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Neverwinter

Neverwinter 

General Discussion  » Neverwinter Impression

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  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

 
OP  3/23/13 3:07:50 PM#1

(This is originally meant for Cryptic Feedback, but I guess I wanted to share this here, too.)

 

Oh my. Where to begin?

Ya know, at the beginning 2 weeks ago I really like Neverwinter. I played Rogue and Cleric to 20 and it was ok. Not thrilling me out of my boots, but fun enough.

This weekend, I really have doubts I am going to play this game at all. I played Wizard to 10 and Guardian and GWF to the same level... and no. Just no. I mean, the game looks interesting enough, but the combat system is what just breaks this game for me. Just a few impressions, because I am atm too tired to write it in detail:

 

- the rooting combat is just feeling SO yesterday. In an action combat system as this and in 2013 I just EXPECT a combat system where I can move, and where I am NOT rooted while fighting. That feels just totally off.

- I say it as clearly as I feel it: the potion system is what totally breaks this game *for me*. I like to solo, and unless you play Cleric or Rogue with the decoy you just waste away potions. And sorry, I know this is how D&D works, but we don't have 1990. This game need a regular HP regen. Period. Just drop this potion heal system. It is what really prevents me from playing this game, even if everything else was great. I don't like it. It's clumsy, old fashioned, and punishes you for playing a non cleric or non-rogue because you spent TONS more money for potions. It is simply yesterday's game mechanic. It has to go. Guardians, Wizards and GWF have no way to really evade or heal, so you WILL lose HP, and that makes soloing a chore.

 

ADDITIONAL NOTES:

 

- The F loot is just needlessly cumbersome. Just let us auto-loot stuff like the money.

- There is a serious difficulty gap between 10 and 16, when you get your companion. I suggest we should get out first free companion with level 10 or earlier.

- Alas, the game is too close to the old D&D ideal, that you start SUPER weak. Again, that is yesterday's gameplay. Classes started to feel real with lv 18 or 20, and classes should be cool right away.

- there are WAAY too few armor, clothing and weapon models. And they look way too primitive, sorry. Nothing to look forward to.

- Wizard, Guardian and GWF especially feel totally hectic. I found myself just button smashing, but that was more or less the case with all classes. I dunno why, but the game makes me feel worn out, like after work, pretty quickly. Combat and controls are just needing a long way to improve.

- The early on experience is boring. Sorry, it is even for a tutorial bad. You should captivate the players with excitement and coolness, and this... doesn't work. I really would rework the entire first 10 levels. Let the player FEEL good. Somehow give him the feeling to be strong and have some impact, like the tutorial from Champions Online!

- Why the heck is there no zoom?

- Neverwinter is no tabletop game. People WILL want to solo, and as it is the game is way too solo unfriendly. Again, the first ten or fifteen levels are just chore, don't feel epic and rewarding, it feels like work. Both the powers and the story experience needs rework. The classes are clearly designed for group play, as a Pen and Paper game, but in a MMO people solo most of the time. It can't be changed. But the design of the classes is NOT for soloing. It just doesn't work. Again, drop the potion idea, add a normal self regen as in EVERY other MMO.

- Monster respawn is WAAAY too high. It's insane! I turn around and BAM all the Orcs are back. I can't explore at all, and it kills any feeling of accomplishment.

 

TL;DR:

Neverwinter has the potential to be good and cool, but IMVPO it needs a lot of work yet and the daring to drop some D&D ideologies and become a more modern MMO. This ain't 1990.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  fiontar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/04
Posts: 3687

3/23/13 5:39:12 PM#2

I completely agree with just about everything in your post.

I had some fun playing it, but it really comes accross as a clunky, very outdated title. If it had come out eight years ago, I probably would have loved it. In 2013? The game just doesn't cut it.

I can see myself playing it from time to time for a little bit of "nostalgic feel" gaming, but it's pretty sad that WotC/Hasbro decided to waste the ip on another developer that just could not deliver a game that could thrive in the time in which it is released.

The environments aren't bad, once you turn off post processing bloom and depth of field effects. The character models and animations would have been bad a half decade ago, now they are just laughable. Combat is clunky. No XP for kills, so quest grinding is the only way to advance.

In spite of it's blatant flaws, I still managed to find a little fun here, but with GW2 and the Defiance Beta demanding time from me this weekend, it just hasn't been compelling enough for me to play for more than an hour at a time, usually when the Defiance servers have crashed and I've been caught up on my GW2 dailies.

I think in the end it's just another typical PWE free to play game with a DnD wrapper. They will make money on it and it might become one of their more popular offerings, but it's a non-event in the AAA MMORPG space.

Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated

  Undeadly

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/03/08
Posts: 50

3/23/13 5:43:50 PM#3

You make some valid points but here is what I thought of it after playing for the first time today....

 

Hi,  So I got into the Neverwinter closed beta weekend and I really enjoyed it.  The framerate was an issue but the game already feels pretty solid.  It is good that the races are not gender locked and there are copiuos amounts of customisation.

After playing for about six hours today I believe it is going to be a sturdy game.  Plenty of classes to play and subtle differences in how they all function.

Like I say, I did have some frame rate issues on a fairly decent Graphic card (GTx 550ti) But hopefully they will be fixed upon open beta.

If there was anything Im not keen on is that everybody starts in the same place and have to do all the same quests from the start but thats only a small issue I guess.

It isnt just a hotkey bashing fest either you get a limited amount of slots for skills so you have to be strategic about which skills you use.

Very excited about the prospect of User created quests but I have yet to try one.

Overall very good experience especially for a beta.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/23/13 5:51:19 PM#4

i agree some things feel very outdated mostly the look of some of the character models and the basic animations.. but the overall look is pretty good and of course there's the foundry.. to me the foundry is huge.. I used to spend hundreds of hours making games with RPG maker and even for the times the graphics and systems were very subpar for the time period but it was still fun making my own content... 

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  zerocount

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 135

3/23/13 5:55:14 PM#5
Originally posted by Aerowyn

i agree some things feel very outdated mostly the look of some of the character models and the basic animations.. but the overall look is pretty good and of course there's the foundry.. to me the foundry is huge.. I used to spend hundreds of hours making games with RPG maker and even for the times the graphics and systems were very subpar for the time period but it was still fun making my own content... 

Wow I thought the graphics of Neverwinter were better than this!!! :-p

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/23/13 6:02:15 PM#6
Originally posted by zerocount

 

Wow I thought the graphics of Neverwinter were better than this!!! :-p

LOL well glad we have moved a bit up from those times:P

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4617

3/23/13 6:12:33 PM#7

I do agree with parts of your post OP, however you may have missed some features of the game (i.e. Money IS auto-looted, you don't have to hit F to pick it up).

That said.. my general impressions of the game are this:

- I think people are consistantly trying to make this game out to be a failed version of something it isn't.

It's not a cutting edge MMO, and I haven't seen anywhere that claims it to be. It's essentially an updated throw-back to DDO, and I think for that it does it's job quite well.

The graphics do feel a bit dated, and could probably use a facelift if they are able. Especially given how segmented the world is, they should be able to afford (dataload-wise) a facelift.

The Foundry is actually a really great system, and I already got to experience some really interesting (though in some cases LONG) quests.

- Essentially the game is meant for DDO fans, who want a newer game, as well as enjoy reading tons of lore and backstory in their RPGs. The game offers this.

Weakenesses:

Graphics

Class Balance. Not all classes are available yet, but already some of the classes just feel a lot strong than others. For instance, everyone's playing a trickster rogue atm. Great-Weapon Fighter does a good job, but comes nowhere close to the same damage output. Control Wizard kind of has the same problem. They do decent damage, but just don't have enough CC to necessarily justify taking one over a heavy DPS class. Essentially most of the group content atm feels like: Guardian, Rogues, Cleric = win. I've had other group combinations, but none were as smooth, and I saw little benefit to bringing a Wizard or GWF along for the ride (even when I was playing as one).

I really hope they re-tweak the classes to bring them more inline, or tweak the dungeons / encounters so that each class has something distinctive they can bring to the fight outside of damage / threat / healing, and the random loot pickup. The rogues ability to see traps is insanely useful, but they already have the highest DPS, so they are kind of a default pickup anyway. Other classes need this type of utility, or more noticeable CC.

Aside from that, I think the game is fairly good for what it's intended to be. Again, this isn't supposed to be the next big MMO. It's just a fun game for DDO fans, and that's it.

  Draemos

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/20/10
Posts: 1459

3/23/13 6:35:35 PM#8
Originally posted by Elikal

 

 

- the rooting combat is just feeling SO yesterday. In an action combat system as this and in 2013 I just EXPECT a combat system where I can move, and where I am NOT rooted while fighting. That feels just totally off

 

Pretty much every good arcade combat game has animation lock to some extent.  Look at games like Gods of War and Devil May Cry.  What you like is a half-assed combat system adopted by GW2 and other mediocre combat games.  They don't value timing and position. You're describing a step back, not a step forward.  The complaining about animation lock really irritates me because people are completely wrong about the nature of it.  If you don't want animation locks because you want an easier and more casual combat experience, then just admit it.  Don't try and play it off like it's an outdated mechanic, it's not.

- I say it as clearly as I feel it: the potion system is what totally breaks this game *for me*. I like to solo, and unless you play Cleric or Rogue with the decoy you just waste away potions. And sorry, I know this is how D&D works, but we don't have 1990. This game need a regular HP regen. Period. Just drop this potion heal system. It is what really prevents me from playing this game, even if everything else was great. I don't like it. It's clumsy, old fashioned, and punishes you for playing a non cleric or non-rogue because you spent TONS more money for potions. It is simply yesterday's game mechanic. It has to go. Guardians, Wizards and GWF have no way to really evade or heal, so you WILL lose HP, and that makes soloing a chore.

 The game is designed for you to use potion... I don't really see the problem.  What else are you spending money on?  Clerics use lots of potions too btw, they are aggro magnets.

 

- The F loot is just needlessly cumbersome. Just let us auto-loot stuff like the money.

Agreed. Or atleast make it an AoE loot so I don't have to hover over the damn thing.

- There is a serious difficulty gap between 10 and 16, when you get your companion. I suggest we should get out first free companion with level 10 or earlier.

Eh, no.  The game isn't that hard.  I think you just might need more practice.  Kinda reminds me of the STO nonsense where everyone bitches about difficulty while anyone with a clue can absolutely demolish the game.

- Alas, the game is too close to the old D&D ideal, that you start SUPER weak. Again, that is yesterday's gameplay. Classes started to feel real with lv 18 or 20, and classes should be cool right away.

Never really noticed it.  Characters seem fine strength wise, unless you just mean being too generic and not having enough skills.

- there are WAAY too few armor, clothing and weapon models. And they look way too primitive, sorry. Nothing to look forward to.

Agreed.

- Wizard, Guardian and GWF especially feel totally hectic. I found myself just button smashing, but that was more or less the case with all classes. I dunno why, but the game makes me feel worn out, like after work, pretty quickly. Combat and controls are just needing a long way to improve.

Slow down and think while your playing.  Don't just smash buttons.  This is a personal problem for a person that isn't adept at action games.  Also it gets better when you have more powers.

- The early on experience is boring. Sorry, it is even for a tutorial bad. You should captivate the players with excitement and coolness, and this... doesn't work. I really would rework the entire first 10 levels. Let the player FEEL good. Somehow give him the feeling to be strong and have some impact, like the tutorial from Champions Online!

It's pretty mediocre.

- Why the heck is there no zoom?

Agreed.  But I suspect it probably has something to do with the heavy dungeon focus and camera angles.

- Neverwinter is no tabletop game. People WILL want to solo, and as it is the game is way too solo unfriendly. Again, the first ten or fifteen levels are just chore, don't feel epic and rewarding, it feels like work. Both the powers and the story experience needs rework. The classes are clearly designed for group play, as a Pen and Paper game, but in a MMO people solo most of the time. It can't be changed. But the design of the classes is NOT for soloing. It just doesn't work. Again, drop the potion idea, add a normal self regen as in EVERY other MMO.

Again, I think you just need to practice.  It isn't that bad at all and it sounds like your just not good at the game.  The potion thing is fine, it's just a mechanic to work within.   

- Monster respawn is WAAAY too high. It's insane! I turn around and BAM all the Orcs are back. I can't explore at all, and it kills any feeling of accomplishment.

It's fine for launch, where low spawn rates can be frustrating.  But I agree that should probably turn it down after the blitz dies down.

 

Neverwinter has the potential to be good and cool, but IMVPO it needs a lot of work yet and the daring to drop some D&D ideologies and become a more modern MMO. This ain't 1990.

On most levels you just seem to want to make it easier and something that suits you personally, that's really doesn't have anything to do with modernization, if anything it's quite the opposite.

 

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4617

3/23/13 8:20:18 PM#9
Originally posted by Draemos
Originally posted by Elikal

 

Pretty much every good arcade combat game has animation lock to some extent.  Look at games like Gods of War and Devil May Cry.  What you like is a half-assed combat system adopted by GW2 and other mediocre combat games.  They don't value timing and position. You're describing a step back, not a step forward.  The complaining about animation lock really irritates me because people are completely wrong about the nature of it.  If you don't want animation locks because you want an easier and more casual combat experience, then just admit it.  Don't try and play it off like it's an outdated mechanic, it's not.

GoW & DMC are your examples of animation lock? I'm very confused. Pausing to mash that button that pops up on screen isn't really animation lock.
  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/23/13 8:24:40 PM#10
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Draemos
 
GoW & DMC are your examples of animation lock? I'm very confused. Pausing to mash that button that pops up on screen isn't really animation lock.

in games like DMC/GoW when you use an ability you are essentially locked into it.. thing is the abilities are very fast and extremely quick transition from skill to movement to skills so its hardly noticable at all. When the transitions are not fast and smooth like the control wizard in this game it sticks out a lot more and is annoying(imho)

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Stromm

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 250

3/23/13 8:35:55 PM#11
Regarding the animation lock. Does your character lose all passive mitigations when cycling an animation? I think SWTOR made that mistake early on. My Sith Warrior couldn't block/dodge while twirling lightsabres cosmetically.
  Soraksis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/12/06
Posts: 270

3/23/13 8:47:51 PM#12
Originally posted by Stromm
Regarding the animation lock. Does your character lose all passive mitigations when cycling an animation? I think SWTOR made that mistake early on. My Sith Warrior couldn't block/dodge while twirling lightsabres cosmetically.

I am not 100% positive but I do not think so.  My trickster rogue has some pretty decent dodge and I can go toe to toe with a group of mobs and come out almost unscathed.  So I would assume admist all my attacks my dodge is working otherwise I would be flattened.  Now as far as block goes I think it does get locked out only because block is an activated skill for the guardians and everyone else has rolls and dashes.  But position matters flanking, and what not negates certain defenses such as passive dodge and I would assume dex bonus as well.  I say this only because I read it as a tool tip during a loading screen. :)   Hope this helps.

 

  tokini

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/03/07
Posts: 344

3/23/13 8:56:40 PM#13
Originally posted by Elikal

 

 

ADDITIONAL NOTES:

 

- The F loot is just needlessly cumbersome. Just let us auto-loot stuff like the money.

- There is a serious difficulty gap between 10 and 16, when you get your companion. I suggest we should get out first free companion with level 10 or earlier.

- Alas, the game is too close to the old D&D ideal, that you start SUPER weak. Again, that is yesterday's gameplay. Classes started to feel real with lv 18 or 20, and classes should be cool right away.

- there are WAAY too few armor, clothing and weapon models. And they look way too primitive, sorry. Nothing to look forward to.

- Wizard, Guardian and GWF especially feel totally hectic. I found myself just button smashing, but that was more or less the case with all classes. I dunno why, but the game makes me feel worn out, like after work, pretty quickly. Combat and controls are just needing a long way to improve.

- The early on experience is boring. Sorry, it is even for a tutorial bad. You should captivate the players with excitement and coolness, and this... doesn't work. I really would rework the entire first 10 levels. Let the player FEEL good. Somehow give him the feeling to be strong and have some impact, like the tutorial from Champions Online!

- Why the heck is there no zoom?

- Neverwinter is no tabletop game. People WILL want to solo, and as it is the game is way too solo unfriendly. Again, the first ten or fifteen levels are just chore, don't feel epic and rewarding, it feels like work. Both the powers and the story experience needs rework. The classes are clearly designed for group play, as a Pen and Paper game, but in a MMO people solo most of the time. It can't be changed. But the design of the classes is NOT for soloing. It just doesn't work. Again, drop the potion idea, add a normal self regen as in EVERY other MMO.

- Monster respawn is WAAAY too high. It's insane! I turn around and BAM all the Orcs are back. I can't explore at all, and it kills any feeling of accomplishment.

 

TL;DR:

Neverwinter has the potential to be good and cool, but IMVPO it needs a lot of work yet and the daring to drop some D&D ideologies and become a more modern MMO. This ain't 1990.

1- yep

2-eh, seems pretty easy so far. i stomped an a quest instance of lvl14 mobs when i was lvl 12, (and tbh im bad at games)

3-playing great weapon fighter, never felt weak

4-while it does seem to be few drops and fairly subdued design, i guess it could be called 'fantasy realistic' design choice, some like, some dont

5-worn out?like it is draining you physically to play o.O

6-chanpions had a good tutorial. i agree, i felt pretty bored the first 6-7 levels, and first impressions being what they are.. - they are smart to force you to level to 15 before you can use the foundry, as many might never leave the first area if they didnt. 

7-yep, outside of 'inspection' mode, its annoying

8-at early levels, i dont see any need to group, cant comment on later lvls. the potions drop constantly, so its not a huge issue to have to use them. the lack of regen is pointless, since they put infinite use campfires in every quest instance. so why not at the least have a /rest command?

9-i agree, but they die fast enough it seems. but the areas i have seen are so closed in you cant take a step without aggroing, and there doesnt seem to be a lot of exploring to do anyway - maybe this changes in higher levels.

 

 

overall it is a mediocre title. not surprising, as Cryptic was building this as a co-op onloine game, not really an mmo, until PW took them over. it plays like a typical hacky slashy co-op game.

 

its free, it isnt the worst game ever made, its decent fun.  if it didnt have the DnD logo, no one woulkd give two shits about it. 

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4617

3/23/13 8:58:33 PM#14
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Draemos
 
GoW & DMC are your examples of animation lock? I'm very confused. Pausing to mash that button that pops up on screen isn't really animation lock.

in games like DMC/GoW when you use an ability you are essentially locked into it.. thing is the abilities are very fast and extremely quick transition from skill to movement to skills so its hardly noticable at all. When the transitions are not fast and smooth like the control wizard in this game it sticks out a lot more and is annoying(imho)

Ya, I know what animation lock is (I do quite a bit of animation), but when it comes to non-MMOs these are probably some of the least severe combat systems when it comes to animation lock. In fact they work on minimizing it as much as possible. There's even forced cancels built into those games, and many of the skills allow for movement as you're using them. To then turn around and belittle GW2's combat animations is basically like praising DMC's combat, and then turning around and saying Bayonetta's was phoned in. Doesn't make much sense.

If anything, there are much better examples of popular games with animation lock (I.E. Demon Souls), though they aren't known for their combat smoothness. (mostly because of the animation locks)

  cybersrs

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/10
Posts: 156

3/23/13 9:02:12 PM#15
Well, the game looks good, but is not for me... I did not like because I can not cast while moving, I do not like to identify items, I do not like to keep changing channels to do instance with people in other channels, there is no zoom in/zoom out and too much instanced.
  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/23/13 9:06:43 PM#16
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Draemos
 
GoW & DMC are your examples of animation lock? I'm very confused. Pausing to mash that button that pops up on screen isn't really animation lock.

in games like DMC/GoW when you use an ability you are essentially locked into it.. thing is the abilities are very fast and extremely quick transition from skill to movement to skills so its hardly noticable at all. When the transitions are not fast and smooth like the control wizard in this game it sticks out a lot more and is annoying(imho)

Ya, I know what animation lock is (I do quite a bit of animation), but when it comes to non-MMOs these are probably some of the least severe combat systems when it comes to animation lock. In fact they work on minimizing it as much as possible. There's even forced cancels built into those games, and many of the skills allow for movement as you're using them. To then turn around and belittle GW2's combat animations is basically like praising DMC's combat, and then turning around and saying Bayonetta's was phoned in. Doesn't make much sense.

If anything, there are much better examples of popular games with animation lock (I.E. Demon Souls), though they aren't known for their combat smoothness. (mostly because of the animation locks)

gw2 has very fast mostly smooth animation transitions which is one of the reasons i enjoy gw2 combat so much.. but yea demon souls is a good example of a heavy animation lock game. Works well in that game imho but for me melee and animation lock is never much of an issue overall.. its range and rooting that it becomes annoying for me.. especially in a game where you are constantly fighting 5+ mobs at a time

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  tokini

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/03/07
Posts: 344

3/23/13 9:13:03 PM#17
  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3048

3/23/13 9:19:30 PM#18
The only negative thing I can say about it is that there isn't enough classes.  I know they're coming and all that, but as it stands right now, unless there's like 10+ classes at least, it's kinda missing out.  The stop combat is because you control wizard and cleric were mega overpowered in pvp.  They just ran around kiting melee.  Melee would get one maybe two hits in, and then they were out of range again.  Overall, for a beta, I like how it is.  It reminds me of DDO to some extent, and  I liked that game too :)
  tokini

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/03/07
Posts: 344

3/23/13 9:31:59 PM#19
Originally posted by Gravarg
The only negative thing I can say about it is that there isn't enough classes.  I know they're coming and all that, but as it stands right now, unless there's like 10+ classes at least, it's kinda missing out.  The stop combat is because you control wizard and cleric were mega overpowered in pvp.  They just ran around kiting melee.  Melee would get one maybe two hits in, and then they were out of range again.  Overall, for a beta, I like how it is.  It reminds me of DDO to some extent, and  I liked that game too :)

thats the problem with trying to shoe horn what is a wholly PVE table top game (DnD classes, worlds, structures) - into the conventions of an mmo. 

  justabloke

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/05
Posts: 9

3/23/13 9:33:47 PM#20

Yeah, what the OP said.

This game might have been cool 10 years ago.

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