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General Discussion  » Single player game advertising as multiplayer? Not sure how I feel

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64 posts found
  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

 
OP  3/22/13 1:48:39 PM#1

The main story is phased off from friends.

 

 

"How do you tell every player that they’re the saviour of the world in an MMO? It’s a sticky question that many MMOs face, and that few deal with especially well. Tom sat down with game director Matt Firor to find out how Zenimax approach the problem in The Elder Scrolls Online.

“The way we do that in Elder Scrolls Online is there are parts of the game that you just do solo and you just do in a story instance. So the main backbone story of the game, which is your interaction with Molag Bal, one of the Daedric princes, you’re the hero in that story, so you experience that only yourself.

It’s a familiar technique we’ve seen before in Star Wars: The Old Republic, LoTRO and many other MMOs that do their storytelling in carefully choreographed instances. "

 

When you go to other factions after being Level 50, youre in a different phase of it and can only see people of your faction doing the same thing. 

 

I feel like everyone is getting sucked into this "Mega-server" hype feeling like its sandbox and open and it'll be lively -- But when you read and listen, it reminds me exactly of SWTOR -- Which, TANKED HARD compared to expectations. And it sounds like this game is going to make the exact same mistake -- Single player experience when leveling up, and no real end-game to keep you playing. Yes, I know you can quest together besides the Main story, but we keep hearing more and more things phased off.

 

It's a shame because I want to love this game, but dont want to play another game like SWTOR where it feels like you're playing on a dead server because you arent inter-acting with others.

 

I am fully excited for Everquest Next though which is also supposed to come out this year. They're saying its going to be "the largest Sandbox MMORPG ever".

 

Maybe I'm old school. I like grouping up. I like the feeling of "I need you, and you need me" and the feeling of accomplishment upon completing a group task. And with crafting/cyrodill and 4 man dungeons that dont give better gear than crafting, I feel like once I hit max level I'd be done even though they advertise "NO! YOU REALLY ARENT!" 

 

It seems like theyre trying to advertise a Sandbox MMORPG when its the exact opposite -- very restricted, very carebear.

 

I recommend anyone who wants a true sandbox MMO to try Everquest Next when it's out. SOE has everything to lose if they cant nail Everquest Next. Even 100,000 subscribers for two months is probably a win for Zenimax. They're comparing it to the feel of EQ1/EQOA, which were beautiful.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19514

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

3/22/13 2:03:13 PM#2

Well, this title is going to be much more like recent predecessors and likely be more of a standard issue theme park style game, but I have seen posts where some folks seem to see more sandbox behind it than I do.

I agree with your assessement of how the product lifecycle is likely to play out, but no reason to insult people who enjoy these titles with the term "carebear", namecalling only dilutes your position.

It of course has multi-player elements, hence its still a MMO, perhaps even a MMORPG, just not one that perhaps you and I prefer in its design.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
"People can do with their money what they want. But... that doesn't make it smart" - COORS
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  steelwind

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/04/04
Posts: 303

3/22/13 2:09:39 PM#3

I recommend anyone who wants a true sandbox MMO to try Everquest Next when it's out. SOE has everything to lose if they cant nail Everquest Next. Even 100,000 subscribers for two months is probably a win for Zenimax. They're comparing it to the feel of EQ1/EQOA, which were beautiful.

Not sure how that can be said considering no one has seen it or have they described ANYTHING in any detail. In fact some of the comments coming from the team to generate discussion ("we like perma-death") and a couple others just come across as cheap. All hype no substance!

All that being said, I hope it ends up being all that since we need more games like EQN and Archeage as alternate options to everything else out there.

  Tuktz

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 310

3/22/13 2:11:40 PM#4
Thank god it's not sandbox or open world pvp though, that woulda really sucked!


MMO history - EVE GW2 SWTOR RIFT WAR COH/V EQ2 WOW DAOC
Tuktz - http://www.heretic.shivtr.com/

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

 
OP  3/22/13 2:12:18 PM#5
Originally posted by Kyleran

Well, this title is going to be much more like recent predecessors and likely be more of a standard issue theme park style game, but I have seen posts where some folks seem to see more sandbox behind it than I do.

I agree with your assessement of how the product lifecycle is likely to play out, but no reason to insult people who enjoy these titles with the term "carebear", namecalling only dilutes your position.

It of course has multi-player elements, hence its still a MMO, perhaps even a MMORPG, just not one that perhaps you and I prefer in its design.

Carebear isnt an insult to a playerbase, just like "hardcore raider" isnt an insult

 

I just feel like everything we're seeing and listening and being told sounds like SWTOR -- Which is now down to 500k from its 3 million start. And the 3 million was off pure hype alone, heavily advertised as the game to finally kill WoW. And in less than a year 2.5 million people left the game, with probably more to come.

 

No interaction + no end game goals to reach for = no sustained success.

 

But for Zinemax 100,000 subscribers for 3 month might already be a success. Maybe they're okay being a game that has 30,000 subscribers for most its existence, who knows. All I know is there are many reasons I'm excited but I feel like these worries have me, well, more worried than the positives. Mega-server and "all 3 factions!" makes the game sound open but it really isnt. It's like it tries to make sure you arent inter-acting with others except in dungeons and Cyrodill and other games have proved that is a bad business model.

 

i like feeling like I'm a part of the world and helpful. Bash current WoW all you want, I felt involved in Vanilla and BC and I felt involved in early Everquest. I felt like in EQ since a lot of times you grouped to level and quest, that we needed each other. And since servers were alive, it was pretty easy to find a group or find a consistent group of friends.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

 
OP  3/22/13 2:19:40 PM#6
Originally posted by steelwind

I recommend anyone who wants a true sandbox MMO to try Everquest Next when it's out. SOE has everything to lose if they cant nail Everquest Next. Even 100,000 subscribers for two months is probably a win for Zenimax. They're comparing it to the feel of EQ1/EQOA, which were beautiful.

Not sure how that can be said considering no one has seen it or have they described ANYTHING in any detail. In fact some of the comments coming from the team to generate discussion ("we like perma-death") and a couple others just come across as cheap. All hype no substance!

All that being said, I hope it ends up being all that since we need more games like EQN and Archeage as alternate options to everything else out there.

John Smedley tweeted the next day he was kidding about perma-death. Nothing wrong with having fun.

 

And its because they want this game to swoop everyone. They've already pretty much blatantly said the game will come out this year. And what I like as I said, SOE has everything to lose in this. What does Zinemax have to lose? 30,000 subscribers for a lifetime is still good. Bethesda has nothing to lose. Even if this game was the worst MMORPG of all time, everyone would insta-buy the next single player Elder Scrolls.

 

Well, I like that Everquest Next will compete with ESO barring they both stick true to their guns and come out this year. Both games could use the pushing of fresh new MMOs. Although it hasnt been confirmed but it sounds like Everquest Next might be f2p after you buy the retail game.

 

 

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 2:21:24 PM#7
Originally posted by hMJem 

But for Zinemax 100,000 subscribers for 3 month might already be a success. Maybe they're okay being a game that has 30,000 subscribers for most its existence, who knows. All I know is there are many reasons I'm excited but I feel like these worries have me, well, more worried than the positives. Mega-server and "all 3 factions!" makes the game sound open but it really isnt. It's like it tries to make sure you arent inter-acting with others except in dungeons and Cyrodill and other games have proved that is a bad business model.

 You think they would be basing this game on DaoC designs if they werent shooting low? DaoC had around 250k players max and how many other games had invisible walls around factions with 100% funneled content that even included the PvP?!?

Its a design meant to draw a low amount of players with a corporation hoping the IPs fame alone would trick just enough fans of the IP into buying it for enough money to cover the intial costs before the playerbase drops.

  User Deleted
3/22/13 2:22:52 PM#8

MMO devs really need to stop trying to make players the "hero of the story."  It's simply not a good mechanic for MMO games and it needs to stop.

If  you're a player that feels that the game / story should revolve around your actions, you should go back to single player RPG's.

I'm amazed that devs are still going down this road after watching SWTOR crash and burn. 

  steelwind

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/04/04
Posts: 303

3/22/13 2:27:13 PM#9
Well, I like that Everquest Next will compete with ESO barring they both stick true to their guns and come out this year. Both games could use the pushing of fresh new MMOs. Although it hasnt been confirmed but it sounds like Everquest Next might be f2p after you buy the retail game.

I highly doubt they will be competing with eachother since they will attract vastly different playerbases. While I am not planning on playing TESO, to me it just appears as a GW2 clone hence the popular discussion of no raids, hmm what other game has no raids?

In reality EQN will be competing with Repop, Archeage, and Eve.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 4152

3/22/13 2:28:14 PM#10
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by Kyleran

Well, this title is going to be much more like recent predecessors and likely be more of a standard issue theme park style game, but I have seen posts where some folks seem to see more sandbox behind it than I do.

I agree with your assessement of how the product lifecycle is likely to play out, but no reason to insult people who enjoy these titles with the term "carebear", namecalling only dilutes your position.

It of course has multi-player elements, hence its still a MMO, perhaps even a MMORPG, just not one that perhaps you and I prefer in its design.

Carebear isnt an insult to a playerbase, just like "hardcore raider" isnt an insult

 

I just feel like everything we're seeing and listening and being told sounds like SWTOR -- Which is now down to 500k from its 3 million start. And the 3 million was off pure hype alone, heavily advertised as the game to finally kill WoW. And in less than a year 2.5 million people left the game, with probably more to come.

 

No interaction + no end game goals to reach for = no sustained success.

 

But for Zinemax 100,000 subscribers for 3 month might already be a success. Maybe they're okay being a game that has 30,000 subscribers for most its existence, who knows. All I know is there are many reasons I'm excited but I feel like these worries have me, well, more worried than the positives. Mega-server and "all 3 factions!" makes the game sound open but it really isnt. It's like it tries to make sure you arent inter-acting with others except in dungeons and Cyrodill and other games have proved that is a bad business model.

 

i like feeling like I'm a part of the world and helpful. Bash current WoW all you want, I felt involved in Vanilla and BC and I felt involved in early Everquest. I felt like in EQ since a lot of times you grouped to level and quest, that we needed each other. And since servers were alive, it was pretty easy to find a group or find a consistent group of friends.

 The most up-voted CB definition at the Urban Dictionary...just saying

1.  Care Bear 

1. Lightly derogatory term for an MMO player who avoids PVP combat, heavily preferring cooperative or solo PVE combat, chatting, or developing tradeskills/running quests. Depending on the game and the individual, this PVP avoidance can show up in several ways: by playing on strict non-PVP servers; by avoiding PVP areas or declining duels; or, by avoiding or condemning PVP players. Philosophically, they often cite unbalanced combat systems, overpowered guilds, ebayed characters, and ganking as reasons to prefer less aggressive play. The mindset can be self-sustaining in several ways: high-level "care bears" may have avatars that are tailored for PVE, not PVP; they may not network with skilled PVP players; or, they may morally refuse to learn aggressive PVP tactics. As an insult, the term applies less to players who merely prefer PVE to PVP and more to individuals who question the basic legitimacy of PVP or who greatly overreact to their avatars' deaths. Bear in mind that it is strictly incorrect to refer to the victims of heavy exploiters as Care Bears

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 2:28:28 PM#11
Originally posted by fat_taddler

MMO devs really need to stop trying to make players the "hero of the story."  It's simply not a good mechanic for MMO games and it needs to stop.

If  you're a player that feels that the game / story should revolve around your actions, you should go back to single player RPG's.

I'm amazed that devs are still going down this road after watching SWTOR crash and burn. 

 Odd, last time I checked you were the hero of the story in WoW...hell, in most MMOs you are the hero of the story. Its the very heart of an RPG...who the eff whats to be Joe Smoe with a sword and the very heart of many of the MMOs that didnt focus on player = story still made a game where the player CAN become the story via PvP ranking, guilds taking over a keep and claiming it making the leader of that guild well known, political systems and other popularity contests...crafting allowing the crafter to tag his name on his items.

There are so many forms to it one has to ask...was an MMO EVER made that didnt in some way make the player the center?!?

I sure know I would totally buy an MMO that made me seem small and unimportant...heh.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

 
OP  3/22/13 2:30:05 PM#12

Smedley about EQ Next (Which is also at PAX East) :

"Once we made that shift, everything else had to follow. And what we saw was RIFT. We saw the writing on the wall with SWTOR. We saw The Secret World. We saw all these games that we knew were in development and very high-quality, but we saw what was going to happen -- this big spike and then it goes down."

"That's the truth of what's been happening with MMOs. The fans need to realize that if you don't change the nature of what these games are, you're not going to change that core behavior. We want to make games that last more than 15 years. That's why we made the decision to change it," he added.

“Everybody has been making the same game since Everquest, really,” says Smedley. “If you look back, Ultima Online was out before us and really, all the current crop of MMOs are a lot like Everquest – they’re in that style. They’re great because the quality level has really improved, but nobody has really changed the game. the previous designs we had for the next Everquest were cookie-cutter, they were ‘me too’. We had some great, innovative things in there and they’d have been great games in themselves, but they wouldn’t have been enough to keep an audience. We’ve had people playing Everquest for 13 years and we kept that in our mind as the main goal when making Everquest Next.”

Bold words! But, in any case, the game seems to have gone down well with SOE staff at its internal unveiling.

“I was really nervous about [showing SOE staff the game],” says Smedley. “We showed it to them on Monday, and I couldn’t sleep on Sunday night because I was scared. We’ve thrown out two previous designs of the game to go with something pretty crazy and… well, it’s awesome. When the team saw it I could barely breathe when they were watching it. But when I’d finished they were clapping and cheering – and these guys are gamers, so they’re not afraid to call bullshit when they see us make a mistake. It’s happened before. We’ve made mistakes, and the guys internally will call us on it every time. But they loved this, and we really felt vindicated that the way we’re going with Everquest Next is the right way. I feel good about it. We’re not trying to make WOW2 or Everquest 2.5 – we’re making something that we think will define the next generation of MMOs.”

 

 

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 988

3/22/13 2:31:44 PM#13

I grew up playing games like UO and EQ where there was no story at all. In my opinion, I don't care if MMOs add a single player storyline to the game, so long as the multiplayer aspects outside of that story remain intact.

  • Can I group with friends and kill monsters? Check.
  • Can I engage in player versus player combat? Check.
  • Will there be a trade economy? Check.
Everything beyond that is really just gravy for me, but maybe I'm just easy to please.
  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

3/22/13 2:32:36 PM#14
The main storyline is always something I skipped playing TES.  I wonder if it is mandatory in ESO.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

 
OP  3/22/13 2:35:00 PM#15
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by fat_taddler

MMO devs really need to stop trying to make players the "hero of the story."  It's simply not a good mechanic for MMO games and it needs to stop.

If  you're a player that feels that the game / story should revolve around your actions, you should go back to single player RPG's.

I'm amazed that devs are still going down this road after watching SWTOR crash and burn. 

 Odd, last time I checked you were the hero of the story in WoW...hell, in most MMOs you are the hero of the story. Its the very heart of an RPG...who the eff whats to be Joe Smoe with a sword and the very heart of many of the MMOs that didnt focus on player = story still made a game where the player CAN become the story via PvP ranking, guilds taking over a keep and claiming it making the leader of that guild well known, political systems and other popularity contests...crafting allowing the crafter to tag his name on his items.

There are so many forms to it one has to ask...was an MMO EVER made that didnt in some way make the player the center?!?

I sure know I would totally buy an MMO that made me seem small and unimportant...heh.

95% of WoW players didnt read the quests I bet. I don't play MMO's for the best story ever. I have awesome single player games if I want to marvel at graphics and an awesome story. No game has been able to nail awesome story + awesome end game + awesome MMO experience, because to ensure the awesome story experience they shelter you away from players.

 

Most WoW players got to a new zone, spammed all the !'s above NPC's heads, hit accept, and did the quests. The only times I cared a little about story icons and stuff, ironic enough, was in Raids. I thought killing the Lich King was cool.

  buegur

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 460

3/22/13 2:38:20 PM#16

TESO in DaoCs tiny box of limitations. Never really expected different from the makers of DaoC, if you look at CU and now even SWTOR being under controll of another maker of DaoC...it shows just how closed minded a group they were, as closed as the boarders of the games factions and PvP."

 

I'm a bit agassed by that statement! DAoC had more stuff in it than most MMO's made today, so why would anyone claim it to be a tiny box?  It had great PvE, RvR, Housing, dungeons and some  of the better crafting skills.  I never felt it was linear like many MMO's of today.  Most of that is irrelavent to TESO though as the only element they are taking from that game seems to be RvR, and that is a good thing in my opinion.  Most of the other game play features seem more in line with other Elder Scroll games along with a big dosage of GW2.

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 2:47:46 PM#17
Originally posted by hMJem
Originally posted by JasonJ
Originally posted by fat_taddler

MMO devs really need to stop trying to make players the "hero of the story."  It's simply not a good mechanic for MMO games and it needs to stop.

If  you're a player that feels that the game / story should revolve around your actions, you should go back to single player RPG's.

I'm amazed that devs are still going down this road after watching SWTOR crash and burn. 

 Odd, last time I checked you were the hero of the story in WoW...hell, in most MMOs you are the hero of the story. Its the very heart of an RPG...who the eff whats to be Joe Smoe with a sword and the very heart of many of the MMOs that didnt focus on player = story still made a game where the player CAN become the story via PvP ranking, guilds taking over a keep and claiming it making the leader of that guild well known, political systems and other popularity contests...crafting allowing the crafter to tag his name on his items.

There are so many forms to it one has to ask...was an MMO EVER made that didnt in some way make the player the center?!?

I sure know I would totally buy an MMO that made me seem small and unimportant...heh.

95% of WoW players didnt read the quests I bet.

Its true, X isnt X because Y isnt Z

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

 
OP  3/22/13 2:50:45 PM#18
Ask WoW players themselves, ask on their forums if you want proof. If you ask"How many of you have read every quest you ever picked up?" I'd be surprised if you got 1 person to post "I have indeed read every single quest among hundreds and thousands I've picked up"
  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

3/22/13 2:56:13 PM#19

I dont need PROOF it has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

If the story revolves around the player, it does it even if NOT ONE PERSON EVER READS IT. And THAT is why you pose questions like "if 1st person is OK so is raids" as if they are equal.

  hMJem

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 468

 
OP  3/22/13 3:05:14 PM#20

You see, the difference is WoW doesnt try to protect you from harms way of any human inter-action when doing questing, if that is your argument. If a tree falls in the forest, does anybody hear it? I've played hundreds of hours of Halo multiplayer games. I cant tell you the story besides "good guys vs bad guys" because I dont care what happens, I play Halo for multiplayer. I play MMO's for MMO experiences with other players, not by myself. And this game is already confirmed to phase you by yourself during the main story, and phases you with only your faction when you are doing the 50+ content in other factions.

 

And WoW has never really focused on you doing the hero. "My young lad, kill 10 of these darndest-rats for me, and return when you do for I will give you a worthwhile reward!" that isnt a story.

 

Your basic story of WoW: Kill the utra mega bad guy. There isnt character growth, there isnt direct things happening to your character.

 

The problem? "Well I'd love a great story in my MMO though" You can hardly call this an MMO. Phasing dungeons, phasing main story questing, phasing 50+ content. That isnt "open world exploration" and player inter-action.

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