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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Richard Garriott “I think most game designers really just suck”

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116 posts found
  Destai

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/09
Posts: 503

3/20/13 6:20:59 PM#61
The designers don't suck. Sure, not every game programmer is a developer of legendary quality but they're talented enough to put these games together. It's the business side that's the problem in this genre, not the people who work hard to put the games together.

Current MMOs: Wildstar, Guild Wars 2, the Secret World, World of Warcraft

Past Loves: Guild Wars, Lord of the Rings Online, Everquest

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11554

3/20/13 6:21:49 PM#62

i doubt he would have gone shooting off his mouth if his kickstarter didnt already reach its goal  :)

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/19/shroud-of-the-avatar-tops-1-million-in-funding-adds-stretch-go/

  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1931

3/20/13 6:22:04 PM#63
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by birdycephon
I dunno, it seems like the guy is living in "the good ol' days". His new game concept looks so 90's. I hope things work out for him, but I doubt I will find his game appealing.

Before we judge him too harshly, I I think we need to take in to the perspective which point of view he is coming from.

 

The 90's was the golden age of RPGs. Almost all the most famous computer games RPG franchise was started in that era (Ultima, the golden boxes AD&D, Might & Magic, Wizardry, Fallout, etc the list is too long to go on). Back then because technology was limited, gameplay has to be good - and they WERE indeed really good.

 

Maybe it's easier to creat great game play since the techology is so limited.

The way I look is the guy really never make anything comtemporary.  I mean it's good the guy can creat those 2d or 3d sidescrolling whatever game.  But really when the only time he tried to creat a somewhat modern game he failed.

And he can talk any kind of trash he want.  Not like he can get any kind of funding from his previous track record.  And ya I know NCsoft is being a crap in that situation too, but I'm not sure that I sympathy what happened to him.

  strangiato2112

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/21/12
Posts: 1566

3/20/13 6:22:47 PM#64
Originally posted by Nadia

i doubt he would have gone shooting off his mouth if his kickstarter didnt already reach its goal  :)

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/19/shroud-of-the-avatar-tops-1-million-in-funding-adds-stretch-go/

 

suckers funding Britannia Manor MK III
  User Deleted
3/20/13 6:29:08 PM#65
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by Nadia

i doubt he would have gone shooting off his mouth if his kickstarter didnt already reach its goal  :)

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/19/shroud-of-the-avatar-tops-1-million-in-funding-adds-stretch-go/

 

suckers funding Britannia Manor MK III

Actually it's the foundation budget for Grande Britannia, a self-sustained space station/death star (sorry I just had to XD).

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

3/20/13 6:30:07 PM#66
Originally posted by strangiato2112
suckers funding Britannia Manor MK III

And every time we need another month of utility bills...

Topic Grenade! W00t, free publicity!

Looking like a megalomaniac? No worries, I'll have plenty of apologists. Crank the money press again.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  mari3k

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/13
Posts: 146

3/20/13 6:30:33 PM#67
Ooooooooooh my god ... Garriott is one of the worst games devs on the planet, with this statement he shows us also that he is the dumbest. Ultima was ok at its time, but not great. And the last thing I head from him was tabula rasa.... great work garriot , a masterpiece ! And now this "poor" man ripps his stuoid fans of with kickstarter... come on lets help him to pay his next space flight.

Step in the arena and break the wall down

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2700

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

3/20/13 7:04:29 PM#68
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by birdycephon
I dunno, it seems like the guy is living in "the good ol' days". His new game concept looks so 90's. I hope things work out for him, but I doubt I will find his game appealing.

Before we judge him too harshly, I I think we need to take in to the perspective which point of view he is coming from.

 

The 90's was the golden age of RPGs. Almost all the most famous computer games RPG franchise was started in that era (Ultima, the golden boxes AD&D, Might & Magic, Wizardry, Fallout, etc the list is too long to go on). Back then because technology was limited, gameplay has to be good - and they WERE indeed really good.

 

Maybe it's easier to creat great game play since the techology is so limited.

The way I look is the guy really never make anything comtemporary.  I mean it's good the guy can creat those 2d or 3d sidescrolling whatever game.  But really when the only time he tried to creat a somewhat modern game he failed.

And he can talk any kind of trash he want.  Not like he can get any kind of funding from his previous track record.  And ya I know NCsoft is being a crap in that situation too, but I'm not sure that I sympathy what happened to him.

Laokoko makes a great point that I want to emphasize.

  • Back in the 70's and 80's a single person could code a game. The tools used were simple and archaic.
  • Back in the 90's and 00's a small team could code a game. The tools used were limited and shared.
  • In the last few years it takes a large team to code a game. The tools are varied and expensive.

 

Making a masterpiece with a box of 4 crayons by yourself is difficult but not impossible. (Lord British then)

Making a masterpiece with a box of 4 million crayons along with 300 other people is much more difficult and nearly impossible (Dev teams of today)


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  aRtFuLThinG

Elite Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1083

3/20/13 7:19:09 PM#69
Originally posted by Ramonski7
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by birdycephon
I dunno, it seems like the guy is living in "the good ol' days". His new game concept looks so 90's. I hope things work out for him, but I doubt I will find his game appealing.

Before we judge him too harshly, I I think we need to take in to the perspective which point of view he is coming from.

 

The 90's was the golden age of RPGs. Almost all the most famous computer games RPG franchise was started in that era (Ultima, the golden boxes AD&D, Might & Magic, Wizardry, Fallout, etc the list is too long to go on). Back then because technology was limited, gameplay has to be good - and they WERE indeed really good.

 

Maybe it's easier to creat great game play since the techology is so limited.

The way I look is the guy really never make anything comtemporary.  I mean it's good the guy can creat those 2d or 3d sidescrolling whatever game.  But really when the only time he tried to creat a somewhat modern game he failed.

And he can talk any kind of trash he want.  Not like he can get any kind of funding from his previous track record.  And ya I know NCsoft is being a crap in that situation too, but I'm not sure that I sympathy what happened to him.

Laokoko makes a great point that I want to emphasize.

  • Back in the 70's and 80's a single person could code a game. The tools used were simple and archaic.
  • Back in the 90's and 00's a small team could code a game. The tools used were limited and shared.
  • In the last few years it takes a large team to code a game. The tools are varied and expensive.

 

Making a masterpiece with a box of 4 crayons by yourself is difficult but not impossible. (Lord British then)

Making a masterpiece with a box of 4 million crayons along with 300 other people is much more difficult and nearly impossible (Dev teams of today)

 

Maybe true, but if it was so we also have seen many instances where it was done properly (for example Neverwinter Nights, Dungeon Siege, Fallout New Vegas, Skyrim, etc). To me it seems more like because of the possible complexity the game developers choose instead the route of not letting players interact more with the world in today's RPG in an attempt to avoid effort - because developing something like Fallout NV an Skyrim where you can interact with so many things I'm sure must have been a lot of effort and in fact brainstorming involved. Something like Mass Effect however seems a lot simpler and just worry about story (instead of worrying about designing the world behind it).
  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4779

3/20/13 8:33:58 PM#70
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

Maybe true, but if it was so we also have seen many instances where it was done properly (for example Neverwinter Nights, Dungeon Siege, Fallout New Vegas, Skyrim, etc). To me it seems more like because of the possible complexity the game developers choose instead the route of not letting players interact more with the world in today's RPG in an attempt to avoid effort - because developing something like Fallout NV an Skyrim where you can interact with so many things I'm sure must have been a lot of effort and in fact brainstorming involved. Something like Mass Effect however seems a lot simpler and just worry about story (instead of worrying about designing the world behind it).


There are definitely some lazy developers out there (quite a few actually), but I think many people (garriott included) tend to assume it's always the 'designer's fault'. The sad truth is, the power of the designer in most cases is somewhat limited. The good ones fight to maintain their vision, while battling against  budget constraints.

With how expensive most games are now, the business side of things often dictates what gets released. Most designers can attest to situations where they desperately wanted to design a game a certain way, but couldn't due to funancial constraints. Furthermore some publishers are more heavy handed than others. Just look at what happened to the latest Sim City. The game was originally designed for offline play, and then EA turns around and forces them to change it for always on DRM.

There's too much going on in games to come out and basically condemn the entire industry as 'bad'. There's some really good indie devs out there, and there are some really good commercial devs out there as well. Sure, there are a ton of degree-made designers who suck, but most of them aren't directing projects. They're designing parts of the whole, not dictating the end result. That's just the way things work in large industries / projects. You have the creme of the crop who are making the really impressive stuff, you have a bunch of people who are good, but not great; and you have the people who buy their way in w/ a degree because they like games, and either learn how to be better or suck.

  Aeolyn

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/23/08
Posts: 138

3/20/13 9:20:42 PM#71
Just wondering, how many of you have actually read the whole article this thread refers to? "I’m not saying that because I think I’m so brilliant. What I’m saying is, I think most game designers really just suck, and I think there’s a reason why.”
  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

3/20/13 9:27:17 PM#72


Originally posted by Aeolyn
Just wondering, how many of you have actually read the whole article this thread refers to?

"I’m not saying that because I think I’m so brilliant. What I’m saying is, I think most game designers really just suck, and I think there’s a reason why.”


honestly ... most ppl on this forum are already of that opinion ... he's one of the last people I would care to hear from on the subject, especially as he is saying it in large part to get hits for his kickstarter.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  birdycephon

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 1327

Not Safe For Woona (NSFW)

3/20/13 9:27:59 PM#73
Nope.
  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4779

3/20/13 9:32:07 PM#74
Originally posted by azmundai


Originally posted by Aeolyn
Just wondering, how many of you have actually read the whole article this thread refers to?

"I’m not saying that because I think I’m so brilliant. What I’m saying is, I think most game designers really just suck, and I think there’s a reason why.”


honestly ... most ppl on this forum are already of that opinion ... he's one of the last people I would care to hear from on the subject, especially as he is saying it in large part to get hits for his kickstarter.

 

This ^
  Kinchyle

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/10
Posts: 286

3/20/13 9:33:32 PM#75
Originally posted by DamonVile

Well he's not really wrong....he just should include himself in that list.

you never really know if some of these people are just bad or if they just don't have the budget to see it through.

lol...this

  tank017

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/06
Posts: 2206

3/20/13 9:34:07 PM#76
So does this mean he's pinning the outright failure of Tabula Rasa on someone other than himself?
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20129

3/21/13 12:25:24 PM#77
Originally posted by MumboJumbo
If he says this after SotA releases to 10/10 reviews, then I might lend him an ear.

That is ... IF he actually makes a complete game first. We will see if that happens.

  Pie_Rat

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/02/05
Posts: 302

3/21/13 12:55:54 PM#78

Judging a game developper is just as hard as judging an actor or a film composer, you never know what comes from them or the person directing them.

What's pretty obvious is that the decision makers mostly suck, but those aren't always the developpers. Usually they're business majors who know nothing about gaming and even less about designing games.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

3/21/13 1:24:17 PM#79
Originally posted by Aeolyn
Just wondering, how many of you have actually read the whole article this thread refers to? "I’m not saying that because I think I’m so brilliant. What I’m saying is, I think most game designers really just suck, and I think there’s a reason why.”

It's actually an interesting critique of the dynamics of a large company.  His argument is basically that because it's harder to objectively measure good design skill over good coding skill, people who are good at a specialized technical role (art, coding, etc) are increasingly pidgeon-holed into those roles over their careers, leaving behind a pool of people for design that are basically the people who didn't fit anywhere else, whether or not they are actually good at it.

It's hard to make that sort of general argument about group dynamics without each individual designer feeling personally slapped across the face.

 

  User Deleted
3/21/13 1:30:14 PM#80
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Aeolyn
Just wondering, how many of you have actually read the whole article this thread refers to? "I’m not saying that because I think I’m so brilliant. What I’m saying is, I think most game designers really just suck, and I think there’s a reason why.”

It's actually an interesting critique of the dynamics of a large company.  His argument is basically that because it's harder to objectively measure good design skill over good coding skill, people who are good at a specialized technical role (art, coding, etc) are increasingly pidgeon-holed into those roles over their careers, leaving behind a pool of people for design that are basically the people who didn't fit anywhere else, whether or not they are actually good at it.

It's hard to make that sort of general argument about group dynamics without each individual designer feeling personally slapped across the face.

 

 

There is a saying in my and other professions: "Those that do...do...those that cannot do....teach"

 

I think the same thing applies here. Those that program or do art...do...those that cannot do (as well)....game design.

 

 

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