Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

Side note: Getting best-of-everything-in-slot requires....you guessed it...GRIND! That many of you so prominently moan about.

that is because grind is what the devs throw at us, like a bone to a dog to keep it entertained. Implying that theres nothing else to do in a game. If they as developers cant be more creative about ways to exchange grind progression with something different that actually dont involve grinding over and over. Then thats not my problem. GW2 tried to do it better and did it better just by hiding numbers under a filling bar, mixing many quests into 1 huge event shared by everyone nearby and actually having a living world. Still needs improvement, tweaks and bigger and longer events that dont repeat as often but still its the best progression we have to date. Everything else is just an EQ/WoW grindfest copy, some more intense and boring than others.

They(devs)inject us with grind like a drug, i dont need grind in my game, any kind of grind. Adding lots of them jsut to make the game feel long only make the game worse. Thats not a big huge long game? thats bullcrap, if devs cant come up with enough content to justify the lenght of the progression in relation to the time they take to add new content, then just make small and short term games. Not full MMORPGs.

I dont want to sound harsh towards devs, but im not an idiot or a zombie. Im being realistic, You want my cash, make your game worthy of it. And anything that involves mindless grinding to progress through the whole game (specially a long term big mmorpg) is not worthy of time and money.

Personally with MMO's progression to me has always been leveling up and gaining notoriety in pvp. Problem nowadays is they've made leveling up a tutorial for end game raiding. It is fast, easy and you want to get it over with. I hate gear grinds, they're boring and RNG can blow me.

I miss when the max level was hard to obtain, I miss when you didn't have to be max level to do all level content. I miss when several low levels could easily gank a high level.

So to the question if everyone skips grinding, why wouldn't I? Only game that I found great for grinding was lineage 2, nothing will ever give me the rush that game did back in the Prelude-C3 era.

I level to pvp, if all of the pvpers are max level then I have no choice.

Bring back player cities and factions, open world content and pvp. To bad It'll never be in a mainstream MMO again..

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

They exist only in your head.  Thre is nothing tangible or intangible in the physical (probably ment mental) world, because they are not in the physical world.  They are only in your head.  Thoughts and preferences do not have substance.  Your actions do have substance and your actions should reflect your thoughts.  However once again thoughts change. 

They exist only in your head, there is substance to them, a repercussion only comes when you turn those thoughts into actions. 

If your views change, the physical world doesn't change, only your perception changes. 

Your thoughts are only tempered by other thoughts, in total, your thoughts determine your action and are in control of your actions. Trying to seperate individual thoughts which are not acted upon fails to acknowledge that they are simply being supressed by other thoughts, your still acting directly on one thought or another.

Beside getting horribly off subject because your thought about presenting your opinion is more important to you than your thought on the definition, circumsmtances of, and solution for grind... My post describes the relevance of grind and how identifying different perceptions, can lead to effective solutions based on the understanding of compelling content across a maximum number of preferances.

Perhaps you'll do me a favor and sort your thoughts to yourself, I don't really care if you think thoughts are tangible, relevant or real, it doesn't contribute anything to the improvement or elimination of grind.

Yes, I will "sort" my thoughts to myself.

I've stated this position many times.  There is no way to eliminate grind, because it is all perception.  The developers need to add many many activites, to prevent the players from becoming bored with the repeition, which they are doing.

The players need to recognize that it is their perception which makes a grind, which for the most part they don't.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Yes, I will "sort" my thoughts to myself.

I've stated this position many times.  There is no way to eliminate grind, because it is all perception.  The developers need to add many many activites, to prevent the players from becoming bored with the repeition, which they are doing.

The players need to recognize that it is their perception which makes a grind, which for the most part they don't.

Actually, there is a way to eliminate grind, the issue your stuck on is the total elimination of grind. Certainly there is no way to make every single person happy, but many people share appreciation for the same things, by observing the variety of preferances, and coming up with methods that satisfy the most preferances as well as inventive ways to satisfy even opposing preferances, you eliminate a lot of grind, ergo, you satisfy a lot of customers, which equals a lot of money. Just because there are small portions of very unique people who will be disatisfied no matter which avenue is taken doesn't mean you don't eliminate the most grind possible.

This nonsensical side track is akin to you being assigned to make people happy and being distracted because you can not make everyone happy... that does not mean you stop making most ppl happy by using the most effective and approved techniques, you can still make many ppl happy, and if talented, a vast majority of them, being preoccupied with the impossibility to make everyone happy is just a distraction and a waste of thought.

And just for the record, I covered this subject thoroughly in the original response, we are just satisfying your need to disagree.

Originally posted by BahamutKaiser

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Yes, I will "sort" my thoughts to myself.

I've stated this position many times.  There is no way to eliminate grind, because it is all perception.  The developers need to add many many activites, to prevent the players from becoming bored with the repeition, which they are doing.

The players need to recognize that it is their perception which makes a grind, which for the most part they don't.

Actually, there is a way to eliminate grind, the issue your stuck on is the total elimination of grind. Certainly there is no way to make every single person happy, but many people share appreciation for the same things, by observing the variety of preferances, and coming up with methods that satisfy the most preferances as well as inventive ways to satisfy even opposing preferances, you eliminate a lot of grind, ergo, you satisfy a lot of customers, which equals a lot of money. Just because there are small portions of very unique people who will be disatisfied no matter which avenue is taken doesn't mean you don't eliminate the most grind possible.

This nonsensical side track is akin to you being assigned to make people happy and being distracted because you can not make everyone happy... that does not mean you stop making most ppl happy by using the most effective and approved techniques, you can still make many ppl happy, and if talented, a vast majority of them, being preoccupied with the impossibility to make everyone happy is just a distraction and a waste of thought.

And just for the record, I covered this subject thoroughly in the original response, we are just satisfying your need to disagree.

 I'm glad your pointing out things that I am stuck on although I completely disagree that I am stuck on anything.  I have not ever nor implied that there is a way or I am trying to make everyone happy. I have not ever stated nor implied that anyone should ever even pay attention to the small percentage or outliers of any group.

Yes many people appreciate similiar things.  However once again it is still perception, if someone does something long enough, for most people it will start to become monotonous and unpleasant, ergo a grind.  This is where the developer comes in with a variety of tasks.  The player still needs to take responsibility for their actions and there thoughts, and recognize that the grind is largely because of the way they are choosing to play.

Intersting side tangents you have going on there with things I have never stated or implied though.

edit - anyway I'm off to bed.  I'll be glad to continue this conversation on how I'm tyring to please everyone, how you mangle definitions and your metaphysical manifestations of thoughts tomorrow.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 I'm glad your pointing out things that I am stuck on although I completely disagree that I am stuck on anything.  I have not ever nor implied that there is a way or I am trying to make everyone happy. I have not ever stated nor implied that anyone should ever even pay attention to the small percentage or outliers of any group.

Yes many people appreciate similiar things.  However once again it is still perception, if someone does something long enough, for most people it will start to become monotonous and unpleasant, ergo a grind.  This is where the developer comes in with a variety of tasks.  The player still needs to take responsibility for their actions and there thoughts, and recognize that the grind is largely because of the way they are choosing to play.

Intersting side tangents you have going on there with things I have never stated or implied though.

LOL, OK guy who has his opinion of what grind is in his quote, think whatever you will, I don't need you to understand what is widely held and understood in marketing, psychology and philosophy, believe what you want, based on your opinion of thought, you can't be right or wrong anyway.

Originally posted by BahamutKaiser

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 I'm glad your pointing out things that I am stuck on although I completely disagree that I am stuck on anything.  I have not ever nor implied that there is a way or I am trying to make everyone happy. I have not ever stated nor implied that anyone should ever even pay attention to the small percentage or outliers of any group.

Yes many people appreciate similiar things.  However once again it is still perception, if someone does something long enough, for most people it will start to become monotonous and unpleasant, ergo a grind.  This is where the developer comes in with a variety of tasks.  The player still needs to take responsibility for their actions and there thoughts, and recognize that the grind is largely because of the way they are choosing to play.

Intersting side tangents you have going on there with things I have never stated or implied though.

LOL, OK guy who has his opinion of what grind is in his quote, think whatever you will, I don't need you to understand what is widely held and understood in marketing, psychology and philosophy, believe what you want, based on your opinion of thought, you can't be right or wrong anyway.

 OK one last quote.  That isn't my definition, look up the word.  Words have meaning, grind is to wear down, a monotonous task.  We didn't invent a completely new word, we took a word that was allready there, that has meaning, and used it for gaming.

I have taken many philosophy and psychology classes.  I also work very closely with many psychologists and psychiatrist.  Every single one of them will tell you that you are responsible for your own thoughts and that you can change your thoughts, if you do not like something it is up to you to either change it, or change how you perceive it, or you accept it.  That is the basis behind most psychotherapeutic techniques such as CBT, DBT, narrative, expressive and positive pscyotherapy - that you can change your thoughts, and you can change your actions.

I am wrong many times, and yes our thoughts can and often are wrong, but so far the clinical and empirical reserach available sides with me.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Lot of people in the community say they enjoy the old school grinding that progression required in older MMOs.

But what if the same game offered options to players to choose to skip that grind?

would most of these people that enjoy the grind, use this option to skip the grind? I believe most people would.

but if that were the case, than that would mean "the grind" really wasn't enjoyable to begin with.

 

example:

if a MMO had 100 levels and each level took a really long time time to level, and could be set back by death Penality.

Most effective way to level is by mob grinding.

this fits old school grind model.

but add the option for players to skip all the leveling "if they choose"

how many fans of this old school mob level grinding, would use this option?

 

Doesn't seem fun, if willing to skip it.

playing Tetris,if I am having fun, why would I want to skip the fun? No point of that unless I wasn't having fun doing whatever that is.

but in MMO the grinding has been held up as being the greatest thing ever, but if most people would skip it at a heart beat if given the choice, that obviously its not as enjoyable as people believe.

This almost had me speechless, almost.  The "game" is playing something and completing it.  If you had a button to complete it, it would make the playing pointless.  Sure, many people might press the button but what type of real satisfaction did they get other than saying they beat something that took no effort.  I see what you were peicing together but it's a circular argument.

I would fall into the catagory of wanting something a little more "old school" but not because I enjoyed something that wasn't fun.  I liked that progressing was slower so it felt worth more.  What's the point of even having levels if it can be donw within a week? I think the trick is to find fun gameplay, or combinations of gameplay, and then stretch it out.  Yes, have the best of both worlds

Originally posted by Jackdog
in a FPS you are born into the world with all your abilities, in a RPG you evolve. To evolve you have to play or "grind" live with it or go play an FPS

That isnt exactly true...

Grind is when you repeat the same thing over and over, may that be mobgrinding, repetetive quests, dailies, dungeons or whatever.

You can have a RPG with rather varied content, but the problem is of course that many people will complain that there is nothing to do after a while in such game. It would still be a RPG though.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by BahamutKaiser

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 I'm glad your pointing out things that I am stuck on although I completely disagree that I am stuck on anything.  I have not ever nor implied that there is a way or I am trying to make everyone happy. I have not ever stated nor implied that anyone should ever even pay attention to the small percentage or outliers of any group.

Yes many people appreciate similiar things.  However once again it is still perception, if someone does something long enough, for most people it will start to become monotonous and unpleasant, ergo a grind.  This is where the developer comes in with a variety of tasks.  The player still needs to take responsibility for their actions and there thoughts, and recognize that the grind is largely because of the way they are choosing to play.

Intersting side tangents you have going on there with things I have never stated or implied though.

LOL, OK guy who has his opinion of what grind is in his quote, think whatever you will, I don't need you to understand what is widely held and understood in marketing, psychology and philosophy, believe what you want, based on your opinion of thought, you can't be right or wrong anyway.

 OK one last quote.  That isn't my definition, look up the word.  Words have meaning, grind is to wear down, a monotonous task.  We didn't invent a completely new word, we took a word that was allready there, that has meaning, and used it for gaming.

I have taken many philosophy and psychology classes.  I also work very closely with many psychologists and psychiatrist.  Every single one of them will tell you that you are responsible for your own thoughts and that you can change your thoughts, if you do not like something it is up to you to either change it, or change how you perceive it, or you accept it.  That is the basis behind most psychotherapeutic techniques such as CBT, DBT, narrative, expressive and positive pscyotherapy - that you can change your thoughts, and you can change your actions.

The mind is a funny thing.  I can *theoretically* change my thoughts.  But I won't do so on my own, because the thoughts I have take me away from doing so. 

So... can I really change my thoughts?  Or: can I simply open myself up to allowing other perspectives and experiences the room to change them for me?

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by xeniar

il keep it in WoW terms. All the expansions (vanila asswel ofc) i activly took part in. the best in slot gear thing is irrelevent because of RNG.

You don't get the point he is trying to tell. We Rush to the endgame now making the game very shallow. and that endgame is dumbed down making it shallow asswel. All those games have the exact same concept and feeling towards them so after you have done most. and i say most because people indeed don't fully clear the game before quiting or beated all raids at that time. they don't have to to feel bored.

right now im playing WoW again and im in LFR doing the new raid throne of the thunder king or ToT for short. i have to say im abit exited. want to know why? we wiped. we went in there with no clue and he beat us down. it made me think again what is happening what can we do (without reading the now oh so handy ability guide) i (im a tank) came up with a strategy and we beat his ass to the ground right after it. i loved that again. i felt a tiny bit of an acomplishment. the next 2 bosses went about the same way. and i cannot wait to see the rest.

But when im done with the entire LFR in i think 4 weeks when they have released evrything im pretty much done with WoW again. oh you might say go do normal or heroic. Yeah i could but that issnt a comlishment. it then turns into dare i say it a grind. i will never get that feel of acomplishment again even if i strugle for weeks on killing a boss. because i already killed him. yes on a lower difficulty but that doesnt matter. that doesnt keep people playing.

to make it not shallow that boss needs to beat me down hard and i have to overcome him by hard work. then i can feel accomplished it would actually mean something for me to kill it.

What are you talking about?  RNG is not a substantial factor in a 3-15 minute boss fight, and every single upgrade increases your character's capabilities.  

Nothing about the rush to endgame makes the game shallow.  From my personal experience, the endless XP grind is actually shallower on account of never being put to different tests (fight the same mobs for 24 hours straight and you're going to level up, but to earn that next upgrade you need to learn Boss Mechanic #72.)

Honestly if you're concerned about game depth, I have no clue why you're giving up at LFR versions of bosses.  WOW is grindiest when you consider all the prerequisites to reaching its hardest content.  WOW is deepest at the points where tactical thinking is most required.  So you're giving up right at the point where things have started to get hard.

 

you said completely beat the game right and getting best in slot gear. getting BiS gear requires you to be lucky because of RNG. You cannot do anythign about RNG a person might do content 99 times and have not yet getten a certain item. while i get it in 1 go. Also i don t need BiS gear to do the content. look at the progress we have now with the new raid they took a day to kill all the bosses on normal. and now the new reset they are on 11-13 last time i checked. so within a week all those heroic bosses are going down. and they do it in gear from before the new patch. they might replace a thing or 2 but far away from BiS.  im currently not raiding so the LFR version are enough for me. i dont give up after the LFR versions. there jsut is no point in doing the other version i have seen the content been there done that. im currently not intrested with it.

you might ay the endles XP is more shallow u are probaply right but you are also wrong. People within your party (yeah you tought i was gonna solo?) make that grind so much more enjoyable but that is if the combat has a certain amount of downtime so you can talk with them have fun with them. and please. questing not shalow? kill 7 trolls. collect 15 seaweed kill one big guy and after that kill 10 deer collect 20 drake bones and kill another big guy.  OMG man it has so much depth.

Let me give you an example about people's diffrent thinking about beating a game. Im currently playing Tomb Raider on ps3, my goal for that game is beat the endboss and collect evrything inside that game. then i am done with it i "completed" the game.  A friend of mine played for 10 hours rushed trough it did not collect or search for anything beat the endboss and tought the game wasnt any fun. So here we are both beating the game but not having done the same thing because our goals are diffrent. another friend of mine would say that we Both did not beat the game because having it on platinum is the ultimate end of the game wich is true. but that requires multiplayer and i will not touch it because it does not intrest me.

And in WoW your not required to have all achievments and mounts etc to beat the game people have diffrent goals. When i reach mine i am done with it. despite their being more content. This is how content locust also think. actually i quited alot of the new MMO's without completing them because its the same old shit we get spoonfed.

O.P. you need some perspective. Permit me to offer a similar situiation. If a hypothetical game let players create whatever characters they wanted to, which route would players take?

1. create a level 1 character with no gear and very weak stats
2. create a level 1000 character with the best gear in the game and max stats.

Obviously everyone would pick (2) and your logic would conclude players don't like RPGs.

People tend to seek the path of least resistance in MMO, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting an easier game, but with the ability to follow the community.

If you're walking around with a group of friends, you won't linger around in a shop if everyone is moving ahead, no matter how much you would prefer lingering in the shop, you tend to move in group. People don't like falling behind in MMO.

I actually tend to play alts if I'm ahead of friends I like playing with, just so I don't skip ahead of them.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

People tend to seek the path of least resistance in MMO, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting an easier game, but with the ability to follow the community.

If you're walking around with a group of friends, you won't linger around in a shop if everyone is moving ahead, no matter how much you would prefer lingering in the shop, you tend to move in group.

I've actually done it a few times.  If they're really my friends, they'll either wait up for me or at least let me know where to meet up later; and they know I'd do the same for them.

If they're not, I'm probably lingering for the sake of *losing* them and the shop is just an excuse.

But I'm also a bit of a contrarian; I tend to seek the road less travelled, which frequently coincides with the path of most resistance.

Originally posted by KaosProphet

Originally posted by CalmOceans

People tend to seek the path of least resistance in MMO, I don't think this has anything to do with wanting an easier game, but with the ability to follow the community.

If you're walking around with a group of friends, you won't linger around in a shop if everyone is moving ahead, no matter how much you would prefer lingering in the shop, you tend to move in group.

I've actually done it a few times.  If they're really my friends, they'll either wait up for me or at least let me know where to meet up later; and they know I'd do the same for them.

If they're not, I'm probably lingering for the sake of *losing* them and the shop is just an excuse.

But I'm also a bit of a contrarian; I tend to seek the road less travelled, which frequently coincides with the path of most resistance.

That is why he said "people TENDS to" .. not "All people will".

Plus, you really want to slow everyone down just because you like to linger?

Originally posted by CalmOceans

If you're walking around with a group of friends, you won't linger around in a shop if everyone is moving ahead, no matter how much you would prefer lingering in the shop, you tend to move in group. People don't like falling behind in MMO.

It just seems like really weak design for a persistent world that such a thing is even possible. It's a problem that seems to exist primarily in themepark-focused MMOs.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by CalmOceans

If you're walking around with a group of friends, you won't linger around in a shop if everyone is moving ahead, no matter how much you would prefer lingering in the shop, you tend to move in group. People don't like falling behind in MMO.

It just seems like really weak design for a persistent world that such a thing is even possible. It's a problem that seems to exist primarily in themepark-focused MMOs.

It is. back when i played EQ i had a number of alts capped. i geus 5 chars total. now in all these them park MMO's i cant bear to even levelcap a second character it just gets boring seeing the same quests again being alone again.

in MMO's of old evryone leveled in there own pace. so there would always be people to level it wheter it would be there mains or an alt.

Why do you think blizzard has entire zones being xrealm now? to fill it up with people because there leveling trough quests is a bad design.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by KaosProphet

Originally posted by CalmOceans

*snip*

*snip*

That is why he said "people TENDS to" .. not "All people will".

Plus, you really want to slow everyone down just because you like to linger?

So now it is not oke for him to make the group wait but it is oke for YOU to leave that group in the middle of a zone where they would most likeley die because it is in your convience.

I love it how you just change your toughts evrytime in every post you make.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by CalmOceans

If you're walking around with a group of friends, you won't linger around in a shop if everyone is moving ahead, no matter how much you would prefer lingering in the shop, you tend to move in group. People don't like falling behind in MMO.

It just seems like really weak design for a persistent world that such a thing is even possible. It's a problem that seems to exist primarily in themepark-focused MMOs.

Well, I still need to play the first game that doesn't  have progression of some kind. Street Gears is the only MMO I played that wasn't really progression based, but it's a a very different type of MMO.

EQ, WoW, Vanguard, LOTRO, Vindictus, EVE, FFXIV, RIft, etc. All of those games are progression based games.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by CalmOceans

If you're walking around with a group of friends, you won't linger around in a shop if everyone is moving ahead, no matter how much you would prefer lingering in the shop, you tend to move in group. People don't like falling behind in MMO.

It just seems like really weak design for a persistent world that such a thing is even possible. It's a problem that seems to exist primarily in themepark-focused MMOs.

Well, I still need to play the first game that doesn't  have progression of some kind. Street Gears is the only MMO I played that wasn't really progression based, but it's a a very different type of MMO.

EQ, WoW, Vanguard, LOTRO, Vindictus, EVE, FFXIV, RIft, etc. All of those games are progression based games.

Eve hits a point where progression (mostly) starts going horizontal instead of vertical.  Not completely, but enough where latecomers or those who 'fell behind' can reasonably 'catch up' on relevant points and still contribute.  It also took most of the 'grind' out of skill progression by... well, progressing skills entirely seperate from the grind. 

Or at least,, this was the case when I was still playing it.