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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » Another great title ruined to the themepark.

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245 posts found
  User Deleted
3/21/13 6:41:43 AM#41
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Dihoru

 [mod edit]

[mod edit]

And how does a sandbox making money 10 years into its existence with over a quarter of a million users while maintaining a P2P model not incentivize other developers to adapt their sandbox mechanics to other IPs? (be them high fantasy, post apocalyptic, science fiction, christ you could even go with alternate reality).

 I am pretty sure investors need a lot more convincing than one sci fi MMO title which didn't even start as a AAA project but took good 8 years to get around 500K players. I was one of those early birds in EVE ONLINE when there were just  5K of us. However, this topic isn't about starting small but making a AAA sandbox title called ESO.

By the way Monoclegate was not CCP dicking around with their game, it was them flirting with the idea and the community making a show of force to prove that the game as is is as close to perfect as you can get, for us (I was one of the protestors) and that all the game needs is tweaks and enhancements to the overall existing game experience (more ships, iterating and polishing current mechanics, eventually expanding the universe either via more wormhole space or more 0.0 space). The developers who dicked around with their games no longer have communities and the ones who tried lost allot of the community. 

Successful flirting or not i simply stated that to show CCP isn't the saint and they also love money. It is a business after all and it is always easier to have opinions when money is not coming right out of our own pockets.

 

[mod edit]

[mod edit]

 

Now you can argue all you want but a business can plan for the long term not only the short term, if they resonably expect to appeal to a set mindset of individuals and cater to those people then the MMO will prosper but ESO is going to try to go for two crowds: the themeparkers and the TES crowd and those two groups do not overlap that much.

 

Also when EVE launched the term AAA didn't even exist, christ I don't even think WoW was touted as being a "AAA" game and to be perfectly frank I am glad neither of em were classed as AAA because AAA just means allot of money sunk into them and the more money invested the more chances that game will be more conventional (IE more safe in the invester eyes). The best of both worlds is to have a A or AA game because developers might actually get the leeway to try to make something new even if the graphics stink compared to other games of its generation CCP proved that graphics can be improved quite a bit down the line.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3547

3/21/13 6:46:51 AM#42

Last I checked, themepark / sandbox are game genres. One isn't superior than the other. One might appeal to you more but that's personal taste.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17131

3/21/13 6:47:28 AM#43
Originally posted by jfoytek

 

 

 CAREBEARS!!! 

ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

  Malacth

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/08
Posts: 116

3/21/13 6:48:50 AM#44
Originally posted by jfoytek
Originally posted by MikeJezZ
Originally posted by SysFail
I completely agree with everything the OP has said, even WoW the king of the themepark was enjoyable until they added in battllegrounds.

There's still World PVP in WoW, however, limited to a few areas

If its limited to zones its NOT WORLD pvp its Zone pvp...

Is it still zone pvp is its 99% world PvP? You can PvP anywhere in WoW, except for three cities. So yeah. People just don't do it, cos world PvP is just a zerg and no fun unless its structured, and even then its largely a zerg. Only fun if you're on the winning side, and the winning side is determined by numbers and not skill. I don't find that fun at all. And apparently most people don't, otherwise we'd still have mass world PvP. Just sayin'.

  RelGn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/05
Posts: 515

3/21/13 6:52:53 AM#45

Heres what happens everyone is trying to copy wow and they dont copy the most vital thing

Seamless world.

Did you heard the latest news?

You can go to other faction regions and see only your faction.Now thats the biggest letdown.

No open pvp no immersion.

Screw this.This game may look great but the mechanics are just making me hate it.

Hail to the carebears and the new generation of gamers who want to play an mmo in single player style with a twist of big pvp arena.

 

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

3/21/13 6:52:58 AM#46
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Dihoru

 And if everyone on the forum got paid a cent for every spelling error you made in your posts the forum could collectively sponsor a MMO by now.

 That was weak really. Attacking my spellings now? which i do edit by the way. And here i thought we were having a good discussion. And yes i make spelling mistakes because i can onlye use 2 fingers of my left hand. And kind of hard to type with just one right hand.

And how does a sandbox making money 10 years into its existence with over a quarter of a million users while maintaining a P2P model not incentivize other developers to adapt their sandbox mechanics to other IPs? (be them high fantasy, post apocalyptic, science fiction, christ you could even go with alternate reality).

 I am pretty sure investors need a lot more convincing than one sci fi MMO title which didn't even start as a AAA project but took good 8 years to get around 500K players. I was one of those early birds in EVE ONLINE when there were just  5K of us. However, this topic isn't about starting small but making a AAA sandbox title called ESO.

By the way Monoclegate was not CCP dicking around with their game, it was them flirting with the idea and the community making a show of force to prove that the game as is is as close to perfect as you can get, for us (I was one of the protestors) and that all the game needs is tweaks and enhancements to the overall existing game experience (more ships, iterating and polishing current mechanics, eventually expanding the universe either via more wormhole space or more 0.0 space). The developers who dicked around with their games no longer have communities and the ones who tried lost allot of the community. 

Successful flirting or not i simply stated that to show CCP isn't the saint and they also love money. It is a business after all and it is always easier to have opinions when money is not coming right out of our own pockets.

 

?p.s i typed really slow this time to not offend your highness with my spelling errors.

And you still made a couple of grammar mistakes now (for example: spellings isn't even a word).

Thanks i will edit that too. You are helping me to be such a better man i really appreciate that.

 

Now you can argue all you want but a business can plan for the long term not only the short term, if they resonably expect to appeal to a set mindset of individuals and cater to those people then the MMO will prosper but ESO is going to try to go for two crowds: the themeparkers and the TES crowd and those two groups do not overlap that much.

 I am arguing about business plan because it is very vital and everything boils down to investors and their money. As far as appeal goes, ESO (for those who have done some genuine research about the title so far) it is not  a copy of WOW but much more. It is more of a mixture of DAOC and GW2. It retains a lot of features from ES series. So in my opinion it is wrong to just limit ESO by using the word 'themepark'. Unles GW2 and DAOC are also WOW clones it wouldn't be right to call ESO the same.

But for some unless it is not a FFA full loot PVP MMO it is not a sandbox.

Also when EVE launched the term AAA didn't even exist, christ I don't even think WoW was touted as being a "AAA" game and to be perfectly frank I am glad neither of em were classed as AAA because AAA just means allot of money sunk into them and the more money invested the more chances that game will be more conventional (IE more safe in the invester eyes). The best of both worlds is to have a A or AA game because developers might actually get the leeway to try to make something new even if the graphics stink compared to other games of its generation CCP proved that graphics can be improved quite a bit down the line.

The term AAA mostly referes to amount of budgest and even if the term didn't exist back then EVE online i had a very small budget. But since the players are so critical these days they wouldn't settle for a low budget sandbox ESO title either. So it has to be a sandbox as well as AAA something which is very unlikely unless some other sandbox title with high fantasy theme generates millions in revenue and subscribers..all companies will just wait in a hope that someone else will make the first move.

 

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

 
OP  3/21/13 6:58:30 AM#47
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by jfoytek

 

 

 CAREBEARS!!! 

ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

Where did I ever say that WoW was hardcore or a pvp game???  I am comparing ESO to being just another WoW a game I dont want!  But yes I have said that WoW will likely be better because you have freedom of movement to go anywhere you want in WoW at any level....  Its Zones are not instanced like ESO's will be!

So yeah WoW will likely be a better game but that just means I would rather roll in Mud then Manure!

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  Doogiehowser

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

3/21/13 7:03:53 AM#48
Originally posted by jfoytek
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by jfoytek

 

 

 CAREBEARS!!! 

ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

Where did I ever say that WoW was hardcore or a pvp game???  I am comparing ESO to being just another WoW a game I dont want!  But yes I have said that WoW will likely be better because you have freedom of movement to go anywhere you want in WoW at any level....  Its Zones are not instanced like ESO's will be!

So yeah WoW will likely be a better game but that just means I would rather roll in Mud then Manure!

And it is same for ESO. And there is no typical questing in ESO like WOW and is as instanced as WOW is. What do you exactly mean when you say ESO zones are instanced?

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  User Deleted
3/21/13 7:07:59 AM#49
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Dihoru

 And if everyone on the forum got paid a cent for every spelling error you made in your posts the forum could collectively sponsor a MMO by now.

 That was weak really. Attacking my spellings now? which i do edit by the way. And here i thought we were having a good discussion. And yes i make spelling mistakes because i can onlye use 2 fingers of my left hand. And kind of hard to type with just one right hand.

And how does a sandbox making money 10 years into its existence with over a quarter of a million users while maintaining a P2P model not incentivize other developers to adapt their sandbox mechanics to other IPs? (be them high fantasy, post apocalyptic, science fiction, christ you could even go with alternate reality).

 I am pretty sure investors need a lot more convincing than one sci fi MMO title which didn't even start as a AAA project but took good 8 years to get around 500K players. I was one of those early birds in EVE ONLINE when there were just  5K of us. However, this topic isn't about starting small but making a AAA sandbox title called ESO.

By the way Monoclegate was not CCP dicking around with their game, it was them flirting with the idea and the community making a show of force to prove that the game as is is as close to perfect as you can get, for us (I was one of the protestors) and that all the game needs is tweaks and enhancements to the overall existing game experience (more ships, iterating and polishing current mechanics, eventually expanding the universe either via more wormhole space or more 0.0 space). The developers who dicked around with their games no longer have communities and the ones who tried lost allot of the community. 

Successful flirting or not i simply stated that to show CCP isn't the saint and they also love money. It is a business after all and it is always easier to have opinions when money is not coming right out of our own pockets.

 

?p.s i typed really slow this time to not offend your highness with my spelling errors.

And you still made a couple of grammar mistakes now (for example: spellings isn't even a word).

Thanks i will edit that too. You are helping me to be such a better man i really appreciate that.

 

Now you can argue all you want but a business can plan for the long term not only the short term, if they resonably expect to appeal to a set mindset of individuals and cater to those people then the MMO will prosper but ESO is going to try to go for two crowds: the themeparkers and the TES crowd and those two groups do not overlap that much.

 I am arguing about business plan because it is very vital and everything boils down to investors and their money. As far as appeal goes, ESO (for those who have done some genuine research about the title so far) it is not  a copy of WOW but much more. It is more of a mixture of DAOC and GW2. It retains a lot of features from ES series. So in my opinion it is wrong to just limit ESO by using the word 'themepark'. Unles GW2 and DAOC are also WOW clones it wouldn't be right to call ESO the same.

But for some unless it is not a FFA full loot PVP MMO it is not a sandbox.

Also when EVE launched the term AAA didn't even exist, christ I don't even think WoW was touted as being a "AAA" game and to be perfectly frank I am glad neither of em were classed as AAA because AAA just means allot of money sunk into them and the more money invested the more chances that game will be more conventional (IE more safe in the invester eyes). The best of both worlds is to have a A or AA game because developers might actually get the leeway to try to make something new even if the graphics stink compared to other games of its generation CCP proved that graphics can be improved quite a bit down the line.

The term AAA mostly referes to amount of budgest and even if the term didn't exist back then EVE online i had a very small budget. But since the players are so critical these days they wouldn't settle for a low budget sandbox ESO title either. So it has to be a sandbox as well as AAA something which is very unlikely unless some other sandbox title with high fantasy theme generates millions in revenue and subscribers..all companies will just wait in a hope that someone else will make the first move.

 

WoW cost 40 $ mil to develop.

EVE Online cost around 6-7 $ mil (5-6 mil euros) to develop.

These being the vanilla versions of both games.

For comparison's sake SWTOR cost around a minimum of 100 mil $ to develop. Now I am no expert in economy but I highly doubt that the US $ in 2003 is 2.5x that of the US$ in 2011 ergo money in itself does not make a game great, Hell I contend that the original version of WoW looked overall better than SWTOR from a purely gamer perspective (SWTOR is more advanced graphically yes but which of those two games would you say appeals more to a gamer overall?).

 

A sandbox game does not require this gen MMO graphics to be competitive, what it does need is solid gameplay, a decent universe/background lore, a freedom of choices and a consequence for every choice you make (be it PVP, PVE, etc, etc) so that even if you choose to kill that guy in the corner because he looked at you funny you may then either get killed by the local law enforcers or by  vengeful friends of said player which are only the direct ways to exact retribution (I remember somewhere on the forums someone saying griefers can dodge consequences with alts, all you need to do in that case is know that guy's alts and make his life Hell either directly, killing, looting, etc or indirectly, financially griefing his support alts by say denying him resources or space or access to crafting areas, etc).

  fs23otm

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/07
Posts: 259

3/21/13 7:09:56 AM#50

The problem with the term "sandbox" is that no one that wants to play a sandbox can actually agree what a sandbox is....

The game could have tons of sandbox features, and be missing one thing and people scream "it's not a sandbox".... then the next game has that feature and people scream " Not a sandbox"

Until someone can clearly define what a sandbox is, it will never satisfy anyone. 

IMHO, I think sandbox is just a mindset that people use to bash games. I have played tons of MMORPGs and I played all of them they way that I wanted. Which is what I consider a sandbox to be.... a place to play as you want. So every game is a sandbox...

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1341

3/21/13 7:10:04 AM#51
Originally posted by jfoytek

Regardless of what has been said there are a few simple facts:

 

Bye and large the majority of MMO's out today are either

Theampark

PvE

or Just not very good

 

Their is a huge lack of quality PvP/Crafting/Sandbox games.....

And its sickening to see all the best IP's like Star Trek, Star Wars, Elder Scrolls going the way of WoW!

 

How would you pitch a PVP/Crafting/Sandbox game to an investor? Can you show me one title out there that has made enough of a profit to justify the budget it would take to create it? This isn't 1999. There is heavy competition out there for our gaming dollars and the MMO player demands more from a game now then they ever did. What would you say to someone to get them to shell out millions of dollars for your game? What proof do you have that it could be a success? A few people on a forum that is known for its miserable posters wanting one? Would you try and point to EvE? An Indy title that has about 250k-300k subs? You would invest millions with that kind of proof being handed to you?

Now think about if you had control over one of those popular IP's. Would you risk it? Would you want your IP tied to a game like SWG? A game that goes down in history as the "what not to do to your MMO" poster child.

I am not saying that making a themepark game is a sure thing. I'm just saying if I were to invest money in to a game I would want the best odds I could get. Considering WoW makes more money off of vaniety pets and mounts in their store than most games make in a year or 2 of subs and it has completely dominated the industry for over 8 years thats the way I'm going.

So you are stuck in a vicious cirlce. Your type of game has not been made by a AAA studio with a large budget because there is no proof it would be profitable. There is no proof it would be profitable because no one has taken the risk to make your game. It could be profitable. It could be the next WoW. No one really knows how the industry could turn but right now your only hope is a Indy studio that has some really talented people. I highly doubt you will ever see a well known, popular IP or any high rolling investors take that risk unless a small little Indy studio hits it big.

 

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

 
OP  3/21/13 7:13:58 AM#52
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by jfoytek
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by jfoytek

 

 

 CAREBEARS!!! 

ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

Where did I ever say that WoW was hardcore or a pvp game???  I am comparing ESO to being just another WoW a game I dont want!  But yes I have said that WoW will likely be better because you have freedom of movement to go anywhere you want in WoW at any level....  Its Zones are not instanced like ESO's will be!

So yeah WoW will likely be a better game but that just means I would rather roll in Mud then Manure!

And it is same for ESO. And there is no typical questing in ESO like WOW and is as instanced as WOW is. What do you exactly mean when you say ESO zones are instanced?

It doesnt take a genius to figure out what the Mega Server is! 

Lets see when you complete all the quests in your home region you will be able to go enjoy level 50 content in another regions home region and do all the quests etc there..... 

Now think about it!!!  You were a nightelf in WoW and you start off in Darnassus when you hit 50 you can now go do all the content in Mulgore but why???  Why would you take on a bunch of lvl 1 mobs how is this level 50 content?  How can the content be level 50 for you and level 1 for them???  Because you are in an identical Instance of the zone that they are in, your content is your level there content is there level.... IE the Mega Server at work....

Infact lets not stop there lets choose PvE only so now your in this copy of a zone that doesnt allow pvp and is scaled to your level....

While someone else is in a similiar copy who Chose PvP etc etc

And its all one Huge Mega Server..... Uh yeah what a scam...  Its more like 10,000 Instanced zones running at the same time with a couple people in them....

Hmmm its about as Mega Server as World of Tanks is!!!

 

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

 
OP  3/21/13 7:21:00 AM#53
Originally posted by GreenHell
Originally posted by jfoytek

Regardless of what has been said there are a few simple facts:

 

Bye and large the majority of MMO's out today are either

Theampark

PvE

or Just not very good

 

Their is a huge lack of quality PvP/Crafting/Sandbox games.....

And its sickening to see all the best IP's like Star Trek, Star Wars, Elder Scrolls going the way of WoW!

 

How would you pitch a PVP/Crafting/Sandbox game to an investor? Can you show me one title out there that has made enough of a profit to justify the budget it would take to create it? This isn't 1999. There is heavy competition out there for our gaming dollars and the MMO player demands more from a game now then they ever did. What would you say to someone to get them to shell out millions of dollars for your game? What proof do you have that it could be a success? A few people on a forum that is known for its miserable posters wanting one? Would you try and point to EvE? An Indy title that has about 250k-300k subs? You would invest millions with that kind of proof being handed to you?

Now think about if you had control over one of those popular IP's. Would you risk it? Would you want your IP tied to a game like SWG? A game that goes down in history as the "what not to do to your MMO" poster child.

I am not saying that making a themepark game is a sure thing. I'm just saying if I were to invest money in to a game I would want the best odds I could get. Considering WoW makes more money off of vaniety pets and mounts in their store than most games make in a year or 2 of subs and it has completely dominated the industry for over 8 years thats the way I'm going.

So you are stuck in a vicious cirlce. Your type of game has not been made by a AAA studio with a large budget because there is no proof it would be profitable. There is no proof it would be profitable because no one has taken the risk to make your game. It could be profitable. It could be the next WoW. No one really knows how the industry could turn but right now your only hope is a Indy studio that has some really talented people. I highly doubt you will ever see a well known, popular IP or any high rolling investors take that risk unless a small little Indy studio hits it big.

 

A) Have theamparks been succesfull even with huge IP's backing them like Star Wars and Star Trek???

Answer: NO

B) Why make another copy of whats out there, look at the MMORPG game list how many times can you regurgetate the same crap and spit it out?

Answer: Where is the risk in doing something not like the rest of the pack

C) How often do you read on message boards people like me clammer and btiching and begging for a decent MMO with PvP/Crafting/ in an open Sand Box?

Answer: All the time

 

So why wouldnt you go against the main stream and garunteed yourself a client base that is waiting to be had!

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  RelGn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/05
Posts: 515

3/21/13 7:22:05 AM#54
Originally posted by jfoytek
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by jfoytek
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by jfoytek

 

 

 CAREBEARS!!! 

ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

Where did I ever say that WoW was hardcore or a pvp game???  I am comparing ESO to being just another WoW a game I dont want!  But yes I have said that WoW will likely be better because you have freedom of movement to go anywhere you want in WoW at any level....  Its Zones are not instanced like ESO's will be!

So yeah WoW will likely be a better game but that just means I would rather roll in Mud then Manure!

And it is same for ESO. And there is no typical questing in ESO like WOW and is as instanced as WOW is. What do you exactly mean when you say ESO zones are instanced?

It doesnt take a genius to figure out what the Mega Server is! 

Lets see when you complete all the quests in your home region you will be able to go enjoy level 50 content in another regions home region and do all the quests etc there..... 

Now think about it!!!  You were a nightelf in WoW and you start off in Darnassus when you hit 50 you can now go do all the content in Mulgore but why???  Why would you take on a bunch of lvl 1 mobs how is this level 50 content?  How can the content be level 50 for you and level 1 for them???  Because you are in an identical Instance of the zone that they are in, your content is your level there content is there level.... IE the Mega Server at work....

Infact lets not stop there lets choose PvE only so now your in this copy of a zone that doesnt allow pvp and is scaled to your level....

While someone else is in a similiar copy who Chose PvP etc etc

And its all one Huge Mega Server..... Uh yeah what a scam...  Its more like 10,000 Instanced zones running at the same time with a couple people in them....

Hmmm its about as Mega Server as World of Tanks is!!!

 

Yeah the game will be a fail if they have those instanced crap zones.

They should just make different mega servers for those who want to play the game as a seamless world with open pvp etc.

It's very simple 

1 mega server for carebears aka noobs or mother raised children

1 mega server for oldschool players who want to have that god damn real mmo experience.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17131

3/21/13 7:23:05 AM#55
Originally posted by jfoytek
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by jfoytek

 

 

 CAREBEARS!!! 

ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

Where did I ever say that WoW was hardcore or a pvp game???  I am comparing ESO to being just another WoW a game I dont want!  But yes I have said that WoW will likely be better because you have freedom of movement to go anywhere you want in WoW at any level....  Its Zones are not instanced like ESO's will be!

So yeah WoW will likely be a better game but that just means I would rather roll in Mud then Manure!

I suppose I inferred it from this line:

Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar.

What type of suicide run can one really have in WoW? and hwat does it matter if you kill anyone in WoW.

However, you have clarified your point so carry on. (also, wow isn't a sandbox and never was).

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

 
OP  3/21/13 7:27:53 AM#56
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by jfoytek
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by jfoytek

 

 

 CAREBEARS!!! 

ok so this is pretty much the crux of your argument.

Secondly you are talking about this in releation to WoW. I mean really? If you are going to use that stupid term at least talk about it in relation to a game where you actually lose something, where there was an actual risk.

Full loot, losing a chunk of xp, dropping items, all that constitutes risk.

What exactly do you lose in WoW? You lessen your argument by using WoW as an example of pvp risk/reward.

Unless of coursee WoW allows for you to lose xp, drop items and have your corpse looted?

in which case "cheerfully withdrawn".

Where did I ever say that WoW was hardcore or a pvp game???  I am comparing ESO to being just another WoW a game I dont want!  But yes I have said that WoW will likely be better because you have freedom of movement to go anywhere you want in WoW at any level....  Its Zones are not instanced like ESO's will be!

So yeah WoW will likely be a better game but that just means I would rather roll in Mud then Manure!

I suppose I inferred it from this line:

Well news flash, WoW became a great game because of content and its SANDBOX, the ability to go anywhere and kill anyone that lived on the server no matter if that ment a suicidal charge into ogrimar.

What type of suicide run can one really have in WoW? and hwat does it matter if you kill anyone in WoW.

However, you have clarified your point so carry on. (also, wow isn't a sandbox and never was).

Sandbox = A game map in which all area's are accessable by anyplayer....

For the most part this is true about WoW with the excpetion of dungeons and battle arena's

So I contend WoW is Primarly a Sandbox with Theampark content.....

 

Which is a huge upgrade from crap games like SWTOR and STO

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

3/21/13 7:31:38 AM#57

Stopped reading at Carebear.

Stopped giving you any credibility when I skimmed down a bit and saw you say that Trammel ruined UO.

Your "opinion" on game design is laughable.

As are your comprehension of facts.

Trammel made UO infinitely better. The small subset of players who were REALLY pissed about it and weren't crybabies moved to Siege Perilous and had the EXACT same gameplay experience. The population of the game jumped dramatically. The availability of PvP in Felucca jumped dramatically.

SWG was ruined from the start, NGE was just the final nail in the coffin which had already been shut and buried by then. The game had some great ideas, but the execution was ALWAYS horrible and the game was on it's last legs long before the CU and NGE.

Darkfall never took off because it is/was garbage gaming, most people don't like circle jerk bunny hop Counterstrike PvP in their MMOs. Oh, and they also don't like an extremely buggy, unpolished, piles of shit.

Now, I have NO idea if ESO is going to be any good or not.

But anywho who thinks a full loot kill anyone steal anything Elder Scrolls MMO would actually work is, well.... misguided.

I am a big fan of the ES RPGs, and I know enough to know what systems in those games wouldn't work in a MMO.

And guess what?

Those are the systems not going in to ESO?!

Recent revelations have all but proven that Zenimax knows what they are doing in designing this game - or they are listening to the fans that have a clue.

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2011

3/21/13 7:34:43 AM#58
Originally posted by GreenHell
Originally posted by jfoytek

Regardless of what has been said there are a few simple facts:

 

Bye and large the majority of MMO's out today are either

Theampark

PvE

or Just not very good

 

Their is a huge lack of quality PvP/Crafting/Sandbox games.....

And its sickening to see all the best IP's like Star Trek, Star Wars, Elder Scrolls going the way of WoW!

 

How would you pitch a PVP/Crafting/Sandbox game to an investor? Can you show me one title out there that has made enough of a profit to justify the budget it would take to create it? This isn't 1999. There is heavy competition out there for our gaming dollars and the MMO player demands more from a game now then they ever did. What would you say to someone to get them to shell out millions of dollars for your game? What proof do you have that it could be a success? A few people on a forum that is known for its miserable posters wanting one? Would you try and point to EvE? An Indy title that has about 250k-300k subs? You would invest millions with that kind of proof being handed to you?

Now think about if you had control over one of those popular IP's. Would you risk it? Would you want your IP tied to a game like SWG? A game that goes down in history as the "what not to do to your MMO" poster child.

I am not saying that making a themepark game is a sure thing. I'm just saying if I were to invest money in to a game I would want the best odds I could get. Considering WoW makes more money off of vaniety pets and mounts in their store than most games make in a year or 2 of subs and it has completely dominated the industry for over 8 years thats the way I'm going.

So you are stuck in a vicious cirlce. Your type of game has not been made by a AAA studio with a large budget because there is no proof it would be profitable. There is no proof it would be profitable because no one has taken the risk to make your game. It could be profitable. It could be the next WoW. No one really knows how the industry could turn but right now your only hope is a Indy studio that has some really talented people. I highly doubt you will ever see a well known, popular IP or any high rolling investors take that risk unless a small little Indy studio hits it big.

 

Nice summary, pretty much this. I'd love to see however a PvE/Crafting/Sandbox game :) without the stench of pvp I guess it could be a massive hit.

I don't have any proof ofc but I think sandboxes of today have niche numbers only because pvp. Someone cited Minecraft as an example of sandbox popularity, but even in Minecraft all the big stuff (like Minas Tirith, or the whole Middle-earth, or the scenes from Game of Thrones etc.) were built on separate servers, without any pvp griefers.

 

 jfoytek wrote the "simple facts" of the majority of MMO's - it's not without a reason, nor caused by UFO's or naughty conspiracies by devs against the poor, opressed pvp people... simply the facts. Themepark and pve sells. And the money goes where the sell is. GreenHell +1.

  Mildoze

Novice Member

Joined: 7/21/12
Posts: 8

"Think for yourself and question authority." Timmothy Leary

3/21/13 7:36:50 AM#59

I don't often find myself replying to post on this website, but when I do it's because someone is really off their rocker. Show me one sandbox game that has the WoW numbers and I'll show you a successful dev/publisher that is making mmos just for the fun of it. It's all about that bottom dollar and that dollar has spoken. People want to be handheld/guided and not overwhelmed about the game they play to relax... as well they should be. The majority of people playing these games, do so after work or on the weekends and can't be bothered to spend hours and hours only to find out they been killed and will have to start over there and walk back here or w/e all because some jackass who has no job/life wants to be a troll. Sandbox would/could fit this series well enough, the problem is that it wont work with the main stream, but this game is very far from what I would call "Themepark" through and through. So while I do think back to the days of yore when PVP ran rampant through the Crossroads and how much fun I used to have. It also reminds me of getting corpse camped for 45 mins right in the middle of my afternoon off from work when all I wanted to do was find some people for a dungeon run.

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2011

3/21/13 7:38:21 AM#60
Originally posted by BadSpock

Now, I have NO idea if ESO is going to be any good or not.

But anywho who thinks a full loot kill anyone steal anything Elder Scrolls MMO would actually work is, well.... misguided.

I am a big fan of the ES RPGs, and I know enough to know what systems in those games wouldn't work in a MMO.

+1 to that as well. And misguided is a very kind and friendly word for it :)

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