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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Focus on RVR, Everyhting else is a "waste."

20 posts found
  Stiler

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/19/05
Posts: 592

 
OP  3/17/13 7:17:38 PM#1

I've been seeing this brought up more and more lately from some people.  Anytime people are mentioning idea's that aren't directly tied to strict RVR mechanics (IE holidays in game/celebrations) they come out with "This isn't part of RVR, so screw it, it has no place in CU" or something similar.

 

While yes, the point of the game is RVR and that's the "focus" do some people not realize that an mmo needs variety. and different things to do from time to time.  Providing players with a few things, little "details" that add to the immersion of the world and lore/setting, those things have their place in CU, just like most mmo's.

Using dyes for armour, customizting your look, decorating your house, structures (that have no gameplay changes, IE costmetic) also have 0 to do with RVR, but still it is something many expect in the game.

Part of what makes MMO's great, and different from other genre's of games, is that they have the ability to make the worlds feel more alive, dynamic, changing, and having other types of things in the worlds aside from simply "killing other players" can add to the world in many ways, more then some people can believe. 

I'm not saying the game should focus on these things, but that there should be SOME room for a few small details and things which provide other activies for players, add touches to the game world and enhance the immersin to the world and gameplay experience. RVR is the focus, and the "meat" of CU yes, but it still has room for rpg style mechanics that benefit the game as a whole.

  Anidein

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/13
Posts: 14

3/17/13 9:21:55 PM#2

I'm not quite sold on the "RVR Only" idea.  The game genre itself was brought up solely on PVE aka Muds.  There is something to be desired about all PVP, so said most of the PVP games that have been made.  Warhammer Online itself along with DAOC were designed around PVE and RVR mix, so why fix what isn't broken? 

 

Maybe some games take either to the extreme but there isnt much these games are not doing wrong since most of them are not only able to thrive, but excell.   On top of this, there have been numorous PVP and RVR only games that have died before their first free month was used.  I am fearing that Camelot Unchained would become another one of these games before it is able to take off from the runway itself.

  drakon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 114

3/17/13 10:20:39 PM#3
I don't think many people are saying "RvR only".  The problem is some of the ideas floated around would use up a TON of resources, in an already small dev team, for things a lot of people don't want.  Like holidy event grinding or making a native mac client.  I don't think anyone has a problem with things like dyes.
  Nihilist

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 555

3/17/13 11:54:50 PM#4

The point of the RVR focus is to create content that is interesting on a long term basis that doesn't require tons of resources.

A standard AAA PVE focused mmo costs 100-200 million if you go by SWTOR and GW2 and a lof of people finish all of that content in 30-60 days then QQ about no endgame.

  SBE1

Novice Member

Joined: 6/05/06
Posts: 339

3/18/13 12:05:48 AM#5

Well, the "end game" is now "the game".   What's interesting about it is that I probably spent about 5% of my total time playing the pre-game, and 95% of my time playing the end game.   Yet, the costs of the pre-game make up about 95% of the budget and about 5% of the budget was typically devoted to the end game.  It seems to work well in EvE.

So, we shall see if having 95% of the budget dedicated to the end game in an MMO works again or is EvE just an annomoly like WoW was an annomoly for PvE focused MMOs.   Funny how people went from trying to copy WoW to now trying to copy EvE.

  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

3/18/13 12:16:51 AM#6

I think a lot of people forget that discussion on anything that could potential generate ideas for City State Entertainment is a good thing and not a "waste of resources".  In my opinion, the most outlandish idea could potentially lead to an amazing idea that's easily implemented.

CSE will focus on implemented core mechanics and polishing everything for release.  After release, though, they'll have to continue to provide additional content, refine existing content, and always look for the horizons.  That's where the holiday/events poll comes in, as well a few other discussions.

@Stiler:  There's a few posters that consistently fall into the negative nancy category and provide very little to the community itself.  I wouldn't worry about it, personally.  It's healthy to have disagreements and argreements; especially voices that say, "Hey.. this needs to be a stretch goal and not in at release." or the more common, "It's a waste of time (at this point).".

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  Zinzan

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/06
Posts: 1368

3/18/13 1:34:05 AM#7
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

I think a lot of people forget that discussion on anything that could potential generate ideas for City State Entertainment is a good thing and not a "waste of resources".  In my opinion, the most outlandish idea could potentially lead to an amazing idea that's easily implemented.

CSE will focus on implemented core mechanics and polishing everything for release.  After release, though, they'll have to continue to provide additional content, refine existing content, and always look for the horizons.  That's where the holiday/events poll comes in, as well a few other discussions.

@Stiler:  There's a few posters that consistently fall into the negative nancy category and provide very little to the community itself.  I wouldn't worry about it, personally.  It's healthy to have disagreements and argreements; especially voices that say, "Hey.. this needs to be a stretch goal and not in at release." or the more common, "It's a waste of time (at this point).".

While i agree with the sentiment, how many mmo's actually deliver at anything other than a snails pace on content updates and improvements? And those who do, how much of this "new" content was simply witheld from release to be trickle fed afterwards to keep players playing?

DAoC was pretty poor with seasonal events and WAR kept content back just to use as holiday gimmicks.

Once the KS has the game released there is really little incentive for the devs to maintain anything unless it proves profitable, this is the risk with KS projects and the far bigger risk of mmo KS's....they already have your money so have already covered their costs.

Name a single pvp only mmo that has a subscription fee that has maintained a sizable subs base? There simply isn't one and one of the main reasons why is because people get bored of pvp and want to pve sometimes. Why pay a subs fee when they can go play GW2 or PS2 for free and why pay to play what is shaping-up to be a DAoC clone (im not happy about this at all and pray im wrong, but the more we learn, the more it seems like they are drawing on DAoC's core) when the original still exists and has many healthy freeshards?

The monthly subs model is dying for anything other than the top mmo's which provide for both pve and pvp and unless they change their tune and release with a more modern payment system this game is in trouble before it's even in beta.

Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  meddyck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1130

3/18/13 5:47:52 AM#8
Originally posted by Zinzan

Name a single pvp only mmo that has a subscription fee that has maintained a sizable subs base? EVE maybe? There simply isn't one and one of the main reasons why is because people get bored of pvp and want to pve sometimes. Why pay a subs fee when they can go play GW2 Because it sucks or PS2 Because it's scifi not fantasy plus I hear it's overrun with cheaters also SOE for free and why pay to play what is shaping-up to be a DAoC clone (im not happy about this at all and pray im wrong, but the more we learn, the more it seems like they are drawing on DAoC's core) when the original still exists and has many healthy freeshards? Because a DAOC clone is exactly what many of us want. If DAOC had modern graphics and UI and was being actively developed and wasn't owned by EA, many of us would still play it.

The monthly subs model is dying for anything other than the top mmo's which provide for both pve and pvp and unless they change their tune and release with a more modern payment system this game is in trouble before it's even in beta. Mark has said the sub will be less than the usual PvE MMO's $14.95/mo so that should help. I do share the concern about whether having a sub for a PvP-only game is a model that will work. The game won't release for 2 years though. By the time it does the industry may have changed to the point that Mark reconsiders his payment model. Or he could start with a monthly sub then switch to B2P + cash shop if it isn't working.

 

Camelot Unchained Founder
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  gipfeli

Novice Member

Joined: 3/13/08
Posts: 31

3/18/13 1:42:50 PM#9

 

Originally posted by Stiler

I've been seeing this brought up more and more lately from some people.  Anytime people are mentioning idea's that aren't directly tied to strict RVR mechanics (IE holidays in game/celebrations) they come out with "This isn't part of RVR, so screw it, it has no place in CU" or something similar.

 

While yes, the point of the game is RVR and that's the "focus" do some people not realize that an mmo needs variety. and different things to do from time to time.  Providing players with a few things, little "details" that add to the immersion of the world and lore/setting, those things have their place in CU, just like most mmo's.

Using dyes for armour, customizting your look, decorating your house, structures (that have no gameplay changes, IE costmetic) also have 0 to do with RVR, but still it is something many expect in the game.

Part of what makes MMO's great, and different from other genre's of games, is that they have the ability to make the worlds feel more alive, dynamic, changing, and having other types of things in the worlds aside from simply "killing other players" can add to the world in many ways, more then some people can believe. 

I'm not saying the game should focus on these things, but that there should be SOME room for a few small details and things which provide other activies for players, add touches to the game world and enhance the immersin to the world and gameplay experience. RVR is the focus, and the "meat" of CU yes, but it still has room for rpg style mechanics that benefit the game as a whole.

Since I am one with such a Thread I've exerienced the same. Thank you very much for opening this Thread .. if you hadn't done it, I had :)

 

Originally posted by Anidein

I'm not quite sold on the "RVR Only" idea.  The game genre itself was brought up solely on PVE aka Muds.  There is something to be desired about all PVP, so said most of the PVP games that have been made.  Warhammer Online itself along with DAOC were designed around PVE and RVR mix, so why fix what isn't broken? 

 

Maybe some games take either to the extreme but there isnt much these games are not doing wrong since most of them are not only able to thrive, but excell.   On top of this, there have been numorous PVP and RVR only games that have died before their first free month was used.  I am fearing that Camelot Unchained would become another one of these games before it is able to take off from the runway itself.

If RVR is really the only thing availlable in CU i fear the same. I hope my stomach is wrong because i want CU to succeed SOOO BAD! But recent exeriences taught us so. I hope there will be some different stuff to do besides RVR.

 

 

Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

I think a lot of people forget that discussion on anything that could potential generate ideas for City State Entertainment is a good thing and not a "waste of resources".  In my opinion, the most outlandish idea could potentially lead to an amazing idea that's easily implemented.

CSE will focus on implemented core mechanics and polishing everything for release.  After release, though, they'll have to continue to provide additional content, refine existing content, and always look for the horizons.  That's where the holiday/events poll comes in, as well a few other discussions.

@Stiler:  There's a few posters that consistently fall into the negative nancy category and provide very little to the community itself.  I wouldn't worry about it, personally.  It's healthy to have disagreements and argreements; especially voices that say, "Hey.. this needs to be a stretch goal and not in at release." or the more common, "It's a waste of time (at this point).".

 

And since they are in the beginning phase and active on this Forum (seen Mark Jacobs posting here and there), we have the chance to tell what we like / dislike. This feels very refreshing since not many developers doing this so actively. It's best to bring idea's to the developers at the beginning, not when it's almost done. I also agree very much with your last part of your post. FOCUS on the MAIN part of the game.. and then coloring everything else :>

 

 

Originally posted by Zinzan

DAoC was pretty poor with seasonal events and WAR kept content back just to use as holiday gimmicks.

Once the KS has the game released there is really little incentive for the devs to maintain anything unless it proves profitable, this is the risk with KS projects and the far bigger risk of mmo KS's....they already have your money so have already covered their costs.

Name a single pvp only mmo that has a subscription fee that has maintained a sizable subs base? There simply isn't one and one of the main reasons why is because people get bored of pvp and want to pve sometimes. Why pay a subs fee when they can go play GW2 or PS2 for free and why pay to play what is shaping-up to be a DAoC clone (im not happy about this at all and pray im wrong, but the more we learn, the more it seems like they are drawing on DAoC's core) when the original still exists and has many healthy freeshards?

The monthly subs model is dying for anything other than the top mmo's which provide for both pve and pvp and unless they change their tune and release with a more modern payment system this game is in trouble before it's even in beta.

Oh this depends very much on the developer itself of course :)

Let's take a look at Mark Jacob.. what happens if he would really take the rail you mentioned? What if there won't be done anything else after release?

 

That man also have an image to lose. A gaming companies name tear to the dirt would be a way bigger loss then just maintaining the game as the customer like it to.. darn ask Bioware!

If you buy a bad TV somewhere you wouldn't buy another one at the same shop, would you?

You can use your formula at an absolutely unknown gamer's company.. but hardly on a well known.

 

 

keep clean!

 

Gipfeli

  Ellya

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/13
Posts: 99

3/18/13 4:59:24 PM#10
Originally posted by SBE1

Well, the "end game" is now "the game".   What's interesting about it is that I probably spent about 5% of my total time playing the pre-game, and 95% of my time playing the end game.   Yet, the costs of the pre-game make up about 95% of the budget and about 5% of the budget was typically devoted to the end game.  It seems to work well in EvE.

So, we shall see if having 95% of the budget dedicated to the end game in an MMO works again or is EvE just an annomoly like WoW was an annomoly for PvE focused MMOs.   Funny how people went from trying to copy WoW to now trying to copy EvE.

I am starting to believe that CU actually will have some similarities to Eve. There will be land to claim and build on, and those lands will need to be defended by guilds, alliances, perhaps some realm-wide council of sorts.  The game will be made by the players, and there will be politics, intrigue, spying, infiltration, battles and a deep crafting system by which everything in the game will be made.

Pretty Eve-like, in fact.  :)

  Foggye

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 92

3/18/13 8:54:21 PM#11
Name a single pvp only mmo that has a subscription fee that has maintained a sizable subs base? There simply isn't one and one of the main reasons why is because people get bored of pvp and want to pve sometimes. Why pay a subs fee when they can go play GW2 or PS2 for free and why pay to play what is shaping-up to be a DAoC clone (im not happy about this at all and pray im wrong, but the more we learn, the more it seems like they are drawing on DAoC's core) when the original still exists and has many healthy freeshards?

The monthly subs model is dying for anything other than the top mmo's which provide for both pve and pvp and unless they change their tune and release with a more modern payment system this game is in trouble before it's even in beta.

 

Two words: niche game.

Guy wants to make a game on his own terms, based on his own experiences, because he thinks it'll be really fun for a selective crowd whom are dying for something fundamentally different but somewhat familiar.  He came out and said that his vision didn't include PvE.  That's fine.  I've had my fill of killing mindless creatures for months for gear.  Raid guides, no thank you.  Now I'll just have to raid the enemies keep, and steal their mats and make best friends with a crafter to make that axe I always wanted.

 

I for one am fine with a subscription fee.  If the game turns out to something I enjoy, then the small monthly cost really isn't all that bad.  If anything it'll minimize random trolls, over-caffienated children, etc.   Level playing field.

 

Most importantly RvR isn't PvP.  You're not fighting in 15 minute skirmishes.  Your a member of a realm, and what you really do so contribute to that realm.  Be it fighting, questing, resource gathering, crafting, socializing, and/or defending the sacking of your neighborhood grocer by the Norse horde.   It's just the there's two other realms out there doing the same thing, and well.. they want you dead.

 

  sweetdigs

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/03
Posts: 199

3/19/13 2:28:26 PM#12

I very much agree with the OP (Stiler).   I think there should be two questions you ask yourself when adding something - (1) will this contribute somehow to rvr, and (2) will it otherwise contribute to community/durability.

Things like dyes, housing upgrades, etc.  Most of that doesn't really contribute to RvR, but it contributes to the feeling of community and the durability of the game by making players feel like they're part of the world.  From Mark's comments, I'm pretty sure that making this a world that you feel like you live in is a pretty high priority, and possibly as much a priority as RvR. 

That is why I think we will see *some* PvE in the game, whether it's for just gathering crafting materials or just to make the world feel more alive.  A world without any mobs would feel very empty.

  PerfArt

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

3/19/13 3:54:18 PM#13
I am very confident that there will be PvE content. It will just not be in the traditional sense we are used to. Dynamic events, dragon attacks, et al.

I think they want a player-driven game, but that doesn't mean that they won't throw some weird shit at us.

Plus, Darkness Falls. I know in my bones that we will see some form of this.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  evil13

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 359

3/19/13 5:38:58 PM#14

It will be interesting, but with no levels, no exp to gain and no item drops from npcs, what would you want from pve (and why would people participate in it?) some cool stuff like random encounters and dragon attacks certainly sound fun. But frinding mobs (or quests ala wow) is apparently out.

Oh, and they have to go with a subscription and not a cash shop, regardless of what they want. A cash shop would mean that people who spend money must be able to kill free players with ease (otherwise why spend) which throws away any notion of class balance or balance in general. And while it may work, in the sense that the devs make money (especially short term) but it ruins rvr and as the free players get fed up and quit, the paying players have less fodder to slaughter, and so they quit too, then the game dies.

  fierce750

Novice Member

Joined: 4/13/05
Posts: 36

3/19/13 7:14:09 PM#15
Originally posted by Stiler

I've been seeing this brought up more and more lately from some people.  Anytime people are mentioning idea's that aren't directly tied to strict RVR mechanics (IE holidays in game/celebrations) they come out with "This isn't part of RVR, so screw it, it has no place in CU" or something similar.

 

While yes, the point of the game is RVR and that's the "focus" do some people not realize that an mmo needs variety. and different things to do from time to time.  Providing players with a few things, little "details" that add to the immersion of the world and lore/setting, those things have their place in CU, just like most mmo's.

Using dyes for armour, customizting your look, decorating your house, structures (that have no gameplay changes, IE costmetic) also have 0 to do with RVR, but still it is something many expect in the game.

Part of what makes MMO's great, and different from other genre's of games, is that they have the ability to make the worlds feel more alive, dynamic, changing, and having other types of things in the worlds aside from simply "killing other players" can add to the world in many ways, more then some people can believe. 

I'm not saying the game should focus on these things, but that there should be SOME room for a few small details and things which provide other activies for players, add touches to the game world and enhance the immersin to the world and gameplay experience. RVR is the focus, and the "meat" of CU yes, but it still has room for rpg style mechanics that benefit the game as a whole.

I am having a real tough time with the No PVE bit.

Everyone wants DAOC2 so why change the formula of what made the original so fantastic?

Why not offer everyone something? My wife LOVES PVE, my RL friends love PVE, hell I love PVE and im pretty sure we aren't the only few people that love PVE games.

If all there is to do is RVR or Craft then what's there to do when you get bored?

At least give PVE minded people a chance to group up together to go get mats and stuff from PVE mobs.

 

  Set_in_Ink

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/13
Posts: 48

3/19/13 7:20:11 PM#16
I by no means intend this to be a rude post, but if you are bored of the RvR or crafting compenents of the game, then may I suggest going out for the evening instead?  A pub, movie, show, something random out on the town.  If you get so bored of the game for long periods of time, it may not be for you, and that happens.  The team has come together to make an RvR game and have said they are willing to distant potential customers in order to make what they want.

'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes

  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

3/19/13 7:46:31 PM#17
Originally posted by fierce750

I am having a real tough time with the No PVE bit.

Everyone wants DAOC2 so why change the formula of what made the original so fantastic?

Why not offer everyone something? My wife LOVES PVE, my RL friends love PVE, hell I love PVE and im pretty sure we aren't the only few people that love PVE games.

If all there is to do is RVR or Craft then what's there to do when you get bored?

At least give PVE minded people a chance to group up together to go get mats and stuff from PVE mobs.

 

 

Mark has mentioned dragons and various other random chaotic events, as well as redintroducing a potential darkness falls.  At the moment, though, he has confirmed RVR and crafting; what he hasn't confirmed is to what extent PvE will be present within CU.

Like Set_In_Fire pointed out, CU may not be for you.  Mark has hinted at a tiered subscription rate, which may just include access to RvR or something, which would allow you to go PvE your heart out in Everquest II, WoW, or something else.

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  Set_in_Ink

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/13
Posts: 48

3/19/13 7:58:34 PM#18
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

Like Set_In_Fire pointed out, CU may not be for you. 

Ahem.  Fire bad, ink pretty.

'I think that there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.' -Sherlock Holmes

  Foggye

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 92

3/19/13 8:03:09 PM#19
Originally posted by Set_in_Ink
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

Like Set_In_Fire pointed out, CU may not be for you. 

Ahem.  Fire bad, ink pretty.

I don't know... Set_in_Fire has a ring to it.  You may want to consider a name change ;)

  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

3/19/13 8:42:29 PM#20
Originally posted by Set_in_Ink
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

Like Set_In_Fire pointed out, CU may not be for you. 

Ahem.  Fire bad, ink pretty.

 

My bad :P

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.