I would be interested to find out the community's views on "The Zerg" and how it affects the meta-game of RvR strategy and tactics, as well as influencing the RvR play styles available to people.

I would be even more interested in hearing Mark's views on this subject.

First, let me compare one older game, and one newer game to illustrate the various facets of the issue I am trying to highlight.

DAOC

GW2

In both games "The Zerg" was/is an ever present threat. It could be said that the very nature of "RvR" games encourages the formation of zergs. After all, it is far easier to take a keep with a vast force of players than just a few.

The issue is... what if you don't want to zerg? what if zerg surfing is a totally unappealing way to play the game for you? If you are one of those players, what other options for contribution to RvR are there in those games?

DAOC offered a vast range of play styles, and multiple ways to combat "The Zerg" if you so desired it.

- You could form your own zerg, and duke it out in an epic, Thane lag-hammer filled battle. :)

- You could form a well build group, and use speed, crowd control, superior tactics, focused damage, and voice comms to take on the zergs, and win! (if you were good enough).

- You could form smaller, mobile "gank" groups, and avoid the zergs (they tend to move slowly compared to small groups) and just pick on smaller groups, and smaller objectives (towers etc)

- Many classes were capable of solo scouting, picking off stragglers, guarding choke points, and avoiding the zerg, whilst contributing alone.

- A smaller defending force had a huge advantage vs attackers in a defensive structure (mile gate, keep, tower) and could usually successfully hold a structure long enough for backup to arrive... these kinds of situations led to some of the most epic sieges I have ever seen in an MMO. With the cavalry arriving just in time, and brutal courtyard battles (often 3-way) taking places on a regular basis.

GW2, In contrast, offers almost no way to combat "The Zerg" my guild and I have tried and tried to come up with ways to beat the blobs, we have some success, but its a loosing battle. Almost every mechanic in GW2 either directly or indirectly helps the zerg. You cant defend a keep vs larger numbers, as attrition doesn't work, people just get straight back up, you cant fight them in open field due to AOE caps, and no CC. You cant outrun them due to fixed speed for everyone... I think it is fair to say, that if "Zerg surfing" is not your thing, GW2 is not going to be that enjoyable for you in RvR. The only real way to beat 50 people in GW2 is to get 50 of your own people together.

Now...

I honestly hope that CU has many available play styles for RvR. I am by far and away a "small scale, guild group" kind of player... and If I go to the trouble of putting together a strong, balanced group of skilled players who are talking to each other, I want to be able to take on larger forces and win... or at least make a difference to the war effort.

In DAOC (and WAR to a lesser extent), A zerg commander knew he better be careful when death spam from feared/famed guild groups started hitting the channels, I want that back.

How do you guys feel about this, and perhaps more importantly, Mark... what are your thoughts on smaller organised groups "Taking on the zerg" ?

Thanks.

I understand where your comming from, but, if we can avoid it, i would rather not turn this into a discussion about GW2's rvr failings, it was just an example to contrast with DAOC's multitude of options for dealing with (or avoiding) the zerg.

If we could focus the discusion on peoples view on "the zerg" itself, and whether smaller organsided groups should have a chance at beating them if they are good enough.

Originally posted by SanguisAevum

I would be interested to find out the community's views on "The Zerg" and how it affects the meta-game of RvR strategy and tactics, as well as influencing the RvR play styles available to people.

 

I would be even more interested in hearing Mark's views on this subject.

 

One tidbit Mark's shared about combating the zerg was his reply to the thread titled:

Are we going to see "Healer low on mana, STOP pulls" messages?

Mark wrote:

"I view quick regen in much the same way I do instant rez in terms of its impact on battles. If it is too easy for players to recover health/mana/etc., it takes some of the strategy out of combat and leads to guys simply running somewhere and then jumping back in. My preference is give the players larger pools but let the recovery time be longer.

Now, as always it has to be fun but I think that I'd rather have players fight a little longer, play a little smarter and then be a little bit more beat up with a longer recovery time. I also *think* it is one of the things that could help fight the zerg but in a fair manner (keep chipping away, slow them down, etc.). In my perfect world, the zerg gets beat up but still wins and then it has a choice, hang out and heal or move to a different location and heal there.

Anyway, just some thoughts, nothing definite on this subject."

Granted now, that isn't much to go on, but it does sound like the zerg will still have a strong advantage, but perhaps there will be mechanics in place like in early DAOC where a strong 8 man or two could prevail against the zerg.

Although, without the strong crowd control that existed there (and Mark doesn't seem to favor that) I'm not sure it will be really possible to pull this off, but we'll see what they come up with.

In DAoC, I always wished for a mechanic that discouraged zerging, such as lowering the RP/XP/whatever whenever you kill someone with tons of other people around. I've no problems with larger groups, even though I found group vs group most fun myself, but when it gets too big, it just gets messy.

I appriciate the need for numbers in sieges and such, of course, but that could be rewarded differently. Splitting a pool of points at the end of the siege, based on enemies killed and the difficulty of the keep might be a decent idea. That will still encourage siege and fighting for your realm, without encouraging running around the frontiers in a huge zerg, just mowing over everything to get points, not really contributing to the realm in itself.

The big issue for me is for playstyles other than zerging to be rewarding. DAOC did that brilliantly through realm points, realm ranks, and especially realm abilities.

I don't mind if a big numbers advantage usually leads to victory although it is important that a skilled smaller force have a chance to defend a keep otherwise players won't ever bother trying to defend. What I mind is if the game only rewards zerging. There must be rewards for killing other players regardless of how many of their realm mates are around. That creates the right incentives for players to attempt a seemingly hopeless defense because there is at least the possibility of advancing their characters in the process even if they ultimately lose the fight. It also makes it possible for players to solo, small man, 8v8, etc. Which is perfectly fine. Having more than one rewarding ways to play is a good thing.

The good news is this seems to be how CSE plans to make the game if I am understanding Mark's posts about progression from February correctly.

Damn That's the thing that i loved about daoc.

You were good - you could kill tons of more players.

We used to go inside crauchon with open teleport and fight hibs until they got about 60 of them then we couldn't handle them anymore. 

We wiped on the swamp 40 hibs with 2 groups of albs who jumped from eras. They couldn't move in swamp, we had healers on the island and we aoed them to death.

And lots of more stories like that. That moments felt legendary. I haven't felt anything like this in todays games ;(

And you know why is that like that? Because all those games have bad system interruption. Healers casts even tho they are being hit. They can tank 3-4 enemies and still heal entire grps. WTF?

We need hard interrupt system like in daoc to make people think in combat. 

Originally posted by morfidon

Damn That's the thing that i loved about daoc.

You were good - you could kill tons of more players.

We used to go inside crauchon with open teleport and fight hibs until they got about 60 of them then we couldn't handle them anymore. 

We wiped on the swamp 40 hibs with 2 groups of albs who jumped from eras. They couldn't move in swamp, we had healers on the island and we aoed them to death.

And lots of more stories like that. That moments felt legendary. I haven't felt anything like this in todays games ;(

And you know why is that like that? Because all those games have bad system interruption. Healers casts even tho they are being hit. They can tank 3-4 enemies and still heal entire grps. WTF?

We need hard interrupt system like in daoc to make people think in combat. 

Also agree, but would like to point out thtat not only do we need a hard interupt system to be able to counter zergs, there's no way you will be able to have a chance against a zerg with Collision Detection, no possible way, pbaoe was the main offense against zergs and that would be made useless if you can't bomb large stacks of people.

I miss defending against zergs with our group in OF keeps, so fun :(

One thing I'd like to add,

If there is any type of pull ability, that will make it extremely difficult for any small group to beat a zerg. In War if you get pulled into a zerg your are tab-target dead. There is no counter. 

Oh one more thing that I find annoying. In Rift every single aoe/pbae/gtae ability has a limit to the amount of players it can affect. Lets say 10 is the max. Well if my group of 5 is fighting a group of 20, guess what? Half that group isn't going to be touched and will still be able to zerg me down. For players to be able to realistically attack a zerg there can't be any limits to the amount of players CC can affect. If I'm a bard and I land the perfect mez on a clumped up group of 50 albs, all 50 of those albs should get mezzed. 

Finally the one kind of zerg that you can't beat with inferior numbers is the stealth zerg. Of all the zergs I've ever fought stealth zergs were the most annoying. It's rage quit time when you walk 10 steps away from a safe zone and get popped by 10 stealthers and you and your buddy instantly die. I know this can happen against a regular zerg but if your buddy has speed and you pan good you can somewhat avoid it. Stealth zergs you can't as easily avoid since you don't even know it's there.

Originally posted by fanglo

One thing I'd like to add,

If there is any type of pull ability, that will make it extremely difficult for any small group to beat a zerg. In War if you get pulled into a zerg your are tab-target dead. There is no counter. 

Oh one more thing that I find annoying. In Rift every single aoe/pbae/gtae ability has a limit to the amount of players it can affect. Lets say 10 is the max. Well if my group of 5 is fighting a group of 20, guess what? Half that group isn't going to be touched and will still be able to zerg me down. For players to be able to realistically attack a zerg there can't be any limits to the amount of players CC can affect. If I'm a bard and I land the perfect mez on a clumped up group of 50 albs, all 50 of those albs should get mezzed. 

Finally the one kind of zerg that you can't beat with inferior numbers is the stealth zerg. Of all the zergs I've ever fought stealth zergs were the most annoying. It's rage quit time when you walk 10 steps away from a safe zone and get popped by 10 stealthers and you and your buddy instantly die. I know this can happen against a regular zerg but if your buddy has speed and you pan good you can somewhat avoid it. Stealth zergs you can't as easily avoid since you don't even know it's there.

Exactly if there are 50 people running next to each other and they got hit from behind that's their fault they all got mezzed in one place. 

There shouldn't be cap saying how many people you can mezz etc. Let people pay and be doomed for their mistakes. 

I do not agree with stealhers. If you had good grp stealhers would never win with visible groups. They have no heals at all. 

What's more as a paladin + armsman we could take down 8 stealhers at once without heals. So imho stealhers were never oped.

In my experience having only zerging as playstyle gets boring quickly (see GW2). So does having only group vs group (see Uthgard / Lamorak). The optimal is to have both and even more playstyles.

This is what made DAoC great:

In a casual or "realm pride" mood? Or are you a newbie who can't kill anything in even fights?  Join the zerg, maybe take some keeps or relics. 

In a competitive mood? 8v8

You and few friends on? Make a small group and overcome the odds.

Don't wanna deal with people right now? Go solo.

Newbie stealther who can't kill anyone solo? Join the stealthzerg.

I literally never got bored in this game (until the ToA+NF disasters)

Originally posted by dynamicipftw

In my experience having only zerging as playstyle gets boring quickly (see GW2). So does having only group vs group (see Uthgard / Lamorak). The optimal is to have both and even more playstyles.

This is what made DAoC great:

In a casual or "realm pride" mood? Or are you a newbie who can't kill anything in even fights?  Join the zerg, maybe take some keeps or relics. 

In a competitive mood? 8v8

You and few friends on? Make a small group and overcome the odds.

Don't wanna deal with people right now? Go solo.

Newbie stealther who can't kill anyone solo? Join the stealthzerg.

I literally never got bored in this game (until the ToA+NF disasters)

It really is true so +1

Lamorak and Uthgard are great examples of removing part of these systems. I also feel if organized groups can't pick away at zergs through defending a keep / tower and its always a wash that will cause problems too as they will isolate themselves completely. Biggest reason i'm against CD is this, as it will guarentee the zerg dominates groups.

Originally posted by SanguisAevum

DAOC offered a vast range of play styles, and multiple ways to combat "The Zerg" if you so desired it.

- You could form your own zerg, and duke it out in an epic, Thane lag-hammer filled battle. :)

- You could form a well build group, and use speed, crowd control, superior tactics, focused damage, and voice comms to take on the zergs, and win! (if you were good enough).

- You could form smaller, mobile "gank" groups, and avoid the zergs (they tend to move slowly compared to small groups) and just pick on smaller groups, and smaller objectives (towers etc)

- Many classes were capable of solo scouting, picking off stragglers, guarding choke points, and avoiding the zerg, whilst contributing alone.

- A smaller defending force had a huge advantage vs attackers in a defensive structure (mile gate, keep, tower) and could usually successfully hold a structure long enough for backup to arrive... these kinds of situations led to some of the most epic sieges I have ever seen in an MMO. With the cavalry arriving just in time, and brutal courtyard battles (often 3-way) taking places on a regular basis.

 

lol at the daoc nostalgia blinders.  You can do all of that in GW2 or any other game with ZvZ combat.  Anytime you get a larger group together it's going to zerg.  That's the way people are.  daoc and CU weren't and won't be any different.

I played DAoC as a stealther primarily, but also as a part-time member of a 8-man group. The 8-man was not a super-tuned outfit where every member had specific skills and roles. Our tactics were to camp a bridge and take on whoever came along. After a while the enemy turned out enough players to dislodge us and we were killed. It was fun, but the zergs hold a special place with me since I believe the huge epic 100vs100 fights are DAoCs biggest legacy. The fights most people remember, win or lose, were the epic fights at AMG with Albs at the front and hibs/mids charging from the rear.

The zerg offers groups/people who are not completely fine-tuned to have some fun. Groups who did not have two primary healers and a CCer, were easy pickings for 8-mans and quick wipes. In a zerg they could have some fun without standing locked down waiting for the assist train.

Many skilled people ran with zergs for various reasons, but the main was that their chosen class was not needed in a 8-man. How many 8-mans included thanes, friars, wardens?

Realm vs realm does not mean 8vs8, the picture is largers. Smaller groups, as someone mentioned, can move faster and avoid the zerg, but I don't like the notion that they should be able to beat it without a zerg of their own.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by SanguisAevum

DAOC offered a vast range of play styles, and multiple ways to combat "The Zerg" if you so desired it.

- You could form your own zerg, and duke it out in an epic, Thane lag-hammer filled battle. :)

- You could form a well build group, and use speed, crowd control, superior tactics, focused damage, and voice comms to take on the zergs, and win! (if you were good enough).

- You could form smaller, mobile "gank" groups, and avoid the zergs (they tend to move slowly compared to small groups) and just pick on smaller groups, and smaller objectives (towers etc)

- Many classes were capable of solo scouting, picking off stragglers, guarding choke points, and avoiding the zerg, whilst contributing alone.

- A smaller defending force had a huge advantage vs attackers in a defensive structure (mile gate, keep, tower) and could usually successfully hold a structure long enough for backup to arrive... these kinds of situations led to some of the most epic sieges I have ever seen in an MMO. With the cavalry arriving just in time, and brutal courtyard battles (often 3-way) taking places on a regular basis.

 

lol at the daoc nostalgia blinders.  You can do all of that in GW2 or any other game with ZvZ combat.  Anytime you get a larger group together it's going to zerg.  That's the way people are.  daoc and CU weren't and won't be any different.

actually no you can't. there is no CC, there is no speed class, there is no perma stealth in gw2.

gw2 = zerg vs zerg. you can split off and run small gank grps but nothing on the scale of what we all are talking about.

Originally posted by DeanMalinco

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by SanguisAevum

DAOC offered a vast range of play styles, and multiple ways to combat "The Zerg" if you so desired it.

- You could form your own zerg, and duke it out in an epic, Thane lag-hammer filled battle. :)

- You could form a well build group, and use speed, crowd control, superior tactics, focused damage, and voice comms to take on the zergs, and win! (if you were good enough).

- You could form smaller, mobile "gank" groups, and avoid the zergs (they tend to move slowly compared to small groups) and just pick on smaller groups, and smaller objectives (towers etc)

- Many classes were capable of solo scouting, picking off stragglers, guarding choke points, and avoiding the zerg, whilst contributing alone.

- A smaller defending force had a huge advantage vs attackers in a defensive structure (mile gate, keep, tower) and could usually successfully hold a structure long enough for backup to arrive... these kinds of situations led to some of the most epic sieges I have ever seen in an MMO. With the cavalry arriving just in time, and brutal courtyard battles (often 3-way) taking places on a regular basis.

 

lol at the daoc nostalgia blinders.  You can do all of that in GW2 or any other game with ZvZ combat.  Anytime you get a larger group together it's going to zerg.  That's the way people are.  daoc and CU weren't and won't be any different.

actually no you can't. there is no CC, there is no speed class, there is no perma stealth in gw2.

gw2 = zerg vs zerg. you can split off and run small gank grps but nothing on the scale of what we all are talking about.

So you haven't actually played GW2 I take it.  And, really?  perma-stealth and speed class break the zerg?  Good luck with your fantasy.  Tell me how it works out when reality releases the game.  What scale are you even talking about? Imaginary scale?

This thread reminded me of a story.

I played alb Percival and one night the mids were systematically taking over our keeps and making major headway toward a relic raid. Well as we are all setting up at the relic keep, our scouts report that a very large group of mids had massed in front of one of our keeps they had taken a bit earlier. It was one of those deals where you are waiting for everyone to get there and for everyone to get buffed up.

So as I said, our scouts report this and are sure the mids are about to advance toward our relic keep.Then out of nowhere, my chat tab fills with green deathspam. An 8-man hib pbaoe bomb group had snuck up on the zerg and went all suicidal in the middle of them. I went back and counted something like 28 deathspam messages from the pbaoe. After ROFLing for a few minutes we moved out to meet the mids head on. We did not lose either of our relics that night.

So yeah, sorta off topic but I think it reinforces the point that you need all playstyles(zerg, group, and small group/solo) to make a truely memorable experience. That had to be like 2002 or 2003 and I still crack a smile when I think about it.

Originally posted by dynamicipftw

In my experience having only zerging as playstyle gets boring quickly (see GW2). So does having only group vs group (see Uthgard / Lamorak). The optimal is to have both and even more playstyles.

This is what made DAoC great:

In a casual or "realm pride" mood? Or are you a newbie who can't kill anything in even fights?  Join the zerg, maybe take some keeps or relics. 

In a competitive mood? 8v8

You and few friends on? Make a small group and overcome the odds.

Don't wanna deal with people right now? Go solo.

Newbie stealther who can't kill anyone solo? Join the stealthzerg.

I literally never got bored in this game (until the ToA+NF disasters)

+1

I loved the zergs in DAoC; I loved the 8mans that wrecked the zergs; I loved dying to the stealth zergs; I loved the small knit groups that took towers and overcame the odds.  Vote Dark Age of Camelot, 2016.

Originally posted by Corinthian-X

This thread reminded me of a story.

 

I played alb Percival and one night the mids were systematically taking over our keeps and making major headway toward a relic raid. Well as we are all setting up at the relic keep, our scouts report that a very large group of mids had massed in front of one of our keeps they had taken a bit earlier. It was one of those deals where you are waiting for everyone to get there and for everyone to get buffed up.

So as I said, our scouts report this and are sure the mids are about to advance toward our relic keep.Then out of nowhere, my chat tab fills with green deathspam. An 8-man hib pbaoe bomb group had snuck up on the zerg and went all suicidal in the middle of them. I went back and counted something like 28 deathspam messages from the pbaoe. After ROFLing for a few minutes we moved out to meet the mids head on. We did not lose either of our relics that night.

So yeah, sorta off topic but I think it reinforces the point that you need all playstyles(zerg, group, and small group/solo) to make a truely memorable experience. That had to be like 2002 or 2003 and I still crack a smile when I think about it.

Our mid 8man did something similiar to albs.  They were taking the last keep before moving on to the relic, and our 8man started picking off their backline and reinforcements repeatedly.  At one point, we ran in the keep, killed only the zerg leader, sat on his corpse a few times, and ran out.  The hibs pushed the albs out of the keep, and we killed what they missed.  Not a single hib attacked us, just a few happy /wave or /hug. 

if you are a skilled group you can easily take out a crappy zerg in WvW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzDx6v_yWdA

this holds true for most games though a skilled few can dominate a bunch of poorly played characters. What i like to see is more incentives for running in small groups.. in GW2 a small group of skilled players can steamroll bigger groups but it's always easier to have a much larger group and just steamroll even faster(this is true for most large scale PVP games).. the incentives need to be there to encourage more small group play.