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General Discussion  » There are no raids... can you live with that?

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549 posts found
  nerovipus32

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2716

3/27/13 11:34:33 AM#361
Originally posted by morbidlymystic
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Hahaha what? The MINORITY of WoW players do the raids. It's the casual PvE players that keep the game floating. WoW has always been a casual MMO. Even its raiding is some of the most casual raiding in the market. WoW raids, compared to games like EQ and DAoC, are really REALLY weak.

Completley false,  The vast majority of the wow playerbase does raiding of some kind.

 

Originally posted by nerovipus32

The reason why wow is so successful has nothing to do with raiding, the reason why WOW is so successful is 1. blizzard have an amazing marketing department... and 2. it's a blizzard game. look at diablo 3 it sold 12 million copies and it's nothing special.

None of those reasons would make up for a shit game.  Get real...

WOW is shit in my opinion....

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1910

3/27/13 11:37:08 AM#362
Originally posted by morbidlymystic
Originally posted by Vorthanion

There is nothing pointless about defending a design decision by the developers that creates a game that fits your play style.  If you want to point fingers and call someone pointless, then point them at the raid fanatics who immediately react with disbelief and anger that a MMO has the audacity to not cater to them.

Adventure zones dude.  They have clearly said numerous times that they are making the game with hardcore players in mind as well.

 

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Really? Is that why the MMO with the longest upward growth of any MMo on the market, as well as second highest sub rate in the west, is primarily a PvP sandbox game? (Eve)

I don't know why in the hell people play EvE.  The game sucks donkey balls.

I like how everyone throws that outlier as proof though...

A zone for hardcore gamers does not equate to a raid zone.  You do know that there are hardcore soloers and small groupers?  You do know that there are plenty of people who can only play a few hours per week, but when they do play, they play hardcore, but not necessarily by raiding?  When they talk about adventure zones, what I picture is content like exploration mode dungeons in GW2 and epic quests from EverQuest.  Content that requires a group and is specifically made to be much more challenging than your typical group content.

  Destai

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/09
Posts: 487

3/27/13 11:40:19 AM#363
They're limiting their player base with this one. Players expect a certain model - level up, do dungeons, raids, wait for next expansion. This model has been exercised by most of the major titles for the past 15 years and has been tied in with the subscription model. Games recently have abandoned heavy raid content and launch with subscription. Of course, this model isn't working as we see games failing and then changing their model to better fit their content. If ESO launches with a subscription model, it will fail. They should have the sense to either launch with heavy raid content to justify a fee, or launch buy to play/ free to play to accomodate the fluctuating player levels and maintain profits.

Current MMOs: Wildstar, Guild Wars 2, the Secret World, World of Warcraft

Past Loves: Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online, Everquest

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1910

3/27/13 11:40:21 AM#364
Originally posted by morbidlymystic
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Hahaha what? The MINORITY of WoW players do the raids. It's the casual PvE players that keep the game floating. WoW has always been a casual MMO. Even its raiding is some of the most casual raiding in the market. WoW raids, compared to games like EQ and DAoC, are really REALLY weak.

Completley false,  The vast majority of the wow playerbase does raiding of some kind.

 

Originally posted by nerovipus32

The reason why wow is so successful has nothing to do with raiding, the reason why WOW is so successful is 1. blizzard have an amazing marketing department... and 2. it's a blizzard game. look at diablo 3 it sold 12 million copies and it's nothing special.

None of those reasons would make up for a shit game.  Get real...

I'm sorry, do you have data to prove otherwise?  I'll take info given at a Blizzcon over a blanket statement from joe schmoe on MMORPG.com

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1910

3/27/13 11:42:14 AM#365
Originally posted by Destai
They're limiting their player base with this one. Players expect a certain model - level up, do dungeons, raids, wait for next expansion. This model has been exercised by most of the major titles for the past 15 years and has been tied in with the subscription model. Games recently have abandoned heavy raid content and launch with subscription. Of course, this model isn't working as we see games failing and then changing their model to better fit their content. If ESO launches with a subscription model, it will fail. They should have the sense to either launch with heavy raid content to justify a fee, or launch buy to play/ free to play to accomodate the fluctuating player levels and maintain profits.

None of the recent games that have failed  or didn't perform as well as they should have were due to lack of raid content and you know it.  They failed because they were shoddy from the get go.

  nerovipus32

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2716

3/27/13 11:45:09 AM#366
Originally posted by morbidlymystic
Originally posted by nerovipus32

WOW is shit in my opinion....

Thus, your opinionis bad.  The market has spoken, and no other MMO has ever come close to its level of success. 

 

PS:  I like how you extrapolated the reasons for WoW's success, but don't like it.  lol, that makes sense.

Well im not so arrogant  to think if i don't like something it won't be successful, lots of things are successful that i don't like. My opinion is my opinion and to me that is all that matters, my opinion also controls my wallet.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17116

3/27/13 11:47:59 AM#367

Not that I'm a "raider" or would want to repeat raids ad nauseum, but I don't see why there couldn't be raids that fit into the lore.

Not that we want "another Oblvion Crisis" but an example of a raid could be an oblvion gate. Go up it and take on one of several daedra lords at the end of a battle up the tower.

Or have an old dwemer ruin that is more than a ruin and the machines inside keep replenishing themselves due to some sort of dwemer plan for an impenetrable fortress.

Or any number of things that "make sense". Maybe raiding in ESO doesn't take place all the time but there are raiding opportunites due to special events.

In any case, just a thought.

  nerovipus32

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2716

3/27/13 11:48:18 AM#368
Originally posted by morbidlymystic
Originally posted by Vorthanion

I'm sorry, do you have data to prove otherwise?  I'll take info given at a Blizzcon over a blanket statement from joe schmoe on MMORPG.com

What info?  The info about AQ40 from like a freaking decade ago?  The game has seen a few chances since granpa was playing.

Tthat info was about people at that level of progression, of which I was one.  Sure, only a small % was at that point in the game, but there were a lot more raiding.  As time passed the raids became more open, and blizz population increased as well.  Nowadays anyone, absolutely anyone can walk into Looking For Raid and kill bosses.

 

Finally, WoW doesn't publish #s as far as I know, but its pretty obvious to anyone who actually plays that most people do some kind of raiding.

 

Originally posted by nerovipus32

Well im not so arrogant  to think if i don't like something it won't be successful, lots of things are successful that i don't like. My opinion is my opinion and to me that is all that matters, my opinion also controls my wallet.

No you are so arrogant that you critique things you don't understand.

It still doesn't change the fact that TESO won't have raids :)

  nerovipus32

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2716

3/27/13 11:50:41 AM#369
Originally posted by Sovrath

Not that I'm a "raider" or would want to repeat raids ad nauseum, but I don't see why there couldn't be raids that fit into the lore.

Not that we want "another Oblvion Crisis" but an example of a raid could be an oblvion gate. Go up it and take on one of several daedra lords at the end of a battle up the tower.

Or have an old dwemer ruin that is more than a ruin and the machines inside keep replenishing themselves due to some sort of dwemer plan for an impenetrable fortress.

Or any number of things that "make sense". Maybe raiding in ESO doesn't take place all the time but there are raiding opportunites due to special events.

In any case, just a thought.

Because once you start the threadmill you can't stop it, and in the end the game will be focused on raiding and all other features of the game will be afterthoughts that recieve less updates.

  Destai

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/09
Posts: 487

3/27/13 11:50:42 AM#370
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by Destai
They're limiting their player base with this one. Players expect a certain model - level up, do dungeons, raids, wait for next expansion. This model has been exercised by most of the major titles for the past 15 years and has been tied in with the subscription model. Games recently have abandoned heavy raid content and launch with subscription. Of course, this model isn't working as we see games failing and then changing their model to better fit their content. If ESO launches with a subscription model, it will fail. They should have the sense to either launch with heavy raid content to justify a fee, or launch buy to play/ free to play to accomodate the fluctuating player levels and maintain profits.

None of the recent games that have failed  or didn't perform as well as they should have were due to lack of raid content and you know it.  They failed because they were shoddy from the get go.

Quality is a definitely a factor in their failure. So is lack of content. It might be anecdotal, but I've known many people who've went to other games, only to leave after getting to max because of the aforementioned raid absence. It's not the only factor contributing to the trends we've seen, but it's not helping these companies and their games. Take Rift as an example. They're the only one to maintain a subscription and they offer a wealth of raid content. It's not the best game in the world, it's the most original. But it offers content beyond max level. Next, take SWTOR. It launched with little raid content and bombed. The common complaint was seen when players spoke of the enjoyable leveling but lack of endgame. 

Quantity can make up for quality. ESO has to be a good game though. The market is a lot different now, players are far more fickle. 

Current MMOs: Wildstar, Guild Wars 2, the Secret World, World of Warcraft

Past Loves: Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online, Everquest

  nerovipus32

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2716

3/27/13 11:51:18 AM#371
Originally posted by morbidlymystic

It still doesn't change the fact that TESO won't have raids :)

Except it will via the adventure zones...

So why are you complaining then?

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1910

3/27/13 11:51:23 AM#372
Originally posted by morbidlymystic

It still doesn't change the fact that TESO won't have raids :)

Except it will via the adventure zones...

Your assumption.  They have not said they would be raid zones and the name itself lends to a completely different picture in my mind.

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1910

3/27/13 11:55:29 AM#373
Originally posted by morbidlymystic
Originally posted by rygard49

You said it yourself... Crafting, doing quests, story and exploring doesn't keep players playing for years. What does? Repeatable content with increasing rewards, i.e. PvP, or progression PvE (also house management, but I think only a small percentage would find that worthy of years of their time).

PvE progression doesn't have to be pigeon holed into just raiding. Small group dungeons, the 50+ and 50++ zones, and the adventure zones will all have that progression. Not only that, but it has been said that there are raid style encounters within the adventure zones for large groups to battle and be rewarded from. The idea is that you can go in with a small group and complete much of the content, but if you can get the manpower you can trigger those bigger bosses to spawn and get better rewards.

 

You're quoting another gamer.  I have yet to see an interview from any of the developers that states there are raids in adventure zones.  I have heard them say the content would be hardcore, but that does not mean raids.  GW2 had hardcore dungeons, but they aren't raid style and TESO is pulling a lot from GW2.

  Panzerbase

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 431

3/27/13 11:55:32 AM#374
Thanks but no thanks, I'll leave this game to the FTP kids who will jump ship when the next FOTM game comes along. The outside seems like ESO but we're now finnally seeing the game for what it will become, just another failed MMO in a crowded market.
  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5209

3/27/13 11:56:24 AM#375
Find it hard to believe that there is no PVE end game in ESO, but if that is actually the case then there will never be any point in my even trying the game, so i guess its good information to have.
  nerovipus32

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2716

3/27/13 11:58:37 AM#376
Originally posted by morbidlymystic
Originally posted by nerovipus32

So why are you complaining then?

Because I hate crybaby casuals who stereotype all raiders as elitist jerks.

 

Hoping this game doesn't have end game pve progresssion content is the same as hoping it fails.  That annoys me too.

Yet you are doing nothing to change that stereotype, thanks for the laugh.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17116

3/27/13 12:07:20 PM#377
Originally posted by nerovipus32
Originally posted by Sovrath

Not that I'm a "raider" or would want to repeat raids ad nauseum, but I don't see why there couldn't be raids that fit into the lore.

Not that we want "another Oblvion Crisis" but an example of a raid could be an oblvion gate. Go up it and take on one of several daedra lords at the end of a battle up the tower.

Or have an old dwemer ruin that is more than a ruin and the machines inside keep replenishing themselves due to some sort of dwemer plan for an impenetrable fortress.

Or any number of things that "make sense". Maybe raiding in ESO doesn't take place all the time but there are raiding opportunites due to special events.

In any case, just a thought.

Because once you start the threadmill you can't stop it, and in the end the game will be focused on raiding and all other features of the game will be afterthoughts that recieve less updates.

I think that's jumping the gun a bit.

Also, it doesn't have to be "gear treadmill". The best gear in Lineage 2 was made from craftting, sometimes a rare drop and from raids. Since gear was difficult to make any of those options could work. Sometimes guilds would raid because their crafters couldn't keep up and sometimes the raids wouldn't work but at least they had their crafters.

The assumption here is that raids have to be "a certain way".

and that's not necessarily so.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2519

3/27/13 12:08:14 PM#378
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by morbidlymystic
Originally posted by Vorthanion

There is nothing pointless about defending a design decision by the developers that creates a game that fits your play style.  If you want to point fingers and call someone pointless, then point them at the raid fanatics who immediately react with disbelief and anger that a MMO has the audacity to not cater to them.

Adventure zones dude.  They have clearly said numerous times that they are making the game with hardcore players in mind as well.

 

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Really? Is that why the MMO with the longest upward growth of any MMo on the market, as well as second highest sub rate in the west, is primarily a PvP sandbox game? (Eve)

I don't know why in the hell people play EvE.  The game sucks donkey balls.

I like how everyone throws that outlier as proof though...

 

The reasons for Eve's success are very well documented and can be repeated. Unlike WoW, which is a true, 100% outlier.

Eve is how you're supposed to make a game. WoW is not.

  Sephros

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/22/11
Posts: 388

3/27/13 12:09:50 PM#379
Raids are so last decade!

Error: No Keyboard Detected!
Press F1 to continue......

  nerovipus32

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2716

3/27/13 12:14:23 PM#380
I'm fine with raiding if it's not the only way to get the best rewards, every way of play should be rewarded equally. the problem is when it comes to mmo's for some reason raiders get the better toys.
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