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General Discussion  » There are no raids... can you live with that?

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549 posts found
  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

4/02/13 3:00:27 AM#521
Originally posted by Livnthedream
Originally posted by kadepsyson

I'd prefer a more organic approach to character growth and advancement, instead of having some huge musclebound character being unable to ever lift a sword because of a button pushed in character creation.  It's actually extremely silly when you think about it.

That depends entirely on the nature and design of the game itself. Its rather clear that you lean toward the "virtual world" end of the spectrum, which is fine if that is your choice, but calling all games garbage that do not appeal to your demographic is insulting. I am more than willing to sacrifice the muscle bound character not being able to weild a sword for things like solid balance. I prefer a solid competitive game over a virtual world. Unfortunately for you, the market seems to agree with me.

I wasn't aware that I called all those games garbage, and I had no idea I was speaking for a demographic.  I thought I made it fairly clear that it was my own personal desires and opinions I was expressing.  I have plenty of games to play regardless.  I do find it odd you feel a game would be hard to balance unless they have the age old class mechanics.

 

So I guess the only thing I find reasonable in your reply is that the games do indeed need to be based around a classless system in order for it to work well.  That's kind of a no brainer though.

 

Sorry for insulting you by saying things that I didn't say.  I'll try not to say things that I don't say and wont' say in the future, or something.  Whatever you need.

El Psy Congroo

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

4/02/13 3:06:05 AM#522
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by kadepsyson

Raids are one of the worst game design decisions an MMO can have.  I do not want a gear treadmill to keep me playing your game, I want fun and variety to keep me coming back.  In fact, levels, raids, paid expansions, the entire "best in slot" failure, and classes are some of my most disliked things an MMORPG can have.  They're tired and lazy designs that often eliminate fun in an attempt to grab cash.

Raids =/= gear treadmill. You can have raids and not make it a gear treadmill.

You can try, at least. 

But most of the raiders won't come if you do that.  And if nobody's doing the raids that are there... do you really have raids at all?  Or is it just dormant code....

  kadepsyson

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

4/02/13 3:09:36 AM#523
Originally posted by KaosProphet
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by kadepsyson

Raids are one of the worst game design decisions an MMO can have.  I do not want a gear treadmill to keep me playing your game, I want fun and variety to keep me coming back.  In fact, levels, raids, paid expansions, the entire "best in slot" failure, and classes are some of my most disliked things an MMORPG can have.  They're tired and lazy designs that often eliminate fun in an attempt to grab cash.

Raids =/= gear treadmill. You can have raids and not make it a gear treadmill.

You can try, at least. 

But most of the raiders won't come if you do that.  And if nobody's doing the raids that are there... do you really have raids at all?  Or is it just dormant code....

Look at previous raids in established MMOs.  An expansion comes out with a higher level cap, and new dungeons to raid.  Are people flocking to the old original raids?  No, because the gear there is now subpar.  The entire reason for repeating them is lost.  So a raid without a gear incentive is pretty much laughable.  I mean, sure it's possible to have one.  Just an extremely poor use of development time.

El Psy Congroo

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

4/02/13 6:31:52 AM#524
Originally posted by observer
Originally posted by sapphen
If they added raids, I would prefer they waited a few months after release.  Take their time with it, see who their playerbase is and what they want.

That would be a terrible way to do this.  It should be implemented from the beginning, or never put in, or else it risks alienating a target playerbase, that will

A.) never try their game

B.) will move on and never look back

If the game had old-school time-to-levels, it wouldn't really matter:  it would take at least 3-6 months before even the hardcores were ready for the 'end game content.'  (Not that this would necessarily stop them from bitching about it not being there from the start, but still...)

Unfortunately, it won't.  The current generation talks about taking just over a month to level-cap in (vanilla) WoW as though that was a long time...

  Sentnl

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/13
Posts: 79

4/02/13 7:37:59 AM#525
Originally posted by KaosProphet
Originally posted by observer
Originally posted by sapphen
If they added raids, I would prefer they waited a few months after release.  Take their time with it, see who their playerbase is and what they want.

That would be a terrible way to do this.  It should be implemented from the beginning, or never put in, or else it risks alienating a target playerbase, that will

A.) never try their game

B.) will move on and never look back

If the game had old-school time-to-levels, it wouldn't really matter:  it would take at least 3-6 months before even the hardcores were ready for the 'end game content.'  (Not that this would necessarily stop them from bitching about it not being there from the start, but still...)

Unfortunately, it won't.  The current generation talks about taking just over a month to level-cap in (vanilla) WoW as though that was a long time...

Even vanilla wow did it right though.

There was a fun levelling experience with open world pvp, and then end game was going after Onyxia 8 hours a day in greens and a few blues. Then Getting people attuned to MC, which was beyond ridiculous for the guilds who stepped into it early. the days when T1 still had placeholder graphics.

It worked, it was stupid hard... then slowly and then quickly, the game became next level retard easy.

~~

You don't need long dungeons with trash.

A game can get away with only having complex, super hard boss mobs.

Throw a Vaelastrasz difficulty boss into Cryodiil somewhere in the open world, a Krayt dragon type mob. Something with crazy HP, difficult mechanics, something that will wipe you if you dont pay attention to every detail.

A boss that wont be killed for several months...

I sometimes play under the alias "Exposed". Don't tell anybody.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3398

 
OP  4/02/13 9:25:30 AM#526
Originally posted by Sentnl
Originally posted by KaosProphet
Originally posted by observer
Originally posted by sapphen
If they added raids, I would prefer they waited a few months after release.  Take their time with it, see who their playerbase is and what they want.

That would be a terrible way to do this.  It should be implemented from the beginning, or never put in, or else it risks alienating a target playerbase, that will

A.) never try their game

B.) will move on and never look back

If the game had old-school time-to-levels, it wouldn't really matter:  it would take at least 3-6 months before even the hardcores were ready for the 'end game content.'  (Not that this would necessarily stop them from bitching about it not being there from the start, but still...)

Unfortunately, it won't.  The current generation talks about taking just over a month to level-cap in (vanilla) WoW as though that was a long time...

Even vanilla wow did it right though.

There was a fun levelling experience with open world pvp, and then end game was going after Onyxia 8 hours a day in greens and a few blues. Then Getting people attuned to MC, which was beyond ridiculous for the guilds who stepped into it early. the days when T1 still had placeholder graphics.

It worked, it was stupid hard... then slowly and then quickly, the game became next level retard easy.

~~

You don't need long dungeons with trash.

A game can get away with only having complex, super hard boss mobs.

Throw a Vaelastrasz difficulty boss into Cryodiil somewhere in the open world, a Krayt dragon type mob. Something with crazy HP, difficult mechanics, something that will wipe you if you dont pay attention to every detail.

A boss that wont be killed for several months...

I think that kinda content is long past our gaming days. People used to live to game and forget about real life. People can only do that for so long.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17085

4/02/13 9:44:30 AM#527
Originally posted by Neherun
 

And how many would do raids if gear was subpar to say crafted gear?

 

It doesn't have to be subpar.

In linege 2 there was just "gear".  Drops were exceptionally rare, It took time to make and the only other way to get it was to raid. The Raid bosses that dropped the gear, for the most part, took a large group.

Since part of improving your gear was to enchant it, people woudl spend a lot of effort enchanting. however, past a certain part, there was a chance you would break the gear and only get a small return in crystals which you could then put toward crafting gear.

Therefore, gear was being created and constantly removed from the world. RAiding help subsidize clans.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3771

4/02/13 10:51:07 AM#528

What everyone--raiders and non-raiders alike--really want is appropriate reward for effort, fun things to do, accessible content and bragging rights. 

You can get all of that in many different ways. Raids are just one high level activity with a higher degree of difficulty. WOW-style raids are just one way to do that and so is their reward system. But there are many other ways.

In WOW, raids are just the logical group activity to have at end-game. They are bigger, longer, badder "dungeon" instances, not unlike all the instances you have been progressing through right from level 15 or so as the main group activity. They do have a separate short-scenario PvP progression, but that has always been a secondary thing there and that particular end-game content (Wintergrasp, Told Barad) is pretty limited in time commitment required compared to their more prestigious end-game activities, raids. The bulk of their effort and content creation centers around PvE instances and especially raids.

That's not the case here. This whole game is designed from the ground up to be about RvR. It's logical that the main end-game progression activity here be different than WOWs and it is. That's not to say that PvE should be neglected and it won't. But this game will live or die based on how robust and rewarding RvR is and that's where the main focus is or should be. To expect raids of the same quality, length and complexity here is just as much a pipe dream as expecting a robust end-game RvR system in WOW. It just ain't going to happen.

You can like it or not, but that's the way it is. The best rewards, the most fun, and coolest things to brag about should all come from RvR.

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

4/02/13 12:32:30 PM#529
Originally posted by Iselin

What everyone--raiders and non-raiders alike--really want is appropriate reward for effort, fun things to do, accessible content and bragging rights. 

You can get all of that in many different ways. Raids are just one high level activity with a higher degree of difficulty. WOW-style raids are just one way to do that and so is their reward system. But there are many other ways.

In WOW, raids are just the logical group activity to have at end-game. They are bigger, longer, badder "dungeon" instances, not unlike all the instances you have been progressing through right from level 15 or so as the main group activity. They do have a separate short-scenario PvP progression, but that has always been a secondary thing there and that particular end-game content (Wintergrasp, Told Barad) is pretty limited in time commitment required compared to their more prestigious end-game activities, raids. The bulk of their effort and content creation centers around PvE instances and especially raids.

That's not the case here. This whole game is designed from the ground up to be about RvR. It's logical that the main end-game progression activity here be different than WOWs and it is. That's not to say that PvE should be neglected and it won't. But this game will live or die based on how robust and rewarding RvR is and that's where the main focus is or should be. To expect raids of the same quality, length and complexity here is just as much a pipe dream as expecting a robust end-game RvR system in WOW. It just ain't going to happen.

You can like it or not, but that's the way it is. The best rewards, the most fun, and coolest things to brag about should all come from RvR.

Your forum avatar being one of my top 3 favorite literary characters of all time has already endeared you to me. You don't need to keep pushing the limit of that endearment by posting such logical and well thought out posts. But, since you insist on doing just that, I simply must take the time to point out how correct you are in your statements above. (Holy crap, I'm channeling Caliburn's writing style.)

*Cough* Yeah, dude, I agree. Appropriate rewards for the effort is exactly what we're looking for, and, the game being based on RvR, it's apparent to me that that's where much of the end game's cool stuff should come from.

  Thorteris

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/13
Posts: 1

4/02/13 6:34:40 PM#530
Dang ummm.....well guess I have to wait till another MMO comes out....*sigh*. Rift and WoW for a few more years.
  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

4/02/13 9:04:27 PM#531
Originally posted by Thorteris
Dang ummm.....well guess I have to wait till another MMO comes out....*sigh*. Rift and WoW for a few more years.

Wildstar is where you should be looking.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  Madamefate

Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 183

4/02/13 9:07:31 PM#532
Isn't a multiplayer TES what people wanted any way?
  Livnthedream

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 582

I like this planet, YOU get off!

4/02/13 9:21:01 PM#533
Originally posted by Madamefate
Isn't a multiplayer TES what people wanted any way?

Arguably. The  problem being many of those "integrel" TES mechanics do not translate to a multiplayer game. Add onto that the game is meant to appeal to "mmo" players aswell as TES fans, many of which consider raiding to be rather prominant, and has been since mmo infancy.

http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/

Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!

  KaosProphet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 384

4/03/13 2:34:21 AM#534
Originally posted by Sentnl
Originally posted by KaosProphet
Originally posted by observer
Originally posted by sapphen
If they added raids, I would prefer they waited a few months after release.  Take their time with it, see who their playerbase is and what they want.

That would be a terrible way to do this.  It should be implemented from the beginning, or never put in, or else it risks alienating a target playerbase, that will

A.) never try their game

B.) will move on and never look back

If the game had old-school time-to-levels, it wouldn't really matter:  it would take at least 3-6 months before even the hardcores were ready for the 'end game content.'  (Not that this would necessarily stop them from bitching about it not being there from the start, but still...)

Unfortunately, it won't.  The current generation talks about taking just over a month to level-cap in (vanilla) WoW as though that was a long time...

Even vanilla wow did it right though.

There was a fun levelling experience with open world pvp, and then end game was going after Onyxia 8 hours a day in greens and a few blues. Then Getting people attuned to MC, which was beyond ridiculous for the guilds who stepped into it early. the days when T1 still had placeholder graphics.

It worked, it was stupid hard... then slowly and then quickly, the game became next level retard easy.

~~

You don't need long dungeons with trash.

A game can get away with only having complex, super hard boss mobs.

I'm not so sure it can, really.  Hardcore raiders who live for that kinda thing are close to being as niche as the hardcore PvPers who want their FFA with full-loot.  The more casual raiders are going to walk away in frustration if that's all you got; after all, it's not like there's a shortage of other places they can go.  (Unlike the hardcore PvPers, who've got... what, Darkfall and Eve?)

You either need *something* for the rest of the population, or you need to accept that you've just designed a niche game and budget accordingly.

  Sentnl

Novice Member

Joined: 3/07/13
Posts: 79

4/03/13 3:09:21 AM#535
Originally posted by KaosProphet

I'm not so sure it can, really.  Hardcore raiders who live for that kinda thing are close to being as niche as the hardcore PvPers who want their FFA with full-loot.  The more casual raiders are going to walk away in frustration if that's all you got; after all, it's not like there's a shortage of other places they can go.  (Unlike the hardcore PvPers, who've got... what, Darkfall and Eve?)

You either need *something* for the rest of the population, or you need to accept that you've just designed a niche game and budget accordingly.

Wow, you dont think outside the box do you.

Just because there would be Vael type bosses, doesn't mean there couldn't be the average Hogger here and there. It's all about variety, just like all those good raiding games had, they had easier bosses, and really tough bosses.

I just think Cryodiil would be fun with a boss on the harder end of the scale in it. But I'm sure Zenimax is all over it.

Darkfall is terrible, fantasy "fps", where people fight naked because they dont want to lose their gear.

Also, tired of people calling eve this amazing pvp game, because that's not what it is primarily, you clearly haven't played it.

I sometimes play under the alias "Exposed". Don't tell anybody.

  User Deleted
4/03/13 3:39:59 AM#536
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Neherun
 

And how many would do raids if gear was subpar to say crafted gear?

 

It doesn't have to be subpar.

In linege 2 there was just "gear".  Drops were exceptionally rare, It took time to make and the only other way to get it was to raid. The Raid bosses that dropped the gear, for the most part, took a large group.

Since part of improving your gear was to enchant it, people woudl spend a lot of effort enchanting. however, past a certain part, there was a chance you would break the gear and only get a small return in crystals which you could then put toward crafting gear.

Therefore, gear was being created and constantly removed from the world. RAiding help subsidize clans.

Aye, term "raid gear" really needs to make dissapearance. Theres just gear, EQ and WoW went the route to put uber gear only in raids and in turn designed next tier to require that gear and so the treadmill.

1. In L2 there was just gear. Materials and patterns were all tradeble (as gear itself) and theoretically you didnt have to raid at all, raiding was a shortcut of a sort.

2. even those lowbie materials could be used in crafting so every material that dropped anywhere in the game was useful.

3. since the gear broke at failed enchant attempt no gear you got from drops/crafted was useless since you could always sell it as a last resort (but rarely happened anyway)

4. Raids in L2 were all open world and you could go with any number of people so gear itself wasnt that important unless you tried to do them with least people possible (which rarely happend to me anyway) L2 was focused on clans and pretty much everything you did (that mattered anyway) required clan effort. Even as far as alliance effort. Of course, gear helped, but ther was no requirement to have everyone in top tier gear to do it.

5. L2 was pretty much similar to EvE in that respect, and generally had very little to do with EQ/WoW anyways so it catered to completely different audience than those games.

  Ianb4all

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/10
Posts: 61

2/21/14 1:35:11 PM#537
After reading that there will be no raids...I wont be buying this game anymore- got GW2 and got to lvl 80- got good dungeon gear  and then stopped playing out of boredom...not been back in months even though they release a few open events - removing raiding will loose you thousands and thousands of potential players like myself who enjoy all aspects of a mmo including the raiding! - especially if I have to pay a monthly subscription fee...I would like to think that there would be raiding then to keep me occupied after playing and level a few chars to max after a few months.
  Mpfive

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/25/13
Posts: 267

2/21/14 1:37:42 PM#538
There will be raids,  open world raids:)
  Ianb4all

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/10
Posts: 61

2/21/14 1:38:47 PM#539
Originally posted by Mpfive
There will be raids,  open world raids:)

Same sort of things then like Guild wars 2 has- that's not raiding at all..... :(

Thats more like Zerging open world bosses - not raiding!!!!

  arieste

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3308

2/21/14 1:43:57 PM#540

Can i live without raids?  Yes.   For a long time?  Probably not.   

 

I'm not a PvP'er, so for me the main challenge of a game lies in the teamwork and cooperation that's involved in group PVE.  When group PvE is limited to no more than 4 people, i think it's highly likely that the game will run out of challenge pretty fast.  Is it possible that it won't?  Sure, it's possible and i'm going to pay and hope for that.    

 

I have a lot of experience in playing MMOs and a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't.  ESO is not SO different from other MMOs that it can achieve something that other games haven't.   So I don't think that keeping it to 4 people max will result in great long term PvE endgame.   

 

That being said, there ARE raids in ESO at least in the way i define raids - that is "PvE content designed for more than 1 group of players".   So those things give me hope and I look forward to checking them out.  

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

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