Originally posted by Xobdnas

Troubled I am. Just for ganking and unfair advantages a quarter of you would use this power. A dark time this is.

But on the other end, 60% wants stealth for more strategic purposes, there is hope :D

Originally posted by Tumblebutz

Originally posted by BowbowDAoC

I wasnt try to make it that way though. My choices were  to see if people would rather see stealth used for  :

(1)purely scouting and "passive" actions,

(2) something a bit more "active" but not necessarly in combat or

(3) for combat purpose only.

It could end up being a bit of each too, but with the post that came right before the poll, i suggested some specific questions to help people have a more profound thought about stealth, rather than a simple "love or hate".

Gotcha.  That makes sense.  Maybe that's how the poll should read.  First question (in a series of questions about stealth): Should you be able to attack from stealth?  Yes/No

A very good question. However, I think for the purposes of this discussion, the real quesiton should be 'is it necessary'?

I've seen squishy melee DPS (rogue-like classes) do just fine w/ out stealth. I've also played games (including the original DAoC) in which it was possible to be sneaky, scout, and sneak up on people without relying on stealth.

I'd argue that, like taunt, stealth is one of those mechanics born out of old tech. We've grown up on it, gotten used to it, but I think it's a mistake to then assume that it's somehow necessary because 'it's always been that way'. It's one thing to want a game designed like an older game you loved. It's an entirely different thing to assume games have to be designed that way to be good.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Tumblebutz

Originally posted by BowbowDAoC

I wasnt try to make it that way though. My choices were  to see if people would rather see stealth used for  :

(1)purely scouting and "passive" actions,

(2) something a bit more "active" but not necessarly in combat or

(3) for combat purpose only.

It could end up being a bit of each too, but with the post that came right before the poll, i suggested some specific questions to help people have a more profound thought about stealth, rather than a simple "love or hate".

Gotcha.  That makes sense.  Maybe that's how the poll should read.  First question (in a series of questions about stealth): Should you be able to attack from stealth?  Yes/No

A very good question. However, I think for the purposes of this discussion, the real quesiton should be 'is it necessary'?

I've seen squishy melee DPS (rogue-like classes) do just fine w/ out stealth. I've also played games (including the original DAoC) in which it was possible to be sneaky, scout, and sneak up on people without relying on stealth.

I'd argue that, like taunt, stealth is one of those mechanics born out of old tech. We've grown up on it, gotten used to it, but I think it's a mistake to then assume that it's somehow necessary because 'it's always been that way'. It's one thing to want a game designed like an older game you loved. It's an entirely different thing to assume games have to be designed that way to be good.

Thats the exact reason why i started this topic in the first place. Stealth has been part of many mmos in the last decade, but not all of them had it designed for a specific purpose. So its a good idea to discuss WHY would CU and the players could / would want stealth to be implemented. and it all depends on the game itself headstart, the end game, the goals, the reason we fight PvP.

Knowing all that would then help to figure out HOW to implement stealth, thats the main reason of the initial post here.

we could easily think of many "new" ways to have stealth in a game.

I have plenty of ideas on how to implement stealth, depending on what purpose it should fill in the game. but its gonna be a long post when i make it ( i tend to use more words to explain myself since i'm french canadian  :P )

...and people wonder why I want to discuss stealth with our backers, want to try something outside the box, etc. This and all the other threads regarding stealth here, other forums, other games, etc. are proof that my intentions are good, Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood. :)

Back to eye-charts.

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

...and people wonder why I want to discuss stealth with our backers, want to try something outside the box, etc. This and all the other threads regarding stealth here, other forums, other games, etc. are proof that my intentions are good, Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood. :)

Back to eye-charts.

 

 

lol :)

When there's a will, there's a way :)

First two combined.  Scouting, spying, sabotage, and assasination.

Originally posted by BowbowDAoC

Originally posted by Pie_Rat

Begone with stealth in MMOs. It's stupidly unrealistic. There's no way some dude can stand 10 feet infront of me while beeing totally invisible. Unless he's wearing the One Ring of course, but that's for another game...

Now I'd have nothing against a REALISTIC form of stealth , ie: you'd have the ability to become invisible while standing in a shadow or something but running around in broad daylight totally invisible is just silly.

You are totally outisde the subject of this thread. there are many other threads that talks about liking or disliking stealth.

This thread here is mostly to talk about the various purpose could have in the game, and how it should be implemented depending of its purpose.

I'm totally within the subject of this thread. You asked what purpose we think stealth should have in your game, I answered :none.

Stealth is just, IMO, a bad concept (at least WoW type stealth). It's totally over the top unrealistic and also impossible to balance as a combat ability.

So ok, to answer your question in a little more thought out way, ok to stealth but only if it isn't used as a combat ability.

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

...and people wonder why I want to discuss stealth with our backers, want to try something outside the box, etc. This and all the other threads regarding stealth here, other forums, other games, etc. are proof that my intentions are good, Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood. :)

Back to eye-charts.

 

 

I don't wonder why, at all!

I think the idea that stealth is a product of old technology is not really accurate.  I can't think of a game (I'm sure there are a few) that doesn't have some form of stealth (or "the inability to detect" someone.)  I only say this to illustrate that it's not an outdated idea any more than having a healer or tank is.  Hell, D&D had stealth in it!  It's just part of the genre, imo.

Let's begin the discussion with the assumption that MJ will incorporate some kind of stealth (be it extremely limited, perma-stealth, or somewhere in between) into the game.

Personally, I would vote YES, you can attack from stealth.  The ensuing question would then be:

Should attacks from stealth include

A) No attacks unique to stealth.  In other words, only attacks that can also be executed when NOT stealthed.

B) Normal attacks offered in (A) but with an added damage bonus if executed from stealth.

C) Special "stealth based" attacks with high damage and/or other bonuses.  Think: Perforate Artery or Backstab.

To this question, I would vote (A) in the hopes that the lack of stealth based damage would be compensated for by providing more strategic abilities, such as the ability to sabotage siege equipment and/or the ability to scout.

Honestly, the more I think about this whole issue, the more complex it seems to become.  Good luck with this, MJ!

It IS very complex !

So we have to really think hard about it, explore all possibilites, prevent everything about it to be OP'ed, while still make it fun, useful,

alot of people like stealth, so its kind of an important issue. I think it has its place in CU too, i could even say, ESPECIALLY in CU.

Interesting discussion here.

Like a lot of posters, stealth isn't necessarily a "bad thing" in itself, but the incredible damage dealt immediately coming out of stealth usually combined with some form of stun implemented by most games is the by product in which gives stealth a bad name.  There's nothing worse than being at full life and looking over at the television screen only to glance back and realize you've already died within three seconds from some toon that slips back into the shadows thereafter.

If there is a "stealth" enabled class, it should be primarily utilized for scouting, sabotage, and infiltrating/deception.  First, let's lay down some termnology so everyone knows what I'm talking abou heret:

Scouting:  Allows players to literally scout about undetected, whether visible or slightly "invisible", in order to gain reconnaissance for their realm (or pick out higher win opportunity solo fights).

Sabotage:  Allows players to disrupt supply lines, significantly damage siege engines/doors/walls, and anything in between that has yet to be announced that could fall into this category.

Inflitrating/Deception:  "Stealth" classes bread and butter;  breaking into courtyards of keeps, climbing walls, and magically summoning 'decoys' that gain the attention of guards and players alike.

That being said, and going by Mark's intentions of minimal (polished) classes at launch, the "stealth" class could incorporate both archer and traditional "stealther" playstyles into one class.  However, what you don't want to do is go down the same path RIFT traveled down and made it so easy for one base class to jump between a couple different specs that really didn't resemble their other branches.

I posted in a stealth-related thread a couple weeks ago about my ideas, so I'll summarize them here again:

• Agility, light armor based class
• Stealth comes from hiding in shadows/near structures, but is not 100% invisible; if you're standing next to it, you can see it - completely invisible during night time day cycles
• Allow the use of poisons and diseases, or even traps if an archer
• Increased survivability through the use of damage mitigations, evasion, and summoning decoys.
• The only class capable of climbing walls into keeps, towers, and other structures
• Utilizes two primary spec trees:  Close range (dual wield or fist combat) or Ranged (short bow, long bow); both cannot be obtained, but players can dual spec to be an 'average' well rounded recon class.
  • It's likely every class will have multiple spec lines; third could be a combination style class that utilizes more magic and is a light "tank" without stealth, but still capable of climbing walls
• Introduce Sabotage:  allows the class to go completely invisible, increases movement speed by 100%, lasts 15 seconds.  While sabotage is active, the player may sabotage an enemy's siege equipment or structure's wall/door causing it to temporarily critically fail or cause significant damage.  During this time period, the player cannot attack for 20 seconds.  If sabotage is successful, stealth duration increases for an additional 5 seconds.  Cannot use in combat.  (This allows players to have both stealth, serve a purpose for the realm, additional 'get away' skill, and allow undetected scouting.)
• Introduce Deception:  allows the class to summon decoys such as carbon copies of the user to attack/confuse enemies, decoys that simulate a "1v1" fight to provoke players to add on the duel, decoy siege engines, or even decoy a multitude of fake defenders to ward off attackers.
• Reintroduce Safe Fall:  allow the class to take reduced damage from falling higher distances.
• Absolutely no high damage burst abilities directly out of stealth.

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

...and people wonder why I want to discuss stealth with our backers, want to try something outside the box, etc. This and all the other threads regarding stealth here, other forums, other games, etc. are proof that my intentions are good, Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood. :)

Back to eye-charts.

 

 

Nuke it from orbit Mark.. it is the only way to be sure

Originally posted by tlear

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

...and people wonder why I want to discuss stealth with our backers, want to try something outside the box, etc. This and all the other threads regarding stealth here, other forums, other games, etc. are proof that my intentions are good, Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood. :)

Back to eye-charts.

 

 

Nuke it from orbit Mark.. it is the only way to be sure

LOL!!!!!! Quoting one of my favorite movies of all time = awesome. Thanks!

I think that designing a mechanic with the preconcieved notion that it is implicitly overpowered is a big mistake.

SOE prenerfed the living fuck out of Infiltrators and especially their cloak in PS2, and surprise, they're the lowest avg k/d and ratio and score per minute class by a massive margin. The logout->login exploit is used by infiltrators more than anyone else in that game cause they're the most vulnerable class in most situations, and aren't even the best at what they're supposed to good at.

Before you even attempt to start designing stealth mechanic you need to clear your mind about your past experiences in games and focus on what tactics and strategy that you want stealth to make possible in a combined arms RvR game.

This game will have vast open fields, forests, keeps, towers, bridges, gates, dungeons, patrols, siege engines, wall defenses, killable npcs. I mean thats what I would at least expect there to be in the game. Since there is going to be no PvE, I would expect there to be a LOT more stuff than in DAoC.

I would expect there to be lockboxes inside of keeps where supplies for NPC's and repairs are kept. Keep dungeons where prisoners might be being kept.

Due to there being an unknowable amount of cool stuff in an RvR game that stealth can complement, I would in no way design it around what some might think would be overpowered in 1 on 1 or 8 v 8 fight. Nor would I leave it up to a player vote.

Make stealth whatever it needs to be in order for the much more important things to be awesome.

Originally posted by Hokibukisa

This game will have vast open fields, forests, keeps, towers, bridges, gates, dungeons, patrols, siege engines, wall defenses, killable npcs. I mean thats what I would at least expect there to be in the game. Since there is going to be no PvE, I would expect there to be a LOT more stuff than in DAoC.

I would expect there to be lockboxes inside of keeps where supplies for NPC's and repairs are kept. Keep dungeons where prisoners might be being kept.

 Due to there being an unknowable amount of cool stuff in an RvR game that stealth can complement, I would in no way design it around what some might think would be overpowered in 1 on 1 or 8 v 8 fight. Nor would I leave it up to a player vote.

 Make stealth whatever it needs to be in order for the much more important things to be awesome.

I agree, Hokibukisa - It might be in Mark's benefit to sit down with the CSE team and discuss what they want to accomplish with stealth from a class perspective and not necessarily as a 'invisible caster killer' class.  There's so many cool things a "stealth" class could do without it having the traditional 'burst dps out of stealth' playstyle.  

It's very much like the idea of "keeps" in pvp games; I'm working on a write up to generate some discussion on that, too.  Which is very much like what you just pointed out.  For years scientists have thought life could only exist if water also existed, but the new train of thought, which was much needed imo, is that just because we're "use to" certain things because that's all we know doesn't mean we can't think outside the box.

Originally posted by Hokibukisa

I think that designing a mechanic with the preconcieved notion that it is implicitly overpowered is a big mistake.

 

SOE prenerfed the living fuck out of Infiltrators and especially their cloak in PS2, and surprise, they're the lowest avg k/d and ratio and score per minute class by a massive margin. The logout->login exploit is used by infiltrators more than anyone else in that game cause they're the most vulnerable class in most situations, and aren't even the best at what they're supposed to good at.

 

Before you even attempt to start designing stealth mechanic you need to clear your mind about your past experiences in games and focus on what tactics and strategy that you want stealth to make possible in a combined arms RvR game.

 

This game will have vast open fields, forests, keeps, towers, bridges, gates, dungeons, patrols, siege engines, wall defenses, killable npcs. I mean thats what I would at least expect there to be in the game. Since there is going to be no PvE, I would expect there to be a LOT more stuff than in DAoC.

I would expect there to be lockboxes inside of keeps where supplies for NPC's and repairs are kept. Keep dungeons where prisoners might be being kept.

 

Due to there being an unknowable amount of cool stuff in an RvR game that stealth can complement, I would in no way design it around what some might think would be overpowered in 1 on 1 or 8 v 8 fight. Nor would I leave it up to a player vote.

 

Make stealth whatever it needs to be in order for the much more important things to be awesome.

A really good point.

First, in CU you have to remember that there are no levels, so you aren't "ganking" lowbies or anything.  So all that fear of a stealther ganking you is just that, a fear from the past.  A relic of past games that is gone.

Second, stealthers in general are weaker than visible classes (otherwise, everyone would invite stealthers into their groups).  Their advantage is stealth, allowing them to target at the optimal time. 

Thus, a stealther using no tactics whatsoever and just willy-nilly attacks anyone anytime is going to lose the majority of the time, simply because their class is weaker.  A stealther who uses tactics to select the right target and the right time to attack will usually win.   So now you want to nerf tactics?

Finally, on the front of realism.  First, you could argue that they should have to hide behind stuff.  Well, okay, but the graphics required to put tall grass, bushes and all the other things needed to make it realistic would slow down FPS to an insanely low level.  Second, if you didn't have a bunch of this stuff, then you'd make stealth worthless.   So, the compromise is to make stealth a bit unrealistic by allowing them to be invisible, where you assume they are hiding behind stuff that the game just doesn't render.

Or, you could argue that they learn a secret magic of invisibility that most wizards never learn, and that rogues hold this secret tightly and share it only with others in their guild.  

Either way, stealth isn't overpowered if not combined with decent tactics and it's not unrealistic for a fantasy game. It is a game after all, not real life.

not voting on the poll.

My opinion on the matter? i only use stealth to avoid unnecesary fights, specially in open world pvp (that can be inevitable) to stay hidden from gankers and idiots that wont let me level in peace. Since CU is pvp only i can see how usefull it can be to avoid gankers while im focusing on other stuff outside of pvp or trying to find a fair fight while stealthing looking for the right level dude to attack

Originally posted by SBE1

First, in CU you have to remember that there are no levels, so you aren't "ganking" lowbies or anything.  So all that fear of a stealther ganking you is just that, a fear from the past.  A relic of past games that is gone.

Second, stealthers in general are weaker than visible classes (otherwise, everyone would invite stealthers into their groups).  Their advantage is stealth, allowing them to target at the optimal time. 

Thus, a stealther using no tactics whatsoever and just willy-nilly attacks anyone anytime is going to lose the majority of the time, simply because their class is weaker.  A stealther who uses tactics to select the right target and the right time to attack will usually win.   So now you want to nerf tactics?

Finally, on the front of realism.  First, you could argue that they should have to hide behind stuff.  Well, okay, but the graphics required to put tall grass, bushes and all the other things needed to make it realistic would slow down FPS to an insanely low level.  Second, if you didn't have a bunch of this stuff, then you'd make stealth worthless.   So, the compromise is to make stealth a bit unrealistic by allowing them to be invisible, where you assume they are hiding behind stuff that the game just doesn't render.

Or, you could argue that they learn a secret magic of invisibility that most wizards never learn, and that rogues hold this secret tightly and share it only with others in their guild.  

Either way, stealth isn't overpowered if not combined with decent tactics and it's not unrealistic for a fantasy game. It is a game after all, not real life.

I assume you replied to a poster not to the OP, as i simply suggested a series of questions that imo needs to be answered before actually implementeing stealth.

And trust me, i love stealth myself, been a hunter that mainly scouted for years to protect our frontiers in Midgard. So i would be very if stealth was back, and useful, bu as said in the OP, before it is implemented, its role should be defined.

So far, we can see that a good majority of the voters (nearly 70% based on 68 voters at this moment) think that stealth should be in game, but with either little or no "ganking" power. That it should be used for strategic purposes, such as sabotage, traps etc. and in some cases, strategic assassinations. i'm glad to see that there is only a minority of people that sees stealth as a ganking power only.

This gives me hope.