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Neverwinter

Neverwinter 

General Discussion  » The PVP is just not good...

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57 posts found
  Caiden

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/08
Posts: 30

3/25/13 10:26:00 AM#41

You know, going into this I expected some sort of Champions Online mess, but I was pleasantly surprised.

I've PvP quite a lot in a lot of games, and while I can say this PvP isn't anything 'new', it is fun. If you enjoyed Battlegrounds in Rift or Wow or Tera, it's the same layout essentially. 5v5, Fight over some points with some great skirmishes.

 

I had a really good time. Even got to about 10,000 Glory over the weekend. Balance seemed fine. Even people popping potions just delayed the inevitable.

  Ezhae

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/06
Posts: 734

3/25/13 10:34:10 AM#42
Originally posted by Caiden

You know, going into this I expected some sort of Champions Online mess, but I was pleasantly surprised.

I've PvP quite a lot in a lot of games, and while I can say this PvP isn't anything 'new', it is fun. If you enjoyed Battlegrounds in Rift or Wow or Tera, it's the same layout essentially. 5v5, Fight over some points with some great skirmishes.

 

I had a really good time. Even got to about 10,000 Glory over the weekend. Balance seemed fine. Even people popping potions just delayed the inevitable.

Oh there is plenty of balance tweaking needed. Pulling 25-2-25 (kills-deaths-assists) regularly on Trickter Rogue is a little too strong. Same time GWFs felt rather useless (both when I played one and when I played against them) . The moment you start doing 4-5k+ Lashing Blade hits it's really hard to not kill someone.

 

My biggest complaint however is that the matches seemed to last too long. They could eithe rincrease the point gain on capture objectives or cut the points required by 1/3. 

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

3/25/13 11:00:41 AM#43
Originally posted by slicknslim88
Originally posted by Jyiiga
Originally posted by Kuppa
The posted video didn't look that horrible, but I believe that dps rules. I think the bigger problem is the animation rooting. Still if you want PvP go GW2.

Animation rooting is an issue, just not one people are exploiting yet. For the most part people wanted to fight, so everyone was in the fray.

However, melee classes will have a major issue engaging caster classes that do not wish to fight. It is very easy for them to just keep moving and then you can not land any standard hits. This was a huge weakness on the Guardian and the Great Weapon Fighter. They have encounter powers to close gaps, but after that they can not stay glued to their target. 

The Rogue on the other hand, can just switch to throwing daggers if you refuse to hold still. 

There is so much garbage being spat out about the PvP on these forums that it's almost criminal.  I'm about to open up a thread thats entirely speaking out on the PvP's strengths instead of having a completely negative view on it right form the get go.  People need to know that the PvP is awesomely fun as well as flawed.

The problem with this post Jyiiga is that sure, Guardian tanks and two handed fighters have problems keeping up with runners.  Although I would still argue that they don't because two handed fighters are fast mofo's with there sprint and other abilities, and Guardians have their charge attack that has ridiculous range.  But your right, they don't glue to their targets.  However thats why the gametype is Domination...killing isn't important, taking points is, so if the mage is running and you can't keep up...you shoulnd't keep up, you should go back to the point and protect it, you've done your job, you've repelled the enemy. 

Whining about not getting kills in a Domination/capture the points gametype is just childish and is nothing but pointless whining from people who aren't thinking about teamwork and don't fully understand their roll in PvP.

As for balance issues.  The classes were SHOCKINGLY balanced.  I have plenty of reasons for this, but that would result in a long post, I'm probably gonna make a thread on this.

Are you saying that the post that said that essentially rouges and sorcerers ruled the leader charts is a lie?


  slicknslim88

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 400

3/25/13 12:04:09 PM#44
Originally posted by Jyiiga

For those not familiar with the icons 1,2,3,4 and 7 are Rogues. Number 5 on the list is a Wizard. Great Weapon Fighters and Cleric at the bottom and my character is the lone Guardian. This is pretty much what you see in each pvp matchup. 

 

I find this post quite funny actually.  Jyiiga claims that rogues are overpowered because they top this leaderboard.   Yet the team WITHOUT the 3 badass rogues...won.  Very interesting.  Sure it was a close game, but the score doesnt lie.  Rogues may be great at getting kills, but class balance is key to winning.  

So yes, I'm saying that the fact rogues top the scores doesn't mean that they are imbalanced, just means they are great at killing folks.  This post proves that they aren't too good at winning.

If what people are claiming about rogues is true.  Blue team here should have mopped the floor with red team because they have 3 OP super rogues.  Not the case.

  Caiden

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/08
Posts: 30

3/25/13 12:30:00 PM#45
Originally posted by slicknslim88
Originally posted by Jyiiga
snip

 

I find this post quite funny actually.  Jyiiga claims that rogues are overpowered because they top this leaderboard.   Yet the team WITHOUT the 3 badass rogues...won.  Very interesting.  Sure it was a close game, but the score doesnt lie.  Rogues may be great at getting kills, but class balance is key to winning.  

So yes, I'm saying that the fact rogues top the scores doesn't mean that they are imbalanced, just means they are great at killing folks.  This post proves that they aren't too good at winning.

If what people are claiming about rogues is true.  Blue team here should have mopped the floor with red team because they have 3 OP super rogues.  Not the case.

 

My thoughts exactly. While rogues do have insane damage, they are easy to kite by mages and clerics. I rarely had any trouble with them, and topped a few times as a control wizard. One game I went 4-4-42...Sure I didn't get kills, but I enabled my team to win.

 

It's about the victory. Kills are good, but I think there's a nice triangle here on the power balance. I do agree that Great Weapon Fighters need a small buff.

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

3/25/13 12:32:29 PM#46
Originally posted by slicknslim88
Originally posted by Jyiiga

For those not familiar with the icons 1,2,3,4 and 7 are Rogues. Number 5 on the list is a Wizard. Great Weapon Fighters and Cleric at the bottom and my character is the lone Guardian. This is pretty much what you see in each pvp matchup. 

 

I find this post quite funny actually.  Jyiiga claims that rogues are overpowered because they top this leaderboard.   Yet the team WITHOUT the 3 badass rogues...won.  Very interesting.  Sure it was a close game, but the score doesnt lie.  Rogues may be great at getting kills, but class balance is key to winning.  

So yes, I'm saying that the fact rogues top the scores doesn't mean that they are imbalanced, just means they are great at killing folks.  This post proves that they aren't too good at winning.

If what people are claiming about rogues is true.  Blue team here should have mopped the floor with red team because they have 3 OP super rogues.  Not the case.

Maybe they were just looking to get kills. Still if they focused on capping would the other classes been a match for the rouges on a cap point?


  slicknslim88

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 400

3/25/13 12:37:14 PM#47
Originally posted by Caiden
Originally posted by slicknslim88
Originally posted by Jyiiga
snip

 

I find this post quite funny actually.  Jyiiga claims that rogues are overpowered because they top this leaderboard.   Yet the team WITHOUT the 3 badass rogues...won.  Very interesting.  Sure it was a close game, but the score doesnt lie.  Rogues may be great at getting kills, but class balance is key to winning.  

So yes, I'm saying that the fact rogues top the scores doesn't mean that they are imbalanced, just means they are great at killing folks.  This post proves that they aren't too good at winning.

If what people are claiming about rogues is true.  Blue team here should have mopped the floor with red team because they have 3 OP super rogues.  Not the case.

 

My thoughts exactly. While rogues do have insane damage, they are easy to kite by mages and clerics. I rarely had any trouble with them, and topped a few times as a control wizard. One game I went 4-4-42...Sure I didn't get kills, but I enabled my team to win.

 

It's about the victory. Kills are good, but I think there's a nice triangle here on the power balance. I do agree that Great Weapon Fighters need a small buff.

We are on the same page, agree with everything you said.  Also agree that two handed fighters need a bit of tweaking.

  slicknslim88

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 400

3/25/13 2:20:49 PM#48
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by slicknslim88
Originally posted by Jyiiga

For those not familiar with the icons 1,2,3,4 and 7 are Rogues. Number 5 on the list is a Wizard. Great Weapon Fighters and Cleric at the bottom and my character is the lone Guardian. This is pretty much what you see in each pvp matchup. 

 

I find this post quite funny actually.  Jyiiga claims that rogues are overpowered because they top this leaderboard.   Yet the team WITHOUT the 3 badass rogues...won.  Very interesting.  Sure it was a close game, but the score doesnt lie.  Rogues may be great at getting kills, but class balance is key to winning.  

So yes, I'm saying that the fact rogues top the scores doesn't mean that they are imbalanced, just means they are great at killing folks.  This post proves that they aren't too good at winning.

If what people are claiming about rogues is true.  Blue team here should have mopped the floor with red team because they have 3 OP super rogues.  Not the case.

Maybe they were just looking to get kills. Still if they focused on capping would the other classes been a match for the rouges on a cap point?

It's hard to say Kuppa.  Truly skilled players, no matter there class, could probably find a way to win.  They would realize that they have a class diversity disadvantage, and play accordingly.  To answer your question though, when I was a rogue, it was difficult for me to stay on a capture point, mainly due to my squishiness, and due to control wizards sniping at me.  Thinking critically, it would be very hard for me to put money on 3 rogues, vs a control wizard, a cleric, and a guardian warrior.  rogues would eat it.

  Ginrai15

Novice Member

Joined: 4/05/07
Posts: 8

3/25/13 2:27:08 PM#49
I ran a couple matches with my control wizard (around lvl 10-15) and it seemed more interesting than the other pvp I've played. I'm not a pvp player though so  it might just be that it was refreshing to have a caster that seemed to be competative.  It seemed to me that teamwork was the key.  My first team won 1000-78 working together and keeping control of all 3 nodes.  My second team got beat nearly as bad, but they were running one at a time at the group of opponents who were just sitting and waiting for them to run like lemmings to their death. It'll obviously get more balance tweaks before launch and then people will just have to use common sense and practice at max level before pvp gets into full swing.  I'd just give it the time and a chance and then give a verdict.

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

3/25/13 2:28:38 PM#50
Originally posted by slicknslim88
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by slicknslim88
Originally posted by Jyiiga

For those not familiar with the icons 1,2,3,4 and 7 are Rogues. Number 5 on the list is a Wizard. Great Weapon Fighters and Cleric at the bottom and my character is the lone Guardian. This is pretty much what you see in each pvp matchup. 

 

I find this post quite funny actually.  Jyiiga claims that rogues are overpowered because they top this leaderboard.   Yet the team WITHOUT the 3 badass rogues...won.  Very interesting.  Sure it was a close game, but the score doesnt lie.  Rogues may be great at getting kills, but class balance is key to winning.  

So yes, I'm saying that the fact rogues top the scores doesn't mean that they are imbalanced, just means they are great at killing folks.  This post proves that they aren't too good at winning.

If what people are claiming about rogues is true.  Blue team here should have mopped the floor with red team because they have 3 OP super rogues.  Not the case.

Maybe they were just looking to get kills. Still if they focused on capping would the other classes been a match for the rouges on a cap point?

It's hard to say Kuppa.  Truly skilled players, no matter there class, could probably find a way to win.  They would realize that they have a class diversity disadvantage, and play accordingly.  To answer your question though, when I was a rogue, it was difficult for me to stay on a capture point, mainly due to my squishiness, and due to control wizards sniping at me.  Thinking critically, it would be very hard for me to put money on 3 rogues, vs a control wizard, a cleric, and a guardian warrior.  rogues would eat it.

That is good to hear. Even though I wanted to play some pvp this weekend I couldn't. In time I will hopefully be able to chime in with my opinions. I have a feeling that the rooting will kill it for me though. It did me in in Tera as well.


  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

3/25/13 2:36:06 PM#51

Rogues are definitely OP and I doubt they will stay that way.  For PvP CW are also pretty powerful, but not by themselves.  The steamroll team combo is the TR / CW team.  A little control and the rogue can end the enemy before they come out of control.  If they even do come out of control with a little health the rogue can disable them and finish them off.

It's the first weekend the system has been public though so expect to see some changes and class balancing.  I think the TR is a little OP in pve as well.  It has both insane damage and great survivability plus the limited stealth.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  slicknslim88

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 400

3/25/13 2:37:40 PM#52

Rooted animations was something that turned Tera off for me, but for some reason in this game it feels not only necessary, but it feels really good.  For classes like Cleric, Rogue, and control wizard.  Rooted animations weren't all that detrimental.  Rogues attacks are fast enough that you can rush in, slash, then move quickly, only being rooted for a very brief moment.  CW's and Clerics have ranged attacks, so i mean, they are whatever.  The only classes where I found At-Wills almost totally useless was Guardian fighters, and two handers.  Guardian fighters though have such short cooldowns on their cooldown powers that I'm second guessing whether or not that they are meant to use basic attacks at all in PvP.  

Two handers are the anomaly though, I've been told that around level 20+ they get better, but they seemed very gimped in the 10-19 bracket.  Rooting really hurt me when I tried playing them in PvP.  My attacks were so slow that I would get nickel and dimed to death in between my swipes.  I only played 1 match with them though.  However I didn't really see them as a threat when I faced them.

Just don't immediatly write off the combat just cuz it roots you.  Part of what makes rooted animations appealing is that the combat looks great, it's very visually stylish and appealing.  There is no jumping around like bunnies that makes the combat really silly looking and annoying.

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

3/25/13 2:43:49 PM#53
Originally posted by slicknslim88

Rooted animations was something that turned Tera off for me, but for some reason in this game it feels not only necessary, but it feels really good.  For classes like Cleric, Rogue, and control wizard.  Rooted animations weren't all that detrimental.  Rogues attacks are fast enough that you can rush in, slash, then move quickly, only being rooted for a very brief moment.  CW's and Clerics have ranged attacks, so i mean, they are whatever.  The only classes where I found At-Wills almost totally useless was Guardian fighters, and two handers.  Guardian fighters though have such short cooldowns on their cooldown powers that I'm second guessing whether or not that they are meant to use basic attacks at all in PvP.  

Two handers are the anomaly though, I've been told that around level 20+ they get better, but they seemed very gimped in the 10-19 bracket.  Rooting really hurt me when I tried playing them in PvP.  My attacks were so slow that I would get nickel and dimed to death in between my swipes.  I only played 1 match with them though.  However I didn't really see them as a threat when I faced them.

Just don't immediatly write off the combat just cuz it roots you.  Part of what makes rooted animations appealing is that the combat looks great, it's very visually stylish and appealing.  There is no jumping around like bunnies that makes the combat really silly looking and annoying.

Im sorry but I will never be able to say that rooted animations are necessary in my mmo. I like mobility and if there is one that goes against mobility it's rooting you in place. I may be able to live with them if other aspects are good, but not say they are good and/or necessary.


  Ezhae

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/06
Posts: 734

3/25/13 2:55:57 PM#54
Originally posted by slicknslim88
Originally posted by Jyiiga

For those not familiar with the icons 1,2,3,4 and 7 are Rogues. Number 5 on the list is a Wizard. Great Weapon Fighters and Cleric at the bottom and my character is the lone Guardian. This is pretty much what you see in each pvp matchup. 

 

I find this post quite funny actually.  Jyiiga claims that rogues are overpowered because they top this leaderboard.   Yet the team WITHOUT the 3 badass rogues...won.  Very interesting.  Sure it was a close game, but the score doesnt lie.  Rogues may be great at getting kills, but class balance is key to winning.  

So yes, I'm saying that the fact rogues top the scores doesn't mean that they are imbalanced, just means they are great at killing folks.  This post proves that they aren't too good at winning.

If what people are claiming about rogues is true.  Blue team here should have mopped the floor with red team because they have 3 OP super rogues.  Not the case.

They are just bad players. See thing is you can get the kills while stanidng on capture point. It's their fault only they went roaming too much and messed it up. With 10 deaths you are out of match for about 2 minutes (not counting the run back time), if i can constantly keep 2 players of your team out of the game by just killing them over and over again and my team isn't just bunch of idiots there is no way you will get even close to winning. Most matches I've seen with simialr class setups were about 1000 vs 300-500. 

  slicknslim88

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 400

3/25/13 3:00:51 PM#55
Originally posted by Ezhae
Originally posted by slicknslim88
Originally posted by Jyiiga

For those not familiar with the icons 1,2,3,4 and 7 are Rogues. Number 5 on the list is a Wizard. Great Weapon Fighters and Cleric at the bottom and my character is the lone Guardian. This is pretty much what you see in each pvp matchup. 

 

I find this post quite funny actually.  Jyiiga claims that rogues are overpowered because they top this leaderboard.   Yet the team WITHOUT the 3 badass rogues...won.  Very interesting.  Sure it was a close game, but the score doesnt lie.  Rogues may be great at getting kills, but class balance is key to winning.  

So yes, I'm saying that the fact rogues top the scores doesn't mean that they are imbalanced, just means they are great at killing folks.  This post proves that they aren't too good at winning.

If what people are claiming about rogues is true.  Blue team here should have mopped the floor with red team because they have 3 OP super rogues.  Not the case.

They are just bad players. See thing is you can get the kills while stanidng on capture point. It's their fault only they went roaming too much and messed it up. With 10 deaths you are out of match for about 2 minutes (not counting the run back time), if i can constantly keep 2 players of your team out of the game by just killing them over and over again and my team isn't just bunch of idiots there is no way you will get even close to winning. Most matches I've seen with simialr class setups were about 1000 vs 300-500. 

I'm not gonna repeat myself twice.  Read up on what i've said, and also read up on my thread I posted about PvP balance.

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2828

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

3/25/13 3:05:57 PM#56

Honestly, the pvp itself was surprisingly fun. Granted I was amazed the game itself was much better then I expected in general, PvP wise in terms of that I found it entertaining. Simple but entertaining.

 

Could it use fixes? Definently, but it wasn't that horrible. Considering its set up tends to lend towards PvE, I'm not one to expect pvp to be sheer amazing, perhaps with time it can be fixed up? Either way if your looking for just pvp, I'd not hold your breatht oo much with this game, you never know though, particularly if foundry gives options for pvp, someone might end up making some crazy pvp mode map that could end up being a big hit.

  StMichael

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/10
Posts: 188

God said "Vengeance is mine." Don't think to bear his burden lightly.

3/26/13 4:05:42 PM#57

There's definitely room for improvement, and I think there will be quite a lot of diversity and complexity added with the addition of new classes (Ranger, Paladin, Warlock, Druid, Barbarian, Sorcerer, the list goes on.) Their monetization model is built for expanding, almost reminiscent of League of Legends adding new champions. 

 

Coming from World of Warcraft PvP with the absurd amount of CC and non-existent class definition, TOR with their severe ability bloating and lack of will to create meaningful PvP mechanics, and WAR with unmitigated zerg mentality, this game is a breath of fresh air for PvP.

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