different than what is ArcheAge EQNext, or other mmorpgs. If someone constantly references WoW.. it is bcuz it's all he knows...
The EQ fanboys are more annoying because for some reason they think that they are superior to the WoW fanboys and they are not :D 


Initially I thought, hey I don't think that way at all. Then I did the math. A 12 year old can do quite well in Vanilla WoW. A 12 year old would have quite a hard time in Everquest.

If by 'superior' you mean more skilled or increased cognitive ability, then yes the average EQ player *was* superior to the average WoW player. Outliers of course exist.

But, those WoW 12 year olds are now very capable adults so that cliche no longer applies.

I'm not going to a party full of clowns (F2P), then offer to buy them all drinks. -GregorMcgregor

Playing: XCom, Rome Total War, Master of Orion II, Majesty 2, and HOMM I.
Played: Everquest, Planetside, Vanguard, Pirates of the Burning Sea, EVE, UO.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4746

4/06/13 4:23:00 AM#249
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Scot

We have discussed this many times before, players always take the easy route. If you had differant difficulty levels in a MMO it would not work. How do you explain to your guildmates that you are going to be level 25 when they have got to 50? You could have servers with differant levels of difficulty, but I would not expect a company to go to such expense.

We need MMO's to be harder, the question is how much harder? If players only took on average 10% longer to reach max level that would be a harder game. The problem is do MMO companies want to risk their game by making it harder? No they don't, they make them as easy as they can, this is now seen as the best market stratergy.

This stratergy makes for shallow MMO's with no replayability. MMO's are easymode today, call that a myth if you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore what has happened.

You can't call current MMO's easymode when you don't even play them. You want challenge, you play instanced content. Open world content hardly ever scales, so you can usually out-level the content if you wish to. You can also bring more friends if it feels too hard. Instances, on the otherhand, give you a chance to customize your difficulty and really test yourself (usually for higher rewards) if you wish it. Freedom to the player, eh?

Public quests, rifts and dynamic events are the most recent innovations to open world content which has never offered much challenge (imo). Still, even if the challenge they provide is dictated by how well they scale, it is much better than the arcaic static content of the past. I'd be encouraged to know if iterations like these would become the norm for open world content.

Alas, big part of the posters who cry "easymode" are purists choosing to ignore those advances. They are against instances and many are even against scaling. If you ask me, they're pretty much against any advances and anything new.

Who said I don't play them? I only play some to be with old guild mates, but I still get to see them. I am not saying easyMMO's have nothing to offer. SWTOR snd TSW have both been decent in the last year. But would I have played them more than three months without my guildmates being there? No.

Public quests and dynamic events are new and should be applauded, but they don't solve the basic problems MMO's now have.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4746

4/06/13 4:31:45 AM#250
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot

We have discussed this many times before, players always take the easy route. If you had differant difficulty levels in a MMO it would not work. How do you explain to your guildmates that you are going to be level 25 when they have got to 50? You could have servers with differant levels of difficulty, but I would not expect a company to go to such expense.

Obviously not all of them. Otherwise no one will run hard core raid, or MP10 on D3, or hard core perma mode on D3.

It would not work? It is already working. Use a LFR matching algorithm. Already done in D3. Already done in WOW (three levels to choose from).

We need MMO's to be harder, the question is how much harder? If players only took on average 10% longer to reach max level that would be a harder game. The problem is do MMO companies want to risk their game by making it harder? No they don't, they make them as easy as they can, this is now seen as the best market stratergy.

No. We need difficulty options. More options in WOW would be good. Instead of 3 levels of raid, may be 5 .. with LFR for all.

This stratergy makes for shallow MMO's with no replayability. MMO's are easymode today, call that a myth if you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore what has happened.

No replayability? Don't confuse "you don't like it" with no replayability. There are millions raiding every day .. tell me they are not "replaying". Personally i don't like MMO raids anymore .. but i won't say they have no replayability just that i don't like it.

 

I don’t think you quite understood me here. I was not talking about different difficulty levels that yield different rewards. I was talking about the idea that you could have different difficulty levels giving the same reward on the same server. This would never take of as far as I can see. Having raids at different difficulty levels yielding different rewards works fine.

As to modern MMO's having little replayability. Think back to MMO's which started you out in different zones according to race, with different quests to do. Where you were not lead from quest hub to quest hub but could pick up quests from a stranger on road you happened to bump into. That’s part of what I mean, I am not talking about endgame here, I am talking about leveling up a second avatar. You may be shocked to hear some people like to do that Nari. :)

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17979

 
OP  4/07/13 1:18:06 PM#251
Originally posted by Scot
 

I don’t think you quite understood me here. I was not talking about different difficulty levels that yield different rewards. I was talking about the idea that you could have different difficulty levels giving the same reward on the same server. This would never take of as far as I can see. Having raids at different difficulty levels yielding different rewards works fine.

Agreed. Different difficulty should be acompanying with different rewards. That is a proven concept.

As to modern MMO's having little replayability. Think back to MMO's which started you out in different zones according to race, with different quests to do. Where you were not lead from quest hub to quest hub but could pick up quests from a stranger on road you happened to bump into. That’s part of what I mean, I am not talking about endgame here, I am talking about leveling up a second avatar. You may be shocked to hear some people like to do that Nari. :)

Hmm .. there is no replaybaility in either case. You level from 1-max level only once.

And in this case, replayability is not even desired .. at least not from me. There is nothing wrong with one-off non-repeatable quests/zones. In fact, that is content, you do something to level 10, then you do something else for L10-15.

In fact, there is no reason not to design the leveling game like a SP game (which is how it is done in WOW, and explicitly in STO, and many other games).

Replayability is only desired when you run out of content (at end game)... so you hope like hell that it is fun to repeat. It is always better (for me) to have something new to do.

 

 

  KaosProphet

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 383

4/07/13 2:45:29 PM#252
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by fivoroth

Originally posted by Phelcher Can anyone explain to me, how an over commercailized (nowhere near as good as the orivinal) Dioblo3 has any bearing on MMORPG's... It was an arcade game. Far different than what is ArcheAge EQNext, or other mmorpgs. If someone constantly references WoW.. it is bcuz it's all he knows...
The EQ fanboys are more annoying because for some reason they think that they are superior to the WoW fanboys and they are not :D 


Initially I thought, hey I don't think that way at all. Then I did the math. A 12 year old can do quite well in Vanilla WoW. A 12 year old would have quite a hard time in Everquest.

You don't know some of the 12-year olds that I do.  Let's not make ageist generalizations here; even if they are mostly true, they're still rather dismissive to the outliers who deserve better.

That aside: I seem to recall, back when EQ was the "big game" and seeing flamewars between tje EQ and UO fanboys, that the EQ players *at that time* sounded a lot like the WoW players do today.  Among other things, they loved to cite how the relative popularity of their preferred game was defacto proof that it was a better game.  (Logic that would suggest WoW is in fact strictly superior to every other MMO, and that Farmville was the best game ever made.)

Of course, back then I was a UO fan myself so I'm *probably* a little biased in my recollection.

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2437

4/08/13 3:47:38 AM#253
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by fivoroth

Originally posted by Phelcher Can anyone explain to me, how an over commercailized (nowhere near as good as the orivinal) Dioblo3 has any bearing on MMORPG's... It was an arcade game. Far different than what is ArcheAge EQNext, or other mmorpgs. If someone constantly references WoW.. it is bcuz it's all he knows...
The EQ fanboys are more annoying because for some reason they think that they are superior to the WoW fanboys and they are not :D 

 


Initially I thought, hey I don't think that way at all. Then I did the math. A 12 year old can do quite well in Vanilla WoW. A 12 year old would have quite a hard time in Everquest.

If by 'superior' you mean more skilled or increased cognitive ability, then yes the average EQ player *was* superior to the average WoW player. Outliers of course exist.

But, those WoW 12 year olds are now very capable adults so that cliche no longer applies.

I don't know if people who play EQ are more skilled or have increased cognitive ability. It is extremely difficult to make such generalisations and also if you look at WoW's PvP it does require skill and cognitive ability more so than most of the stuff in EQ. But  from what I have seen most EQ players base their comparisons solely on the leveling experience. EQ leveling more difficult than WoW's leveling (presumably) and so EQ is more difficult. That's how the logic seems to go, completely ignoring the fact that WoW's raids and PvP (especially WoW's PvP but then again EQ never actually had PvP :D) may actually require more skill.

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4746

4/08/13 4:09:50 AM#254
As to posts about what MMO's 12 year olds would struggle with. Remember we had the hard ones first. If I had played GW2 first then tried EQ when I was 12, I think I could get lost as to the complexity and difficulty.
  Foncl

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/14/11
Posts: 186

4/08/13 4:24:47 AM#255

Easy, accessible, low skill floor, low skill ceiling, convenient is what sells alot of copies these days from my perspective. The best example I can think of is the FPS genre. I grew up playing Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake, Heretic, Unreal Tournament and similar games, those games are very challenging and new players have no chance against experienced players in multiplayer because of the high skill ceiling.

 

Games like Quake and Unreal Tournament have advanced movement mechanics and physics that take years to learn well but are very fun and rewarding if you put in the effort to improve, just moving around in those games is alot of fun once you learn the basics. FPS games with advanced movement are simply not made today since they don't sell well enough, the FPS genre is huge but people want games which are easy to learn and where you have a better chance of killing experienced players like Call of Duty, Battlefield, Halo etc.

 

If I grew up today I would likely be playing the easier and more accessible games aswell but back when I grew up those didn't exist so I spent years trying to get good at very challenging games. For me challenging and complex games which take some effort getting into are always the most rewarding ones long term but unfortunately for me it doesn't seem to be the types of games that do well at the moment :/

  Alkozath

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 37

4/08/13 4:40:50 AM#256

to OP, nice set of statistic their using there, where the statistic telling us how many tried the different difficulties and why they didnt finish ?

 

yes the statistic only tells us how many of the total amounth of players that finished it and nothing else, whats intresting for me is the one that didnt. did they stop because it was to hard and got frustrated, to easy and they got bored, or just that it wasent compellng enough to keep trying ? why just that difficulty setting and not the others ? they wanted to roll though to see it all or was the game really not that intresting to start with ?, and so on, there is to many questions left unanswered to draw any conclusion from it, and if you do your not trying enough and your company is going down the drain tbh.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17979

 
OP  4/08/13 10:31:24 AM#257
Originally posted by Foncl

Easy, accessible, low skill floor, low skill ceiling, convenient is what sells alot of copies these days from my perspective. The best example I can think of is the FPS genre. I grew up playing Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake, Heretic, Unreal Tournament and similar games, those games are very challenging and new players have no chance against experienced players in multiplayer because of the high skill ceiling.

 

Games like Quake and Unreal Tournament have advanced movement mechanics and physics that take years to learn well but are very fun and rewarding if you put in the effort to improve, just moving around in those games is alot of fun once you learn the basics. FPS games with advanced movement are simply not made today since they don't sell well enough, the FPS genre is huge but people want games which are easy to learn and where you have a better chance of killing experienced players like Call of Duty, Battlefield, Halo etc.

 

If I grew up today I would likely be playing the easier and more accessible games aswell but back when I grew up those didn't exist so I spent years trying to get good at very challenging games. For me challenging and complex games which take some effort getting into are always the most rewarding ones long term but unfortunately for me it doesn't seem to be the types of games that do well at the moment :/

You are talking about PvP or PvE? PvP is always challenging .. just because the opponent is a human.

PvE ... well .. there are difficulty option in FPS. I heard that, for example, Bioshock Infinite is really tough at the most difficult setting.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17979

 
OP  4/08/13 10:34:29 AM#258
Originally posted by Alkozath

to OP, nice set of statistic their using there, where the statistic telling us how many tried the different difficulties and why they didnt finish ?

 

yes the statistic only tells us how many of the total amounth of players that finished it and nothing else, whats intresting for me is the one that didnt. did they stop because it was to hard and got frustrated, to easy and they got bored, or just that it wasent compellng enough to keep trying ? why just that difficulty setting and not the others ? they wanted to roll though to see it all or was the game really not that intresting to start with ?, and so on, there is to many questions left unanswered to draw any conclusion from it, and if you do your not trying enough and your company is going down the drain tbh.

Well, if more players finish the easy-mode than the hard mode, the conclusion is pretty straight forward .. they choose to play through easy, rather than hard for what-ever reason.

In this case, i doubt they don't play through hard mode because it is too easy ... because obviously they want to go through the content (in easy mode).

And the fact that more players go through the content when there are difficulty options say something.

  Thane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1682

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

4/08/13 10:48:03 AM#259
Originally posted by Squeak69
Originally posted by BadSpock

I've found a lot of people who say MMOs are too "easy" are 10+ year veterans who, after this amout of time, should damn well be quite skilled at playing them.

If it is still "hard" after 10 years, you're doing it wrong...

 

good point this

or the devs are doing something right :)

 

 

sure, talking of WoW (as example), lfr is easy. that's why it's there. to offer people an easy way to see the content.

as i said before on other threads tho, that's not what WoW is about.

 

 

wanna play it for real? try to build a team (of friends) and clear the "normal" difficulty.

should be hard enough for the casual gamer.

 

you don't "just" play casual? you are "pro"? raiding 5 days a week?

set it on HC, and there is your challange.

 

 

 

if you are running a game for several million people, you DO need to differ. you DO need to give all those options.

* just giving the easy option? people won't play for long.

* just giving the normal option? you lose a small ammount of players, who neither have the time nor the passion to complete the normal raids. maybe they have a family, work, or whatever

* just give em the hc option? well, you'd lose all but about 5% of your player base

 

ghostcrawler on that topic:

How about making wow more like an amusement park, where there's a little bit of everything & you CHOOSE what you want to do?
In WoW, players tend to just pick whatever has the shortest line, not what is the most fun (and then get grumpy about that fact). (Source)

 

 

i am playing WoW since it's release now, did a minor break now and then, but MY guild is still running and raiding. we are working on our "normal" progress and are having fun while doing so. we aren't amongst the best 3 of our server, nor doing first kills. but that's not what games are about.

in shooters (deathmatch), there is ONE person winning, people still play it tho. does the rest complain it's too hard? does #1 go for "this game is to easy man!"

 

 

i'd say if you are still having fun after nearly a decade of playing the same game...

 

YOU ARE DOING IT RIGHT!

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4331

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

4/08/13 11:26:05 AM#260

To people who say that most people would choose the easy route, not necessarily.

In CoH, by far the most common grouping method (at least of the ones that I was in) was to play at the hardest setting (and not just architect missions, after the first year or so and nerfs of that, that was the least effective way to level).

Now it may just be because with a full group and highest difficulty, that was the most effective way to level, which it was but it was still the hardest setting.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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