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World of Warcraft

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General Discussion  » Could a Vanilla WoW clone out do MoP?

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96 posts found
  expresso

Tipster

Joined: 3/10/10
Posts: 2106

3/17/13 5:48:26 AM#21
OP - It's not the content, systems or mechanics of Vanilla you crave its the feeling you had while playing vanillia when it was all fresh and new - you'll never get that back even with vanillia servers.
  delete5230

Elite Member

Joined: 8/15/07
Posts: 2535

3/17/13 6:00:05 AM#22
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Originally posted by expresso
OP - It's not the content, systems or mechanics of Vanilla you crave its the feeling you had while playing vanillia when it was all fresh and new - you'll never get that back even with vanillia servers.

I Disagree actually, having played a vanilla server it is a hell of a lot of fun, partially because of the sentiment, partially because of the great story telling and partially because there is no pressure to rush through the content. 

I totally agree with you Bladestorm :)

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1606

3/17/13 6:03:59 AM#23


Originally posted by Dragonantis
Who wants an MMO that would never evolve?

This....and the fact that many players will keep comparing it to WOW, like the Op, and therefore not giving it a real chance.

Just let that classic Wow of yours be a fond memory, it isn't coming back.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  Yaevindusk

Elite Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1198

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

3/17/13 6:10:56 AM#24

 

Speaking strictly on the topic at hand and not the information therein, the prospect of having a new game that is "near identical" to how Vanilla WoW was would probably not do well at all.

This is simply because people are mainly thinking of it with nostalgia and not remembering just how bad Vanilla was.  The only real fond memories are of the "fresh" and "new" feel some systems had (a feeling which cannot be replicated unless you view copying Vanilla WoW to meaning making something completely different that feels fresh) or the community and friends people remember during that time that no longer play or have changed along with the game as a whole.

In terms of difficulty only 00.05% of the population actually raided the high end raids like AQ and Nax, of which caused the vast majority of those guilds to split apart due to the difficulty.  Though honestly, when compared today's MMO raider, the content wouldn't be challenging simply because people are used to the whole raiding system; the whole scene was under developed in terms of the pool of players they could invite, and it's much easier to get people who know what they're doing.  This is especially true with the addons such as DBM and many others that just weren't available back then.

With PvP all there really was, was either ganking low levels or the whole back and forth in Hillsbrad and the conflict in STV.  When BGs were introduced most of the players just grinded that like crazy for both the titles and the new gear that they could et with about six to nine months of work.  While the prospect of it was amazing, most would not give a game the time of day that would take such dedication just to get a single piece of equipment.  It would have a lot of old school MMO veterans playing it, but they are outnumbered a hundred to one in today's market, and most weren't even around for the days of Ultima Online or before all these instant gratification that most expect now.

The last game that was really hard, almost needlessly hard and required months and years just to level up crafting professions and combat was Final Fantasy XIV.  We all know how that ended, and just how many people hated that game.  It restricted people from even getting levels with the fatigue system, making it so they had to wait weeks to get another level.  They even made it a pain to get around from one place to the next.  Granted most who enjoy a challenge stayed with the game and it improved over time.  It was an accomplishment to have a max level, a few high level professions, and your artifact armor.  You could proudly wear it in town or just riding around on your chocobo; you could help people by giving them free repairs on their armor (as players repaired for other players if they have a very high skill in that particular craft: I.E. if cloth was torn, a tailor, armor... a blacksmith, weapons... a weaponsmith... etc.).  You were thanked, and you constantly read complaints of how people will never become a crafter because it took too long and was too boring to do so; such things made you even more proud of your accomplishment and everytime you helped someone you felt good about it.  But it still was hated on by most people, and it did over all make some pretty bad choices that may have turned of even those who enjoy games blatantly taking a long time to get ample progression.  It's one reason why we now have A Realm Reborn, which is a complete overhaul of the game with a new engine and pretty much 90% of what they had scrapped since people don't like long lasting challenge (at least those who spoke with their wallets).  This doesn't mean that ARR won't have challenges, but it could be said that the same pride of accomplishment will probably fade in time as things will be made easier than they were in the past so that more people will actually try it.

Games such as Ultima Online and FFXI where it took a year to get something special done are a thing of the past since WoW moved in.  They are a cherished memory for most, but for all the bad WoW did, it did make the MMO scene it's own genre and caught the attention of big time publishers and investors (I've seen dozens of MMOs that couldn't get funding back in thre day due to lack of investor interest; Trials of Ascension was one in the early 2000's).  Luckily the idea of becoming the "WoW' killer is starting to fade and people are trying to bring fresh air into the games and even provide new payment options.

WoW very much had systems in place such as the above, of which they changed with patches and expansions as time went on until they implemented flying mounts and made just about everything thoughtless and done for you with the touch of a single button.  The addons contributed to this in a lot of ways, as the game had to be balanced for those who use "vanilla" systems without alterations, and mods could tell you what you need to do when you need to do it (some even show on screen what ability you should use next for optimal performance so it's just a game of simon says).  These same people say it's too easy despite using system to make it thusly.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvK8fua6O64

Here's an interesting video that pertains to WoW and the industry in itself.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

3/17/13 6:19:03 AM#25
Originally posted by Dragonantis
Who wants an MMO that would never evolve?

Every UO and EQ player who ever lived? Every SWG player who complained about NGE, DAoC player who complained about ToA, WoW player who complained about WOTLK...

I could go on, the evidence just surrounds us here each and every day.

Is this a trick question, or a quiz?

  expresso

Tipster

Joined: 3/10/10
Posts: 2106

3/17/13 6:27:35 AM#26
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Dragonantis
Who wants an MMO that would never evolve?

Every UO and EQ player who ever lived? Every SWG player who complained about NGE, DAoC player who complained about ToA, WoW player who complained about WOTLK...

I could go on, the evidence just surrounds us here each and every day.

Is this a trick question, or a quiz?

But those people are the vocal minority who don't realy know what they're asking for, they'll hate vanillia they just dont know it yet.

Fro example;

I remember in vanillia WoW I would see a chest in a small enemy camp, I would do anything to get to that chest cus im my mind that could be the one chest with some ultra rare items in when in reality it had some health pots and some wool.  Not long after I cared not for the chests cus I knew what they were about.  On vanillia server I am still going to skip the chests cus I still know what they're about.   Again it's the felling not the experience people are craving, and you cannot get that feeling back without a lobotomy.

  DeniZg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/29/12
Posts: 508

3/17/13 6:39:27 AM#27

I've played WoW from vanilla to mid WotLK on PVP server and it was the best gaming time I've ever had. Tried vanilla and TBC servers recently, but couldn't get past first ciuple of levels, due to boring and slow combat.

My 0.02$ - TBC WoW could work easily IMHO, but with some changes:

  • combat has to be faster, no more whacking on a mob for half a minute
  • PVP has to be balanced while battlegrounds and arena gear has to be normalized. E.g. you would still get better and prettier gear from PVP, but that gear would not be usable in Arena and BG, but in PVE and open world PVP.
  delete5230

Elite Member

Joined: 8/15/07
Posts: 2535

3/17/13 6:45:10 AM#28
Originally posted by expresso
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Dragonantis
Who wants an MMO that would never evolve?

Every UO and EQ player who ever lived? Every SWG player who complained about NGE, DAoC player who complained about ToA, WoW player who complained about WOTLK...

I could go on, the evidence just surrounds us here each and every day.

Is this a trick question, or a quiz?

But those people are the vocal minority who don't realy know what they're asking for, they'll hate vanillia they just dont know it yet.

Fro example;

I remember in vanillia WoW I would see a chest in a small enemy camp, I would do anything to get to that chest cus im my mind that could be the one chest with some ultra rare items in when in reality it had some health pots and some wool.  Not long after I cared not for the chests cus I knew what they were about.  On vanillia server I am still going to skip the chests cus I still know what they're about.   Again it's the felling not the experience people are craving, and you cannot get that feeling back without a lobotomy.

But on the flip side, you get community back and a game that is 50% harder, many quest are requiring two or more and that's how you make friends. Remember that cave of Orcs you need to go in?...Well ask someone in that zone, don't by shy. Shy is an illusion that can be overcome. I for one and most everyone will come running if we get that local spam " please help me " players will come running.  Guess what, in most cases you now have another friend to add to your list. I know I'm experience that great feeling right now, however I can't talk about it here. Anyway many people are shy, but a Great many are not and like to play an mmo as it was intended to play.

Now we would not be having this discussion or topic if WoW had not changed this formula and simply added content. Or at least if we had one, JUST ONE mmo that plays like an mmo.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3291

3/17/13 6:48:57 AM#29
Originally posted by DeniZg

I've played WoW from vanilla to mid WotLK on PVP server and it was the best gaming time I've ever had. Tried vanilla and TBC servers recently, but couldn't get past first ciuple of levels, due to boring and slow combat.

My 0.02$ - TBC WoW could work easily IMHO, but with some changes:

  • combat has to be faster, no more whacking on a mob for half a minute
  • PVP has to be balanced while battlegrounds and arena gear has to be normalized. E.g. you would still get better and prettier gear from PVP, but that gear would not be usable in Arena and BG, but in PVE and open world PVP.

i have to disagree bigtime, tbc speed is fine, killnig faster means zerging in other words, means content becomes meanlingless (il just go on ahead and 2 shot everything.  saying I want to play tbc, but oh I want it to change to play like wotlk or mop etc is daft, play those games if you want that style, if yuo want tbc style play tbc etc.  incidently on a fixed tbc server (or any other fixed themepark) it is easy to balance pvp - because there is not a new tier every 3 months, interesting eh :)

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  kitarad

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1254

3/17/13 6:56:29 AM#30
For about a week may be but then you will have all the experience since 2004 in other games to come spoil stuff. It does not work you can never go back.

  TheHavok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/04
Posts: 2423

"Free crack and everybody gets laid."

3/17/13 6:56:50 AM#31
Originally posted by expresso
OP - It's not the content, systems or mechanics of Vanilla you crave its the feeling you had while playing vanillia when it was all fresh and new - you'll never get that back even with vanillia servers.

^This.

Because if you played every expansion since Vanilla, you will see how things have actually improved over time.  MOP is superior to Vanilla in every category, the only exception being world pvp raids - its just that Vanilla was our first dive into WoW and its dear to everybody's heart.

Also: A lot of MMOs offer an option to play the 'vanilla' version.  Everquest has project '99, SWG has SWGEMU, and WoW has multiple Vanilla private servers.  People don't flood to these private servers because they already ate up all the content back in 2004-2006!

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

3/17/13 7:08:29 AM#32
Originally posted by expresso

But those people are the vocal minority who don't realy know what they're asking for, they'll hate vanillia they just dont know it yet.

Fro example;

I remember in vanillia WoW I would see a chest in a small enemy camp, I would do anything to get to that chest cus im my mind that could be the one chest with some ultra rare items in when in reality it had some health pots and some wool.  Not long after I cared not for the chests cus I knew what they were about.  On vanillia server I am still going to skip the chests cus I still know what they're about.   Again it's the felling not the experience people are craving, and you cannot get that feeling back without a lobotomy.

Oh, I firmly believe that reactionaries should be forced to sleep in the beds they make.

To me, the return of "Vanilla" WoW also includes a necessary return to Vanilla server crashes, Vanilla incomplete classes, Vanilla bugs, virtually useless warlocks, druids and one-spec shaman...stunlocks, broken Charge, vanishing boats, five-dismount griffon routes, etc.

Money where your mouth is, guys. Accepting the bad as well as the good is part of this deal.

And when it doesn't work, because that "new game feeling" came more from the people you were playing with (and genuine at-the-time novelty), instead of the gane systems?

Maybe you'll learn the same lesson players as those "classic" servers already learned in other games.

There is no magic bullet.

  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 4108

3/17/13 7:28:35 AM#33
Nope.  I'm not afraid of change.  That being said, do I wish the game gave me the "feeling" that BC did?  Yes.  Will that happen?  Not sure, probably not.  I still like the game and love watching it grow and evolve but I realize that what I "felt" then is just that, a feeling.  One that comes from something being new.  What I want to see is a new world discovered through one of those portals in the BC zones that takes us to a whole new world with new enemies(third faction anyone?) and housing and a new class or 2 and so on.

http://www.twitch.tv/elockethemmoaddict

https://twitter.com/MMOAddicted

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1606

3/17/13 7:40:35 AM#34

to me the downside was catering to every player, not the casuals but giving all mounts to everyone, no wpvp anymore because of flying mounts, meeting stones ruined the dangerous trip to enemy territory dungeons.

It's more World of Instances now...
+ it's too many of everything now, too many battlegrounds, the game was more fun with less content, now you see empty zones because 99% is located in Little Tokyo.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

3/17/13 7:44:07 AM#35
Originally posted by Muke
...empty zones because 99% is located in Little Tokyo.

They repeated the Dalaran mistake, again? Glad I gave it a pass.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3566

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

3/17/13 8:27:21 AM#36
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Dragonantis
Who wants an MMO that would never evolve?

Every UO and EQ player who ever lived? Every SWG player who complained about NGE, DAoC player who complained about ToA, WoW player who complained about WOTLK...

I could go on, the evidence just surrounds us here each and every day.

Is this a trick question, or a quiz?

Every? I played UO (it was one of my first MMO games). I also played SWG (Vir wave to dear old Smed... ^^). I have no problem with "evolution" just so long as its not Ghostcrawler running it... ^^  Some games have grown better with age.  Others, not so much.

  Lugors

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/06/12
Posts: 173

3/17/13 8:57:50 AM#37

To answer the orginal question, no, it could not.

To address the points in a large sense.  It seems there is certain nostogia for gameplay that enables ganking and griefing other players.  Vanilla WoW enabled that behavior to a certain degree, and has evolved away from it in the ensuing years.  If that type of gameplay is what you crave, then certainly WoW has gone away from it.

In every other conceiveable manner, WoW has remained a moving target and added more "stuff," streamlined mechanics and become more accessable as a whole.  I for one would not want to return to: no mounts in the cities, completely imbalanced single server PvP battlegrounds, no dual specializations, no inventory magement of pets/mounts/keys etc.

 

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

3/17/13 9:03:01 AM#38
Originally posted by Wraithone
  Some games have grown better with age.  Others, not so much.
 

That would make an interesting topic, all by itself.

List the game(s) you believe have only grown better with age.

 

Why are you (or are you not) playing it/them right now?

  Worfi

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/12
Posts: 16

3/17/13 9:22:11 AM#39

Again this. 

Do you know there are now players who wish to have Cataclysam servers?

It's like this. When you start playing this game was new, you created social connections, things you like to do. Than expansion come and lot of players didn't like to do new leveling and new gear grind. It were now old. Doing new raids again give you nostaliga about old ones who were better for you because they were your first expirience. Now you realizing you are starting "new gear grind". And some of players who played with you quit the game.

That are reasons why people want vanila, tbc, wotlok etc. servers. They want to create that first exerience again and can't accept it's gone, forever. Which version of "old server" they want is most often the time when they start playing the game.

You can argue about some old featurs, but there are all still here, expanded and patched with a lot of new content. In my personal opinion game is now better than ever. The majority of problems are about server population, ratio and community on some servers.

With questing 85-90, dailys, world bosses etc. there is a lot of iniciative for players to be in Pandarian areas so that open world PvP is viable. But lot servers are one sided or players dont want to pvp. It's for player to make or find community who he like and server he like. There are RP servers and guild who still don't use dungeon finder but prefer to create their own groups and travel to dungeon and/or use meeting stones. Or players and guilds who don't do LFR but only normal and heroic raids. Maybe now there are not players standing in front of low level dungeons but there are still players in front of new raids. 

World is now so much larger than vanila so you can't expect to see old areas full of people but you can see that in Pandaria. It's an MMO. It's all about people with who you play. For sure there are some big class changes come from years and proffesion changes but imho on better. You can argue basically only about that.

With all new implementet systems and options game now have more than ever options, content and things to do for all kind of players while leveling and on end game. Except maybe for those players who dont like vertical gear progession. But this game si not for them from start.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3566

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

3/17/13 9:30:37 AM#40
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Wraithone
  Some games have grown better with age.  Others, not so much.
 

That would make an interesting topic, all by itself.

List the game(s) you believe have only grown better with age.

 

Why are you (or are you not) playing it/them right now?

Two come to mind. Asherons Call (that was my second game). It evolved into a much better game, but sadly, the graphics are WAY too dated, and I'm not interested in going back to a corpse run game at this point.  But I very much enjoyed the two years I played it.

Anarchy Online. It pretty much had to get better, as it was almost totally unplayable the first few weeks. ^^  I'm still amazed to this day, that Funcom managed to pull out of the death dive that game was in.  But again, its very dated, and well past its use by date.

Honorable mention goes to Horizons (now Istaria). It went from a badly designed, poorly coded game, to one that is obvious that its current Dev's and core players love.  It has one of the most indept crafting systems I've seen in many years.

But again, its well past its use by date.  Over the last few years I've become a gaming nomad. I play what ever game looks entertaining, as long as its entertaining, and then move on to something else.

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