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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » [POLL] Tab Targeting vs Action Combat

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306 posts found
  Bossalinie

Novice Member

Joined: 8/29/07
Posts: 631

3/24/13 9:41:49 PM#141
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Bossalinie

Probably because we've been playing the same style of tab target fighting in MMO's for 15+ years and complain that MMO's are too easy.

current MMO aren't hard because they removed the heavy death penalties making you lose your levels, removes the ability to lose your gear when you die, removed corpse runs, removed downtime in favor of zerg, and they made it so everyone can solo from lvl 1

console type gameplay isn't going to fix that, you're simply replacing MMO with console type games

i wouldn't say anything you listed makes a game hard, just tedious.

the only thing in that list that is tedious would be corpse runs maybe

death penalties, bigger raids, forced grouping and gear loss are not related to tediousness

Sorry, but implementing things that piss people off adds nothing to difficulty if you are already 10-15 years experienced at the core gameplay. If you ace the gameplay which was very similar to what you've been doing for the past 10 games, would those things even effect you?

  CalmOceans

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1914

3/24/13 10:09:19 PM#142
Originally posted by Bossalinie

Sorry, but implementing things that piss people off

it pisses you off because corpse runs, death penalties, gear loss etc are mechanics that punish failure

people who like console game MMO tend to dislike anything that makes a game more difficult, any form of travel that punishes mistakes, any form of death penalty, any form of level loss, any form of gear loss and they lose their sense and cry that it's 2013 and want an easier game

I have seen it in Vanguard during beta, non-stop crying about long travel after death, about xp loss, tunil developers caved in, and vanguard wasn't even a hard game compared to early EQ.

You guys claim you want hard games but when push comes to shove most prefer their zerg console spam, erronomously called MMORPG.

 

99% of players who play console MMO would be crying non-stop if they had to run for a day to get their corpse while losing a level, everyone would be crying to GM if they got stuck in a death loop.

You claim you use console gameplay to make a game harder, bs, when it comes down to it, most MMO players tolerate nothing that makes a game difficult anymore.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/24/13 10:13:52 PM#143
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Bossalinie

Sorry, but implementing things that piss people off

it pisses you off because corpse runs, death penalties, gear loss etc are mechanics that punish failure

people who like console game MMO tend to dislike anything that makes a game more difficult, any form of travel that punishes mistakes, any form of death penalty, any form of level loss, any form of gear loss and they lose their sense and cry that it's 2013 and want an easier game

I have seen it in Vanguard during beta, non-stop crying about long travel after death, about xp loss, tunil developers caved in, and vanguard wasn't even a hard game compared to early EQ.

You guys claim you want hard games but when push comes to shove everyone likes their zerg spam.

you still have not explained how these make the game hard and not tedious. You want to make the game harder make the encounters harder make them require more strategy more tactics. You don't need to add things that just make the game less fun to play.

Say i'm in a boss fight and my healer is a moron and dies and we wipe now we have to spend 3 hours grinding crap to get back to the xp we were at. Or say they add more mechanics to the boss fight that require more coordination and require teamwork to complete.. now which is a better way to improve a game?

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  GrayGhost79

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4889

3/24/13 10:15:36 PM#144
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Bossalinie

Sorry, but implementing things that piss people off

it pisses you off because corpse runs, death penalties, gear loss etc are mechanics that punish failure

people who like console game MMO tend to dislike anything that makes a game more difficult, any form of travel that punishes mistakes, any form of death penalty, any form of level loss, any form of gear loss and they lose their sense and cry that it's 2013 and want an easier game

I have seen it in Vanguard during beta, non-stop crying about long travel after death, about xp loss, tunil developers caved in, and vanguard wasn't even a hard game compared to early EQ.

You guys claim you want hard games but when push comes to shove most prefer their zerg console spam, erronomously called MMORPG.

We are still waiting on hard games. Again, what you are talking about doesn't make anything difficult. I tend to attempt and some times exceed at soloing group content. That is difficult. Losing some xp that flows like water or losing some gear thats easily replaced means squat to me. Corpse runs take time, but they aren't difficult. 

Having played early EQ I can say with certainty that the game wasn't hard or difficult. It was time consuming. Time consuming does not equate to difficult or hard. 

Challenging puzzles and AI could be difficult, taking an extra hour to sit there and kill to gain back xp you lost is not difficult lol. 

 

Old Zelda games were far more difficult than EQ could have ever hoped to be lol, EQ however was more time consuming. 

 

  CalmOceans

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1914

3/24/13 10:16:03 PM#145
Originally posted by Aerowyn

you still have not explained how these make the game hard and not tedious. You want to make the game harder make the encounters harder make them require more strategy more tactics. You don't need to add things that just make the game less fun to play.

Say i'm in a boss fight and my healer is a moron and dies and we wipe now we have to spend 3 hours grinding crap to get back to the xp we were at. Or say they add more mechanics to the boss fight that require more coordination and require teamwork to complete.. now which is a better way to improve a game?

Are you trying to justify zerg tactics that don't punish mistakes?

There's a reason EQ had brutal penalties, it was to stop the mindless zergers who discover strategy through continous mistakes, or overpower mobs by rushes.

You should just call your games what they are, they are no longer MMO, they are console zergfests. Vindictus, tera, GW2, they're just solo zergfests and that's why their pop drops after 4 months when people get tired of the lousy community and spamfest combat, they last just as long as many console games.

Tera was barely released and it already had to go F2P.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/24/13 10:21:27 PM#146
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Aerowyn

you still have not explained how these make the game hard and not tedious. You want to make the game harder make the encounters harder make them require more strategy more tactics. You don't need to add things that just make the game less fun to play.

Say i'm in a boss fight and my healer is a moron and dies and we wipe now we have to spend 3 hours grinding crap to get back to the xp we were at. Or say they add more mechanics to the boss fight that require more coordination and require teamwork to complete.. now which is a better way to improve a game?

Are you trying to justify zerg tactics that don't punish mistakes?

i have no clue what your obsession with zergs are.. action games are hardly just zergs. Have you even played a dungeon in tera before? or many of the fractals in gw2? in an action game you can still have the trinity and can still have all the same tactics as a tab targeted game. You can select enemies out of a pack you can do CC pulls ect ect. 

Ill give you one example in one of gw2 fractals you fight a giant golem sitting between two consoles. The consoles are powered by crystals lying all over the ground. An AOE poison will disperse throught the room and kill your team if you do not keep the consoles powered. SO basically you need ot position two people by the consoles to keep them powered(usually 2 ranged so they can dps while keeping them powered) and keeping someone on the golem... stuff like this makes encounters harder and more interesting. Making me loose my sword when I die just adds tedium.

Try mindlessly zerging dungeon bosses in gw2 or tera and see far that gets you...

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  CalmOceans

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1914

3/24/13 10:32:29 PM#147
Originally posted by Aerowyn

Ill give you one example in one of gw2 fractals you fight a giant golem sitting between two consoles. The consoles are powered by crystals lying all over the ground. An AOE poison will disperse throught the room and kill your team if you do not keep the consoles powered. SO basically you need ot position two people by the consoles to keep them powered(usually 2 ranged so they can dps while keeping them powered) and keeping someone on the golem... stuff like this makes encounters harder and more interesting. Making me loose my sword when I die just adds tedium.

Try mindlessly zerging dungeon bosses in gw2 or tera and see far that gets you...

they're the raids that got critiqued by EQ when they talked about WoW, they're the "crystal turns blue, run here" - "lava goes left, player goes right" script raids that WoW made popular

 

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/24/13 10:37:55 PM#148
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Aerowyn

Ill give you one example in one of gw2 fractals you fight a giant golem sitting between two consoles. The consoles are powered by crystals lying all over the ground. An AOE poison will disperse throught the room and kill your team if you do not keep the consoles powered. SO basically you need ot position two people by the consoles to keep them powered(usually 2 ranged so they can dps while keeping them powered) and keeping someone on the golem... stuff like this makes encounters harder and more interesting. Making me loose my sword when I die just adds tedium.

Try mindlessly zerging dungeon bosses in gw2 or tera and see far that gets you...

they're the raids that got critiqued by EQ when they talked about WoW, they're the "crystal turns blue, run here" - "lava goes left, player goes right" script raids that WoW made popular

 

that's the point though you can do all those things in action based games you do in any other MMO. It just requires the developers to design those type of encounters..

only time action is nothing but a mindless zerg is when the player has no clue how to play the game or it's a very badly designed game... there is nothing limiting action games from having just as much(and in some cases) more strategy and tough encounters as any other MMO

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Pivotelite

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/12
Posts: 2195

3/24/13 10:40:24 PM#149
Originally posted by patlefort
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Cirin

There is VERY LITTLE skill in old tab-games (EQ/EQII/WoW/etc..).  Most encounters are either a gear check or just an idiot check or both.  In any situation a small group (45% of the raid usually) can carry the weaker players through skill and gear.  Carrying out the strategy is usually not much of a challenge for anyone with the coordination of a chimpanzee or better.

wow I don't even know where to begin

Let me tell you how raiding in EQ works. The Beast raid to name one, requires 54 players.

...

 It is MUCH more obvious in a game like TERA, it is day and night when you play with skilled players.

 Same gear, different players, the two sets of players are the difference between downing queen in one try without any casualties or spending 5 hours wiping over and over again only to eventually give up and try again another night.

 

That being said, TERA is starting to get pretty easy, the game needs a level cap raise, pronto.

  CalmOceans

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1914

3/24/13 10:49:03 PM#150
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Aerowyn

Ill give you one example in one of gw2 fractals you fight a giant golem sitting between two consoles. The consoles are powered by crystals lying all over the ground. An AOE poison will disperse throught the room and kill your team if you do not keep the consoles powered. SO basically you need ot position two people by the consoles to keep them powered(usually 2 ranged so they can dps while keeping them powered) and keeping someone on the golem... stuff like this makes encounters harder and more interesting. Making me loose my sword when I die just adds tedium.

Try mindlessly zerging dungeon bosses in gw2 or tera and see far that gets you...

they're the raids that got critiqued by EQ when they talked about WoW, they're the "crystal turns blue, run here" - "lava goes left, player goes right" script raids that WoW made popular

 

that's the point though you can do all those things in action based games you do in any other MMO. It just requires the developers to design those type of encounters..

only time action is nothing but a mindless zerg is when the player has no clue how to play the game or it's a very badly designed game... there is nothing limiting action games from having just as much(and in some cases) more strategy and tough encounters as any other MMO

it's not a zerg but it looks like a zerg to many people

you're spamming abilities in those games, you're not in contact with other players are you

in tab raids, especially older ones people were chatting and controlling the mob, we had none of that jumping and "blue eggs turn red, RUN" crap in our games, some raids had scripts but it wasn't like WoW, WoW made every raid into a script raid, in vindictus every mob is running a script and people are button mashing

this is an older EQ raid from Demi, do you see many people moving around doing jumping jacks and spamming their abilities, they're control raids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpEyMeslXfU

to people used to EQ, and I assum FFXI too the current MMO simply look like console games, they're fast paced, very little control or CC, very little preparation, very lenient on mistakes and extremely button skill based

action games also give players unlimited tries, no recovery time, no reason to fear penalties for mistakes, very little time loss, that's why they are called zerg sometimes, because that's what's going on, you make a mistake and rush back in without the punishemnt

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/24/13 10:57:54 PM#151
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Aerowyn

Ill give you one example in one of gw2 fractals you fight a giant golem sitting between two consoles. The consoles are powered by crystals lying all over the ground. An AOE poison will disperse throught the room and kill your team if you do not keep the consoles powered. SO basically you need ot position two people by the consoles to keep them powered(usually 2 ranged so they can dps while keeping them powered) and keeping someone on the golem... stuff like this makes encounters harder and more interesting. Making me loose my sword when I die just adds tedium.

Try mindlessly zerging dungeon bosses in gw2 or tera and see far that gets you...

they're the raids that got critiqued by EQ when they talked about WoW, they're the "crystal turns blue, run here" - "lava goes left, player goes right" script raids that WoW made popular

 

that's the point though you can do all those things in action based games you do in any other MMO. It just requires the developers to design those type of encounters..

only time action is nothing but a mindless zerg is when the player has no clue how to play the game or it's a very badly designed game... there is nothing limiting action games from having just as much(and in some cases) more strategy and tough encounters as any other MMO

it's not a zerg but it looks like a zerg to many people

you're spamming abilities in those games, you're not in contact with other players are you

in tab raids, especially older ones people were chatting and controlling the mob, we had none of that jumping and "blue eggs turn red, RUN" crap in our games, some raids had scripts but it wasn't like WoW, WoW made every raid into a script raid, in vindictus every mob is running a script and people are button mashing

this is an older EQ raid from Demi, do you see many people moving around doing jumping jacks and spamming their abilities, they're control raids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpEyMeslXfU

to people used to EQ, and I assum FFXI too the current MMO simply look like console games, they're fast paced, very little control or CC, very little preparation, very lenient on mistakes and extremely button skill based

that video just proves anything with a large group of people looks like a mass zerg of people spamming abilities... Action MMOs are new and need to evolve but over time they will develop harder are more strategic encounters. But imagine if they did that right off the bat, hardly anyone would play as they would complain the game is to hard and move to something else.. developers will see in time they can make action games with more complex encounters but for now baby steps.

Also on your edit gw2 already fixed this where if you die you can't just spawn and run back in the fight you either need to hope someone finishes the fight ot rez you or the party wipes and you start over(for dungeons at least.. still an issue in WvW).

 

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Bossalinie

Novice Member

Joined: 8/29/07
Posts: 631

3/24/13 11:07:50 PM#152
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Aerowyn

Ill give you one example in one of gw2 fractals you fight a giant golem sitting between two consoles. The consoles are powered by crystals lying all over the ground. An AOE poison will disperse throught the room and kill your team if you do not keep the consoles powered. SO basically you need ot position two people by the consoles to keep them powered(usually 2 ranged so they can dps while keeping them powered) and keeping someone on the golem... stuff like this makes encounters harder and more interesting. Making me loose my sword when I die just adds tedium.

Try mindlessly zerging dungeon bosses in gw2 or tera and see far that gets you...

they're the raids that got critiqued by EQ when they talked about WoW, they're the "crystal turns blue, run here" - "lava goes left, player goes right" script raids that WoW made popular

 

that's the point though you can do all those things in action based games you do in any other MMO. It just requires the developers to design those type of encounters..

only time action is nothing but a mindless zerg is when the player has no clue how to play the game or it's a very badly designed game... there is nothing limiting action games from having just as much(and in some cases) more strategy and tough encounters as any other MMO

it's not a zerg but it looks like a zerg to many people

you're spamming abilities in those games, you're not in contact with other players are you

in tab raids, especially older ones people were chatting and controlling the mob, we had none of that jumping and "blue eggs turn red, RUN" crap in our games, some raids had scripts but it wasn't like WoW, WoW made every raid into a script raid, in vindictus every mob is running a script and people are button mashing

this is an older EQ raid from Demi, do you see many people moving around doing jumping jacks and spamming their abilities, they're control raids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpEyMeslXfU

to people used to EQ, and I assum FFXI too the current MMO simply look like console games, they're fast paced, very little control or CC, very little preparation, very lenient on mistakes and extremely button skill based

action games also give players unlimited tries, no recovery time, no reason to fear penalties for mistakes, very little time loss, that's why they are called zerg sometimes, because that's what's going on, you make a mistake and rush back in without the punishemnt

You are describing modern day MMOs, not Action RPGs. We've seen TONS of tab based gamesover the past few years that gives you exactly what you described, and has nothing to do with action based fights. 

Don't get me wrong, your video doesn't help your case. Just because you are standing still doesn't mean you aren't zerg/spamming the target.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/24/13 11:10:40 PM#153
 

Old Zelda games were far more difficult than EQ could have ever hoped to be lol, EQ however was more time consuming. 

 

This thread is so full of stupid on both sides it should be locked for the good of all MMORPG players.  Just look at general chats, the average MMO player is dumb enough already without reading this kind of crap.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/24/13 11:21:48 PM#154
Originally posted by Aerowyn

that video just proves anything with a large group of people looks like a mass zerg of people spamming abilities... Action MMOs are new and need to evolve but over time they will develop harder are more strategic encounters. But imagine if they did that right off the bat, hardly anyone would play as they would complain the game is to hard and move to something else.. developers will see in time they can make action games with more complex encounters but for now baby steps.

Also on your edit gw2 already fixed this where if you die you can't just spawn and run back in the fight you either need to hope someone finishes the fight ot rez you or the party wipes and you start over(for dungeons at least.. still an issue in WvW).

 

Come on, Aerowyn.  I usually respect your posts but I cant believe you are resorting to the 'action combat is so hard people cant handle it" line of thinking.  Its not like people are quitting TERA or GW2 because they find them difficult.  

I get that people may trash TERA for the lock in place, and people are saying things like GW2 is just button mashing.  but then people say that tab targetting is hitting 1-2-3-4.  It doesnt matter how new or old the system is, people that dont like it will over simplify it to try and prove their point.

People generally dont dislike action combat because its too hard, they just find it annoying or not the right fit for the genre. 

  GrayGhost79

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4889

3/24/13 11:26:46 PM#155
Originally posted by strangiato2112
 

Old Zelda games were far more difficult than EQ could have ever hoped to be lol, EQ however was more time consuming. 

 

This thread is so full of stupid on both sides it should be locked for the good of all MMORPG players.  Just look at general chats, the average MMO player is dumb enough already without reading this kind of crap.

Sorry, having played the original EQ I never found it challenging. It was time consuming like FFXI was and I did enjoy both games. While it did give a sense of accomplishment due to the ammount of time required to accomplish different things it never presented anything I found challenging or even remotely close to challenging. 

Solving puzzles and defeating bosses in old Zelda games was more challenging to me than anything I ever encountered in EQ. 

I'm not sure how that qualifies as "Stupid" but, you're entitled to your opinion. 

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

3/24/13 11:27:07 PM#156
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Aerowyn

that video just proves anything with a large group of people looks like a mass zerg of people spamming abilities... Action MMOs are new and need to evolve but over time they will develop harder are more strategic encounters. But imagine if they did that right off the bat, hardly anyone would play as they would complain the game is to hard and move to something else.. developers will see in time they can make action games with more complex encounters but for now baby steps.

Also on your edit gw2 already fixed this where if you die you can't just spawn and run back in the fight you either need to hope someone finishes the fight ot rez you or the party wipes and you start over(for dungeons at least.. still an issue in WvW).

 

Come on, Aerowyn.  I usually respect your posts but I cant believe you are resorting to the 'action combat is so hard people cant handle it" line of thinking.  Its not like people are quitting TERA or GW2 because they find them difficult.  

I get that people may trash TERA for the lock in place, and people are saying things like GW2 is just button mashing.  but then people say that tab targetting is hitting 1-2-3-4.  It doesnt matter how new or old the system is, people that dont like it will over simplify it to try and prove their point.

People generally dont dislike action combat because its too hard, they just find it annoying or not the right fit for the genre. 

i can name 5 of my own friends who did just that.. they all wen't back to wow and rift because they found gw2 to hard for them.. their words not mine..  not all MMO players play action games or are used to dodge mechanics and such. To some it is a steep learning curve, especially for those used to slower paced MMOs and not action savy people. This was very evident when gw2 first released and running through AC with many pugs for the first time... Running Rifts first dungeon was a breeze even for a group of newbies.. for gw2 it was a pain in the ass till people learned the combat then it became much easier of course.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Grunim

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/01/10
Posts: 103

3/24/13 11:37:10 PM#157
I voted for tab targeting.    I can not play any games for very long that require heavy mousing.  Tab targeting allows me to lay off the mouse often enough that I can play an MMO for hours pain free.   I'm fine with the GW2 blend of tab targeting and action dodging because very little mousing is actually required.
  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/24/13 11:53:28 PM#158
Originally posted by GrayGhost79
Originally posted by strangiato2112
 

Old Zelda games were far more difficult than EQ could have ever hoped to be lol, EQ however was more time consuming. 

 

This thread is so full of stupid on both sides it should be locked for the good of all MMORPG players.  Just look at general chats, the average MMO player is dumb enough already without reading this kind of crap.

Sorry, having played the original EQ I never found it challenging. It was time consuming like FFXI was and I did enjoy both games. While it did give a sense of accomplishment due to the ammount of time required to accomplish different things it never presented anything I found challenging or even remotely close to challenging. 

Solving puzzles and defeating bosses in old Zelda games was more challenging to me than anything I ever encountered in EQ. 

I'm not sure how that qualifies as "Stupid" but, you're entitled to your opinion. 

Which Zelda boss was tougher than the Rathe Council?  The dino?  The big round thing that split into 4 when you whistled?  Or maybe it was the 4 headed dragon

  xalvi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 343

3/24/13 11:56:55 PM#159

Oh comon gtfo with action combat, this is MMO industry. If i wanted that i'd go back to console games aka C.O.D.

 

  Bossalinie

Novice Member

Joined: 8/29/07
Posts: 631

3/25/13 12:02:36 AM#160
Originally posted by xalvi

Oh comon gtfo with action combat, this is MMO industry. If i wanted that i'd go back to console games aka C.O.D.

 

What action mmo plays like COD again?

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