Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Vunak23
This is a dumb question. Give someone the choice to skip any grind and they will take it 9/10 times. 

He's using the word grind to intentionally color the question. Then again, has he ever created a post that poses a question where it wasn't intentionally leading or based on a false premise?  People here latch onto keywords so that's a consistently effective tool for creating epic threads on these boards. 

While true they are entertaining and much better than the normal "this game sucks" threads that go on.

Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Vunak23
This is a dumb question. Give someone the choice to skip any grind and they will take it 9/10 times. 

He's using the word grind to intentionally color the question. Then again, has he ever created a post that poses a question where it wasn't intentionally leading or based on a false premise?  People here latch onto keywords so that's a consistently effective tool for creating epic threads on these boards. 

While true they are entertaining and much better than the normal "this game sucks" threads that go on.

Oh hell yeah :)

Originally posted by Quizzical
People who say they want leveling to be slow tend to mean that they want leveling to be slow for everyone else.

 "Slow leveling" it's all about shared experience.

If you are playing football in your backyard usually everyone agrees on the rules. Tackle? Flag? etc.

If you are playing a game of monopoly, there are sometimes "local variants" that people use such as all the taxes and fines going in the center and if someone lands on free parking they get the pot.

It's less fun for some people to be playing by one set of rules and other people to be playing by others.

It creates for stories of shared experience.

I would say that some people, myself incuded, like slow leveling. No one (or anyone who is healthy) wants to penalize anyone for the sake of it. They want to play with like minded people with universal rules that everyone agrees with.

That's why it's ok to have games with permadeath or full looting or games where you can get to max level in a day.

Part of playing a game and part of the fun is in the trials and tribulations and shared stories of the players. Being the only player following a set of rules such as imposing your own permadeath, isn't very fun when you are playing an online game with others who aren't part of the same rule set.

Originally posted by Quizzical
People who say they want leveling to be slow tend to mean that they want leveling to be slow for everyone else.

There's a lot of truth in that.

I love the "grind isn't real, that's just your preferance" line... cause that makes total sense, if 60 out of 100 ppl say something tastes bad, it doesn't taste bad, most ppl just don't like it... 10 feet isn't high, your just short...

No, grind is real, it's a description of activity you don't enjoy doing in order to get what you want. Just because it's contextual doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means it's circumstancial. Circumstance and preferance are real subjects, opinions don't need to be unanimous in order for them to exist.

I think what is most prevalent about grind in RPGs, not just MMOs, is that people are willing to tolerate less than satisfying gameplay simply to participate in a fantasy, feel achievement, experience a story, or any other number of rewards in an RPG. This is far less relevant in a brief game though, as ones disatisfaction with the gameplay isn't as aggrevated when your not exposed to it as long. Likewise, many gameplay qualities which are sub par are perfectly adequate when your only daubling in it for a while.

This circumstance is extremely noticable when a game attempts to occupy you for an indefinate amount of time, since they want to retain you for so long, shortening content isn't much of a solution. Though as games move away from subscription sales, they may not be as enthusiastic about preoccupying you indefinately, players who particularly like MMOs are attached to the endlessness of entertainment in MMOs, so again, shortening them isn't the solution.

The gameplay really needs to be renewably interesting over an indefinate amount of time, some ppl imagine it can't be done, while others are perfectly satisfied with what's available, that's their preferance, and moreso, some people are also displeased with or unable to enjoy intense gameplay, or just so in an MMO (of course these aren't to spazzy or action packed, that's just a persons persective >.>), so there is a division of preferance.  It's possible to make a game which caters to a broader or combine audience if developers get creative, but nothing can satisfy everyone, humans are just different and diverse.

But I retain that Grind is the worst part of MMOs, sure certain gameplay is adequate for some, and for some that is OK, but there are ways to improve gameplay even within a preferance, and creative crossover gameplay can find ways for gameplay to be fun to different preferances, even allow gameplay to work in many alternate ways for a larger audience. And knowing that many players tolerate grind for auterior reasons, it furthers the point that there are better ways to make the gameplay.

There's a sure way to know though if your grinding or not. If you removed all other auxilery motivation, would you still play it?, Would you in fact be playiing that game if a program was operating the other characters and not people? Overlooking the fact that the gameplay may be an enabler of that quality, does it alone stand evident as fun? Would you in fact be playing it if it was not an RPG, and had no character deveopement, or story, or progression? And before you say that's oversimplifying, there are plenty of games like this, Shooters, RTS, even MOBA isolate character development and progression into one brief session, the story is totally uneccessary for you to enjoy them, and the gameplay stands on it's own. I'm not saying it has to be one of these genre of gameplay, I am saying, the gameplay could be made better, and no amount of dismissal or disinterest can refute that. Even for those who are satisfied with their game, there is room to improve the game to be more satisfying for them, and or broaden to appeal to a larger audience.

Personally, I love character development, progression, and character diversity, it never had to be shortened, if it is a good character development system with enticing growth and change, it is OK for it to take months, and years to pursue. It never had to be shorter, but I do not want to tolerate some sort of excess boredom in the process either... The character development can be great, and so can the gameplay, the combat, the auxilery activities, and everything else.

Consoles installments have show a good job of incorperating former advancements in gaming into modern games, from platforming, physics, combat behavior, interactive environments, surreal cut scenes and even in gameplay visuals, Hell, anyone whose played Dissidia knows, gameplay can be so visually impressive that it rivals cut scenes and movies. MMOs need to do the same thing, they need to learn at every avenue, improve on every concept, take away from other MMOs and Console games, and most of all, seperate what is really good content, and what is simply being tolerated, and stop propogating bad mechanics and boring gameplay into new games.

How do you know grinds been solved? People can play the content between lvl 1-10 over and over... they may want to replay it and go back just because it was enjoyable, they may even want to be level capped to stay in that part of the game because their perfectly satisfied with that content, right there, at the beginning. Step up your Game.

Originally posted by BahamutKaiser

No, grind is real, it's a description of activity you don't enjoy doing in order to get what you want. Just because it's contextual doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means it's circumstancial. Circumstance and preferance are real subjects, opinions don't need to be unanimous in order for them to exist.

In other words, it is an entirely subjective experience which varies by the player.

No golden insight awards for this one, though.

Originally posted by Antiquated

Originally posted by BahamutKaiser

No, grind is real, it's a description of activity you don't enjoy doing in order to get what you want. Just because it's contextual doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means it's circumstancial. Circumstance and preferance are real subjects, opinions don't need to be unanimous in order for them to exist.

In other words, it is an entirely subjective experience which varies by the player.

No golden insight awards for this one, though.

Originally posted by Normandy7
The old school grind was the best because for me it is all about the journey an not the destination. 

Barring the fact that a "skip levels" button is always a terrible idea in a MMORPG, how are modern MMORPGs not about journey?

I log on and do things that are fun.  Grouping, daily quests, raids.  It's all journey until the very end, and virtually nobody's reaching the end.

Originally posted by Antiquated

Originally posted by BahamutKaiser

No, grind is real, it's a description of activity you don't enjoy doing in order to get what you want. Just because it's contextual doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means it's circumstancial. Circumstance and preferance are real subjects, opinions don't need to be unanimous in order for them to exist.

In other words, it is an entirely subjective experience which varies by the player.

No golden insight awards for this one, though.

Proving the point you're trying to disprove in your first line isn't a very good way to argue something is it  :)

Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Antiquated

Originally posted by BahamutKaiser

No, grind is real, it's a description of activity you don't enjoy doing in order to get what you want. Just because it's contextual doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means it's circumstancial. Circumstance and preferance are real subjects, opinions don't need to be unanimous in order for them to exist.

In other words, it is an entirely subjective experience which varies by the player.

No golden insight awards for this one, though.

Proving the point you're trying to disprove in your first line isn't a very good way to argue something is it  :)

Well that begs a new question doesn't.  Since a preference, opinoin... is only in our heads, if something exists only in our heads, does it actually exist.

IMO no it doesn't.  Grind is entirely perception.  Change your view and the grind changes, therefore it never really existed in the first place.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 

Well that begs a new question doesn't.  Since a preference, opinoin... is only in our heads, if something exists only in our heads, does it actually exist.

IMO no it doesn't.  Grind is entirely perception.  Change your view and the grind changes, therefore it never really existed in the first place.

lol, now you sound like my brother and I when I was 14 ; )

I agreee with this post whole heartily.

What does one do in an elder scrolls game if one is not crafting? You probalby are exploring and killing mobs. And yet I rarely see anyone saying elder scrolls games are big grindfests.

Originally posted by Normandy7
The old school grind was the best because for me it is all about the journey an not the destination. 

This. The old school grind wasn't really a grind because you were not racing to get to the end. The grind mentality comes from impatience to get to the end which was never the point back then.

If MMOs were more social this could probably be revived, but as long as they remain about getting 1 shiny every x minutes people will inevitably get bored of the game eventually and call it grind.

Originally posted by Sovrath

What does one do in an elder scrolls game if one is not crafting? You probalby are exploring and killing mobs. And yet I rarely see anyone saying elder scrolls games are big grindfests.

Yup, if you like doing it, it is not "grind". Self-evident.

Tie me down and make me craft things? Could I just burn out my eyes with hot pokers instead? Lick razor blades?

Takes all kinds. And the ones you don't think should be playing your games? Always are.

I'm just waiting for the day devs add a stress bar to a game. Like Shadow Heart's malice meter. Too many power levelers, content locust and first maxed players out there. Spend too much time focus on questing and fighting and your stress bar fills. Fill it up completely and suddenly you feel like it's taking longer and longer to level. And that's because, under the hood,  the game is taking in account how quickly you are leveling and adjusting the numerical value of experience needed to gain the next level in accordance. Basically moving the goal post. The system is not limting how much you play, but adjusting itself to compensate for your l33t skillz by adding challenge where a player, such as yourself,  has chosen to seek it.

And how do you lower that stress bar? Why by doing things these types of players normally skip over in their quest to max fast. Namely, go fishing, go exploring, sit in a npc bar and socialize, start crafting, hell even grouping with a lowbie and helping him finish a few quest can lower that stress meter. I mean who has the time to build a strong community if a majority of players are focused exclusively on maxing. Maxing I might add, in order to denounce how shallow and unchallenging the game was.

It's all about trying to re-teach the players to slow down and enjoy the journey, not the race. I'll be honest, I hated the grind. For me it was always a barrier between my friends and I that I just didn't have the time nor the will to overcome (try closing a 10+ level difference in DAoC when you're johnny come late). So I simply brushed it off as something the devs cooked up because that's the best they could think of to keep us playing. But that doesn't mean I didn't appreciate what it accomplished. And that's why I'll be the first to admit that the grind served a dual purpose. That second purpose may not have been intentional (or as obvious to me then as it is now) but it help build a tighter community among it's players. That's because it was so damn boring with all that pullin, killin and sittin around to recover! And we had a lot more time to build bonds because of it.

Originally posted by Ortwig
People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by Ortwig
People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.

Originally posted by Ortwig

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by Ortwig
People say they hate grind, but when it is removed people whine about not having "enough to do."

because what they really mean, is that they hate games where there isn't much to do, except grind.

Actually what it really means is that some people like grind, but won't admit it.

Well if they like the activity, they it is no longer monotonous or unpleasant right?  Therefore it's not a grind anymore.