no AOE limit, zergs will die, with or without CC. provided there is good aoe dmg available.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

if you are a skilled group you can easily take out a crappy zerg in WvW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzDx6v_yWdA

this holds true for most games though a skilled few can dominate a bunch of poorly played characters. What i like to see is more incentives for running in small groups.. in GW2 a small group of skilled players can steamroll bigger groups but it's always easier to have a much larger group and just steamroll even faster(this is true for most large scale PVP games).. the incentives need to be there to encourage more small group play.

This is pretty true (to a point), and there are countless videos illustrating this in action. Zergs becoming a problem when they get large enough to be over 4x your number (in GW2), since the shear amount of numbers make it easy for dead players to get revived quickly. In fact, on our server Aerowyn, I can think of a number of guilds that specialize in dominating large zergs. However:

1) Zerging is not a bi-product of RvR per-se, but rather a biproduct of having large amounts of players in one space. It's herd mentallity, and people will ALWAYS zerg when around a large group of players, unless they specifically organize against it (ie. make the concious effort to avoid zerging with intent). You see this in literally EVERY mmo ever made, that isn't heavily instanced.

2) There are a number of tactics that you can literally do in ALL MMOs to combat zerging, regardless of game mechanics, provided the game has maps that don't shoe-horn players into one enclosed space (i.e. the game gives you enough room to be mobile & maneuver). Quite simply, to beat a zerg, it comes down to a combination of:

a) out-maneuvering them. Big zergs may be scary, but they are rarely organized, and it is EXTREMELY difficult to make such large groups of players change tactics quickly. Basically, once a zerg gets rolling, they tend to roam the map and it is very difficult to organize a change (they are victims to their own momentum). With an organized group you can easily decimate most zergs by use of flanking tactics, surprise attacks, guerilla tactics, etc. etc. etc. Even constantly engaging & then disengaging fights will wear down zergs, and they'll start to lose players.

b) splitting them up. This kinda falls into out-maneuvering, but basically if you attack a zerg from multiple angles, or use tactics that force the zerg to divide their attentions, they are usually going to be destoryed.

c) stalling / outcapping them.

d) attacking their morale. Zergs are often like mobs. It's a large group of players all riding the same high. They are deadly if allowed to have their momentum continue, and as long as they are constantly owning things, stomping, and gaining (objectives, points, exp, kills, etc. etc. etc.) players will continue to want to stay in the zerg. If you stall them (by example, giving them an objective they literally cannot take), they will eventually lose interest, people will log off or go elsewhere, because they aren't having any fun anymore. Some examples of this are harassment groups (ie a group of rogues / thieves / assassins), turtling a fortified tower or keep, and trolling them with a difficult, meaningless target that they'll want to kill.

Aside from the above, ways the game can combat zerging are basically as follows:

- player caps (which I don't think DAoC fans really want)

- strong siege equipment

- proper amounts of AoE

- good map design, allowing for players to move around the map.

GW2 is a bad example because the overall game is just badly designed.  Mark pointed out some of its flaws and it was nice to see.  TESO also plans to fix some of GW2's major flaws when it comes to RvR.  People just rezzing after dying and teleporting to the fight means the fight and death has no value or meaning.  Mark also mentioned that if people spot a small group, they can't just call everyone and teleport to their location and wipe them out like you can currently do in GW2. 

Hopefully CU doesn't become like Warhammer Online or GW2 where people run around in circles with their zerg and play musical chairs or musical doors. I hate when a keep is attacked people just leave because there is no point in staying and defending.  I do think depth that GW2 lacks that hopefully is in CU and TESO will help.  There needs to be healers and CC that can literally change the fight by a couple good CCs or heals.

Originally posted by Kyleran

 

Mark wrote:

"I view quick regen in much the same way I do instant rez in terms of its impact on battles. If it is too easy for players to recover health/mana/etc., it takes some of the strategy out of combat and leads to guys simply running somewhere and then jumping back in. My preference is give the players larger pools but let the recovery time be longer.

Now, as always it has to be fun but I think that I'd rather have players fight a little longer, play a little smarter and then be a little bit more beat up with a longer recovery time. I also *think* it is one of the things that could help fight the zerg but in a fair manner (keep chipping away, slow them down, etc.). In my perfect world, the zerg gets beat up but still wins and then it has a choice, hang out and heal or move to a different location and heal there.

Anyway, just some thoughts, nothing definite on this subject."

 

That would be awesome if implemented correctly.

Anti Zerg mechanic (just one possibility)

Assumptions:  

1. Group size is 6 (depends on game mechanics)
2. Zerg rules only apply outside x radius from keeps and named strangle points
3. Inside x radius of keep / strangle point  get normal xp based on class (aoe users get less xp per kill than melee)

Double xp for 1 on 1 fight (individual or same size group)

1.5% xp for fight ratio up to 1.5 to 1 (3 on 2)

Normal xp for up to 2 on 1

.5% xp for up to 3 on 1

No xp for over 3 on 1

So in effect you want to fight same size groups for maximum xp and if the zerg is too big it would be difficult to get groups to fight against where you can get decent or any xp.

---

Originally posted by grogstorm
Anti Zerg mechanic (just one possibility)

Assumptions:   [*] Group size is 6 (depends on game mechanics) [*] Zerg rules only apply outside x radius from keeps and named strangle points
Inside x radius of keep / strangle point  get normal xp based on class (aoe users get less xp per kill than melee)
Double xp for 1 on 1 fight (individual or same size group)

1.5% xp for fight ratio up to 1.5 to 1 (3 on 2)

Normal xp for up to 2 on 1

.5% xp for up to 3 on 1

No xp for over 3 on 1

So in effect you want to fight same size groups for maximum xp and if the zerg is too big it would be difficult to get groups to fight against where you can get decent or any xp.

---

not giving any XP for a 3:1 engagement would be silly, its going to be pretty common occurrence. The XP from zerging essentially diminishes itself though. say 100xp for a kill /50 people...you get 2 xp per kill, a slow way to level if you're not constantly battling and killing people...and zerg generally dont. they move at a much slower and than a typical small hunting party.

Anyone who played on Percival will remember the night of the "Malavela spam." 

As has been stated, I think all options for playstyle should be available.  I wouldn't do anything to "discourage" the zerg, although I'm no fan of it.  Large objectives will require large groups, hence, the zerg.  Just make sure there are objectives for smaller groups, 3 or 4 man groups, solos, etc.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

if you are a skilled group you can easily take out a crappy zerg in WvW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzDx6v_yWdA

this holds true for most games though a skilled few can dominate a bunch of poorly played characters. What i like to see is more incentives for running in small groups.. in GW2 a small group of skilled players can steamroll bigger groups but it's always easier to have a much larger group and just steamroll even faster(this is true for most large scale PVP games).. the incentives need to be there to encourage more small group play.

Can we make sure that spell effects arn't like this video?

I mean I don't think you can do that in 200 v 200 battles, but still god that would be so annoying to visually look at every battle.

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by Aerowyn

if you are a skilled group you can easily take out a crappy zerg in WvW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzDx6v_yWdA

this holds true for most games though a skilled few can dominate a bunch of poorly played characters. What i like to see is more incentives for running in small groups.. in GW2 a small group of skilled players can steamroll bigger groups but it's always easier to have a much larger group and just steamroll even faster(this is true for most large scale PVP games).. the incentives need to be there to encourage more small group play.

Can we make sure that spell effects arn't like this video?

I mean I don't think you can do that in 200 v 200 battles, but still god that would be so annoying to visually look at every battle.

I think that the zerg is the way this game should work. Armies vs. armies. However, armies can be slowed down by guerillia tactics ( aka 8er grps) and/or by cutting the supply line.

But when a zerg.. sorry, army, is commanded well, it should not get bashed by 8 ppl. The best tactic should be to build up a counter army. Of course it could be tactically wise to split up your own army to encircle the enemie army or something like that.

Also a small group should be able to defend a fortress a while, but if no reinforcements arrive soon, the army should take this fortress.

We want to do RvR, don't we? Otherwise it would be a simultanous 8vs8 arena.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by DeanMalinco

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by SanguisAevum

DAOC offered a vast range of play styles, and multiple ways to combat "The Zerg" if you so desired it.

- You could form your own zerg, and duke it out in an epic, Thane lag-hammer filled battle. :)

- You could form a well build group, and use speed, crowd control, superior tactics, focused damage, and voice comms to take on the zergs, and win! (if you were good enough).

- You could form smaller, mobile "gank" groups, and avoid the zergs (they tend to move slowly compared to small groups) and just pick on smaller groups, and smaller objectives (towers etc)

- Many classes were capable of solo scouting, picking off stragglers, guarding choke points, and avoiding the zerg, whilst contributing alone.

- A smaller defending force had a huge advantage vs attackers in a defensive structure (mile gate, keep, tower) and could usually successfully hold a structure long enough for backup to arrive... these kinds of situations led to some of the most epic sieges I have ever seen in an MMO. With the cavalry arriving just in time, and brutal courtyard battles (often 3-way) taking places on a regular basis.

 

lol at the daoc nostalgia blinders.  You can do all of that in GW2 or any other game with ZvZ combat.  Anytime you get a larger group together it's going to zerg.  That's the way people are.  daoc and CU weren't and won't be any different.

actually no you can't. there is no CC, there is no speed class, there is no perma stealth in gw2.

gw2 = zerg vs zerg. you can split off and run small gank grps but nothing on the scale of what we all are talking about.

So you haven't actually played GW2 I take it.  And, really?  perma-stealth and speed class break the zerg?  Good luck with your fantasy.  Tell me how it works out when reality releases the game.  What scale are you even talking about? Imaginary scale?

maybe you should read the rest of this thread or the countless other ones on here. i did play gw2, did you play daoc? because what you could accomplish in an group in DAOC vs. what you can accomplish in group in GW2 is not even close to the same thing. this is not an epeen contest, so not sure why you are trying to make it one. in DAOC you can bust zergs with 1 group or at least kill a large percentage of them through exactly what i said in my last post.

CC/Speed allows for kiting back, or AE bombing (full dmg). like many others have meantioned in this thread, even if you added the cc/speed in....the rez timer has to be fixed to the old style respawn as well. in gw2, there is no speed that any class cannot get if they wanted it (and its still slow as balls) there is also no form of cc outside of a 1-2 second stun or slow. it is the same style for all of the new MMO's in the past years since WoW. It is a care bear game...tailored to noobs and to help them survive long enough and have less down time (while dead).

What happened to the days where if you clumped up for a mez you just got murdered. if someone hits you with an assist train you would be dead within seconds, not have 3-4 people beating on you as you run around trying to escape casting the entire time to stay alive. no need to beat a dead horse here, but i think all of us from the older generation can agree. the games are dulled down to a point where they are just straight up boring. make the games competitve and risk/rewarding again...and the noobs will follow because everyone else is playing it. just my 2cents...

I don't see how having a short downtime or being able to stand against an assist train a short while is carebearing. Nobody likes to get hit by an assist-train and instantly drops down dead, fight over, please release.

I agree with you when you say, not everybody should be able to resurrect other players. There should be primary targets which you have to take out in order to win a fight, like healers. But there should also decent mechanisms for other players, like tanks, to defend these targets.

I aggree with you that mezz and stun should be an option to win a fight against odds, but it should never be a win-button.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by Aerowyn

if you are a skilled group you can easily take out a crappy zerg in WvW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzDx6v_yWdA

this holds true for most games though a skilled few can dominate a bunch of poorly played characters. What i like to see is more incentives for running in small groups.. in GW2 a small group of skilled players can steamroll bigger groups but it's always easier to have a much larger group and just steamroll even faster(this is true for most large scale PVP games).. the incentives need to be there to encourage more small group play.

Can we make sure that spell effects arn't like this video?

I mean I don't think you can do that in 200 v 200 battles, but still god that would be so annoying to visually look at every battle.

 

watch any large scale daoc battle its nothing but spell effects everywhere.. Not sure why gw2 gets so much flak about that aspect as daoc had same issue.. Wvw has plenty of issues but don't find spell effects to bad overall compared to other MMOs I have played with large scale battles

Might disagree with you, that video looks like there are 10 people fighting and spell effects look like they are just random

The only crazy spell effects in daoc were spears and hammers and they were high above characters ( didn't get in the way of you seeing yourself ) - Pbaoe might have, but that spell makes a lot of sense as its totally localized.

I dunno just personal preference I guess, i just really don't like that video.

Originally posted by MightyPit

I don't see how having a short downtime or being able to stand against an assist train a short while is carebearing. Nobody likes to get hit by an assist-train and instantly drops down dead, fight over, please release.

I agree with you when you say, not everybody should be able to resurrect other players. There should be primary targets which you have to take out in order to win a fight, like healers. But there should also decent mechanisms for other players, like tanks, to defend these targets.

I aggree with you that mezz and stun should be an option to win a fight against odds, but it should never be a win-button.

I think it's not whether or not people like to get instantly killed in 4 seconds if 4-5 people are hitting them in the back with hammers, but DONT YOU THINK THEY SHOULD? :) lol I mean come on

If you are able to survive 15 seconds with 4-5 people beating on you, then you're getting massive heals ( makes sense ), or the game is broken. You can't bust zergs ever with that kind of game logic, especially if people whining about mezz lasting too long. You have to be able to kill people fast if you work organized and together ....period.

If you don't want to die instantly with 4-5 people on you, maybe you should play smarter ( positioning ) or ensure you got some heals focused on you and work with your healers ( strategy ).

Pretty sure carebears won't be catered too and both of short down time and being able to stand against an assist train is care bearing.

Originally posted by MightyPit

I don't see how having a short downtime or being able to stand against an assist train a short while is carebearing. Nobody likes to get hit by an assist-train and instantly drops down dead, fight over, please release.

I agree with you when you say, not everybody should be able to resurrect other players. There should be primary targets which you have to take out in order to win a fight, like healers. But there should also decent mechanisms for other players, like tanks, to defend these targets.

I aggree with you that mezz and stun should be an option to win a fight against odds, but it should never be a win-button.

i should elaborate more on the assist train part. not trying to sound elitist and that is definately how it sounded in my last reply. i was just trying to say gone are the days of.....seeing the assist train coming towards you, having to call out instantly for pre-heals/peels. if defended well you could survive the train, but if not...you were most certaintely dead (quickly). just trying to introduce more skill back into the game for both sides (offensive/defensive). carebear may have been a harsh description but the fact is...the new MMO generation makes surviving / getting back into the action a LOT easier than it used to be. it is...well....just...boring.

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by MightyPit

I don't see how having a short downtime or being able to stand against an assist train a short while is carebearing. Nobody likes to get hit by an assist-train and instantly drops down dead, fight over, please release.

I agree with you when you say, not everybody should be able to resurrect other players. There should be primary targets which you have to take out in order to win a fight, like healers. But there should also decent mechanisms for other players, like tanks, to defend these targets.

I aggree with you that mezz and stun should be an option to win a fight against odds, but it should never be a win-button.

I think it's not whether or not people like to get instantly killed in 4 seconds if 4-5 people are hitting them in the back with hammers, but DONT YOU THINK THEY SHOULD? :) lol I mean come on

If you are able to survive 15 seconds with 4-5 people beating on you, then you're getting massive heals ( makes sense ), or the game is broken. You can't bust zergs ever with that kind of game logic, especially if people whining about mezz lasting too long. You have to be able to kill people fast if you work organized and together ....period.

If you don't want to die instantly with 4-5 people on you, maybe you should play smarter ( positioning ) or ensure you got some heals focused on you and work with your healers ( strategy ).

Pretty sure carebears won't be catered too and both of short down time and being able to stand against an assist train is care bearing.

 

There's nothing wrong with going down fast when you get hit by 4-5 people and doing NOTHING. But you should be able to dogde, shield yourself, get healed or anything like that. If your assist-train target gets to hard to knock down, choose another one. As a skillful player you will accomplish that ;-)  And please don't whine when you get hit by the zerg-train. Outnumbered fights are supposed to be difficult or impossible. No carebearing here!

And don't missunderstand me. Organized skillful playing should be key to winning a fight. But players in a zerg are not by default unorganized and/or unskilled.

And I still believe that making a game fun to play has nothing to do with carebearing. The defeated player should also have the feeling that this fight was fun, knowing that he had a chance if he did this or that better.

Originally posted by MightyPit

Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

Originally posted by MightyPit

I don't see how having a short downtime or being able to stand against an assist train a short while is carebearing. Nobody likes to get hit by an assist-train and instantly drops down dead, fight over, please release.

I agree with you when you say, not everybody should be able to resurrect other players. There should be primary targets which you have to take out in order to win a fight, like healers. But there should also decent mechanisms for other players, like tanks, to defend these targets.

I aggree with you that mezz and stun should be an option to win a fight against odds, but it should never be a win-button.

I think it's not whether or not people like to get instantly killed in 4 seconds if 4-5 people are hitting them in the back with hammers, but DONT YOU THINK THEY SHOULD? :) lol I mean come on

If you are able to survive 15 seconds with 4-5 people beating on you, then you're getting massive heals ( makes sense ), or the game is broken. You can't bust zergs ever with that kind of game logic, especially if people whining about mezz lasting too long. You have to be able to kill people fast if you work organized and together ....period.

If you don't want to die instantly with 4-5 people on you, maybe you should play smarter ( positioning ) or ensure you got some heals focused on you and work with your healers ( strategy ).

Pretty sure carebears won't be catered too and both of short down time and being able to stand against an assist train is care bearing.

 

There's nothing wrong with going down fast when you get hit by 4-5 people and doing NOTHING. But you should be able to dogde, shield yourself, get healed or anything like that. If your assist-train target gets to hard to knock down, choose another one. As a skillful player you will accomplish that ;-)  And please don't whine when you get hit by the zerg-train. Outnumbered fights are supposed to be difficult or impossible. No carebearing here!

And don't missunderstand me. Organized skillful playing should be key to winning a fight. But players in a zerg are not by default unorganized and/or unskilled.

And I still believe that making a game fun to play has nothing to do with carebearing. The defeated player should also have the feeling that this fight was fun, knowing that he had a chance if he did this or that better.

1st paragraph ... that's exactly how daoc worked, and I hope they can accomplish that balance in CU.

2nd paragraph ... agreed

3rd paragraph ... There can be too much carebearing done... That's why games end up changing for the worse, look at daoc and wow etc... They have all started carebearing to the masses that whine "this is too hard" " i die too fast" "my class sucks" etc. etc. etc. etc.... You have to limit the amount of carebearing you do because it can and will ruin a game. I don't have that fear as per the FP's.

Originally posted by DeanMalinco

Originally posted by MightyPit

I don't see how having a short downtime or being able to stand against an assist train a short while is carebearing. Nobody likes to get hit by an assist-train and instantly drops down dead, fight over, please release.

I agree with you when you say, not everybody should be able to resurrect other players. There should be primary targets which you have to take out in order to win a fight, like healers. But there should also decent mechanisms for other players, like tanks, to defend these targets.

I aggree with you that mezz and stun should be an option to win a fight against odds, but it should never be a win-button.

i should elaborate more on the assist train part. not trying to sound elitist and that is definately how it sounded in my last reply. i was just trying to say gone are the days of.....seeing the assist train coming towards you, having to call out instantly for pre-heals/peels. if defended well you could survive the train, but if not...you were most certaintely dead (quickly). just trying to introduce more skill back into the game for both sides (offensive/defensive). carebear may have been a harsh description but the fact is...the new MMO generation makes surviving / getting back into the action a LOT easier than it used to be. it is...well....just...boring.

Thanks for clarifying that. But I can't aggree with you. Why is a better survivability of all combatants bad? The fight lasts longer. It takes longer for the winner to get the reward. This is a good thing, fighting gets more interesting, not less. The other extreme would be onehits in rvr. I think nobody wants that?

And why is getting back into the action easier a reason to describe the game as boring? While a healer is alive, it is good to bring the others back to action fast. If the healer is down, nobody can resurrect in-fight, and the chances for the other team to win that fight are rising. When the group is wiped, they have to release at a unfighted release spot. This is not too easy to get back into the action. And that's how gw2 wvw is working, beside that everyone can resurrect. But this is nothing I will (and want) see in CU

Better survivability for everyone simply means zerg busting is impossible. Zerg busting for the most part ( in daoc ) was only accomplished when attacked by surprise and killed a lot in chaos before they could organize. If it takes 30 seconds to kill 1 target then sure 8v8 type environments and 200 v 200 get longer / more sustained, but 8v16 would end up being impossible even given the jump / surprise.

There has to be a balance there, and i'm sure that will get organized during beta. Just hopefully it isolates itself at a point where all aspects of the game 1v1 8v8 (assuming group of 8 dont really know ) 8v 16 8v40 100v100 etc.

I really hope pbaoe is a part of this game :o