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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Are you in favor of Battlegrounds?

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157 posts found
  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

3/17/13 1:14:52 PM#81
Originally posted by Karraptathid
Originally posted by Xobdnas

Bgs take players from the open world mass population and put them into smaller instanced conflicts, now does that not take away from the main population?

 

Same can be said for crafters and home builders that CSE is planning on.

 Some crafting and the safe zone housing yes, but gathering materials and especially building structures in the "frontiers" isn't detracting at all.. it's adding support structures for different playstyles in big boy rvr. Besides, having crafting take away from rvr isn't an excuse to add bgs to do the same. Like I said, if there is a large power gap then I don't see an issue with it. If there isn't then we don't need them. I liked bgs in daoc, but there was a need for them there... and we don't know if we'll need them here.

Taking away population is an issue, it's not a major one when the game starts, but it will come back to haunt the game as it dies.

  Ellya

Novice Member

Joined: 3/03/13
Posts: 99

3/17/13 1:22:44 PM#82

The way I'm understanding the snippets we've had, if crafters are building outposts then they're going to need the fighters to protect them while they do it.  Crafters and fighters will need each other, all the time.

 

  meddyck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1134

3/17/13 2:44:39 PM#83

There will be hundreds of players per realm in the main frontiers. There's nothing to worry about when it comes to taking players away from that. It never was an issue with DAOC's BGs and it won't be in CU. For any major realm offensive in the main frontiers, there will be more than enough players around to take part in it. You won't fail to take a keep because a few dozen people are playing in Molvik. It just doesn't work like that.

Besides many of the people who spend a lot of time in DAOC's BGs don't like going to the frontiers because they don't have the time needed to form a balanced group,  they don't like the size and complexity of the main frontier, or for any number of other reasons. If the BGs didn't exist, these players would just cancel. Having a BG in CU gives them a place to play in the game and earns CSE their subscription dollars and also is fun for players who will play in the main frontiers but who may want a break from them once in a while.

My assumption is there will be a strong progression system that will be like DAOC's realm abilities although named differently. This won't be as bad as PvP gear stats in games such as SWTOR where players with high values of the PvP stat are basically unkillable and destroy people without it. But it will make a difference. So there will be a good reason for brand new toons to want to play in a separate area with other low ranked toons until they get the hang of their class and have gained the first few ranks.

tldr: yes have a DAOC-style BG

Camelot Unchained Backer
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  Vargur

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/10
Posts: 143

3/17/13 5:45:30 PM#84
If the battlegrounds are designed as a place where 8vs8s can fight without being bothered about the adds and zergs, I can see a place for them. Personally, I prefer zerging or RvRing rather than the 8vs8 game and there doubt I will spend much time in them, but if BGs can fill a role for 8vs8s then go for it.
  drakon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 114

3/17/13 8:03:28 PM#85
Originally posted by Vargur
If the battlegrounds are designed as a place where 8vs8s can fight without being bothered about the adds and zergs, I can see a place for them. Personally, I prefer zerging or RvRing rather than the 8vs8 game and there doubt I will spend much time in them, but if BGs can fill a role for 8vs8s then go for it.

Actually, DAoC BG's were quite the opposite.  A lot of BG regulars (myself included) hated the 8man crowd and playstyle, and went to the BG's to escape it.  The BG's were fickle enough that if an 8man started dominating there enemies would quickly leave and go somewhere else.  But if there was healthy competition then people stuck around.  Plus most 8man's didn't like the BG's because there was no form of progression and very few iwin buttons.  It was purely for the RvR fun of it.   Plus there was the fact that I could take any new character I wanted to play, get them to 20, spend a few gold on a template, and go out and be 90% as effective as someone who spent 5+ plat on theirs.  There are plenty of 8man's that like good healthy competition, but there are just as many that would have invaded the BG's if a 5 plat template meant they could dominate.

  Ziftylrhavic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/13
Posts: 223

3/17/13 8:07:44 PM#86

Here are the two main questions in the previous posts :

 

Why would we need battlegrounds?

 

So far there are three answers for the bgs to that question :

1 Because battlegrounds are great, i loved them in DAoC.

2 Because the new players need a place to play without facing an overpowered opponent, and some players don't want to do the boring and time consuming work to reach the competitive level.

3 Because that way it will attract a type of players to the game and make more money to CSE.

 

To the first point, i will simply say than Camelot Unchained won't be a new DAoC remasterized. They are two different games and if there are bgs in CU, it will probably not be the same than in DAoC so you won't be able to compare them. If you wan't to play in DAoC bgs, then play DAoC, the game and bgs are still available.

 

Secondly, Mark Jacobs said :

"we want players to get into RvR right from the beginning of their journey in CU."    (http://citystateentertainment.com/2013/02/top-ten-questions-no-realm-ranks-abilities-what/)

The key point here is RvR. The new players won't be all alone fighting against older and better players. They will have the support of their fellow realm mates, or it means than the realm pride is gone and so the game have a big problem. Also, there will be no boring and time consuming work to do to become competitive, you'll earn money and experience by helping your realm and so will be able to buy your stuff from the crafters, maybe even by just helping them getting their materials as they will be happy to equip you to help the realm (here comes the realm pride again^^)

 

For the last point, MJ clearly stated than he won't do anything just to have more subscribers. All the things he'll do will be to make the game better, and if bgs don't bring anything, then there is no need to make them.

 

 

What do i do if i want to have some quick fun without having to take the time to group or launch into a big scale fight ? Wouldn't the bgs be perfect for that?

 

Although bgs would indeed be a good way, we can think of a lots of other ways to have quick fun :

 

First, there will be quests. MJ already talked about how he would like the players to play in order to explore the map at times (http://citystateentertainment.com/2013/02/foundational-principle-3/, case #1 exemple), it could be a great way to have a quick session.

 

Secondly, there could be Points Of Interest, like MJ called them, that reward little scale battle, for exemple by giving the exp for helping the realm to only a limited number of people, so zerg are not interested in those. The open world and big map could help by putting those POI far enough to bigger POI so that the time to get there would discourage the zerg.

 

Thirdly, the grouping system could be ameliored, or alternatives could be added. For example, a caravan transporting goods is on the way from one point to another, and even though you weren't connected when it left the starting point, you could get into a permanent group without needing an invitation from a leader.

If the caravan is moving slower than your average player and than maybe you get a speed buff upon joining the group as long as you travel on the road and toward the caravan, you could quickly get into an exp earning activity and help your realm while still being able to quickly leave the game. Of course you would need to add activities to do while the caravan is on the way, as to not just wait and look at it moving if no enemy attacks you, but this isn't the thread to talk about it.

 

Finally, i'm sure we could think about a lot of other ways if we take the time to do it.

 

 

Well, that's all i had to say for now. Maybe i forgot a question or an argument, if so remind it to me and i will be happy to talk about it.

As for what i think now, i would say than there is no need for bgs, but i can still change my mind if you give me a reason i didn't see.

  drakon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 114

3/17/13 11:40:18 PM#87

The problem here isn't going to be at release.  The problem is going to be 2-3 years down the road.  I dare you to find an experienced MMO player that has never played DAoC before, get them to play to 50 and jump straight into RvR without using the BG's.  99% will quit, the power curve is WAY to steep at this point in the game.  DAoC at release was a whole different story.  You COULD jump into RvR at 38-40 with your guild and do ok.  Nowdays you'd get laughed at and one-shot.

 

The whole point of making an MMORPG is progression of some type.  At release when everyone is still learning, the playing field will be relatively level.  2-3 years after release there WILL be a power curve.  How steep it is depends heavily on CSE.  The BG's were a great way to help lessen that extremely steep power curve. 

  dynamicipftw

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/12
Posts: 216

3/17/13 11:56:10 PM#88
Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic

 ...

1) CU won't be DAoC remastered, but you can bet your ass it will be closer to DAoC than any other game.

2) "we want players to get into RvR right from the beginning of their journey in CU."   

BGs in DAoC ARE RvR. They are unlike any other BG system in any other game (see my chart above). A BG is pretty much just another frontier region (just smaller).

Also, as MJ said, there will be progression. Veterans won't be able to 1-shot newbies but they will be more powerful. Now add power(more/better skills, better items) + experience + teamwork from years of playing vs day 1 newbies without any of those and you have a recipe for disaster (new players getting frustrated and quitting very quickly)

  Vyeth

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/07
Posts: 1464

Celebrated pariah of MMORPG.com

3/18/13 2:10:41 AM#89
Originally posted by Telondariel
Originally posted by Vyeth

The ORvR world would be empty.. It would turn into sit in town and queue.. And people are going to come in here and say "No it wouldn't", but it has been proven time after time already..

Did you even play DAoC?  Because your statement is so far out in left field in relation to what actually happened that I can not draw any other conclusion.

That was the best rebuttal I have ever read.. Oh wait, it wasn't rebuttal, just a "conclusion" based on an emotional outburst and a counter question which I can only add to with yet another equally useless response "Briefly"

  grimjakk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/01/06
Posts: 195

3/18/13 2:46:26 AM#90
Originally posted by Vyeth
Originally posted by Telondariel
Originally posted by Vyeth

The ORvR world would be empty.. It would turn into sit in town and queue.. And people are going to come in here and say "No it wouldn't", but it has been proven time after time already..

Did you even play DAoC?  Because your statement is so far out in left field in relation to what actually happened that I can not draw any other conclusion.

That was the best rebuttal I have ever read.. Oh wait, it wasn't rebuttal, just a "conclusion" based on an emotional outburst and a counter question which I can only add to with yet another equally useless response "Briefly"

DAOC BG's are functionally different than WoW BG's or WAR scenarios in that they're persistant.  There's no queuing involved.  And there's no real 'winner' in that the side that takes the central keep, immediately gets sandwiched by the other two realms.  It's a lot of fun when all three realms are going at it hammer and tong...

They were initially intended to be a venue for learning RvR before hitting the real Frontier, but then were expanded to be an alternate progression path for players that would rather fight each other than grind mobs. 

CU doesn't really NEED them, but if they could implement one with a progression cap, that allowed for some casual low risk/low reward carnage...  I don't think it would do anything but enhance the game.

 

*edited for obvious typos...*

  Heartspark

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/13
Posts: 69

3/18/13 8:31:41 AM#91
Originally posted by dynamicipftw
Originally posted by Ziftylrhavic

 ...

1) CU won't be DAoC remastered, but you can bet your ass it will be closer to DAoC than any other game.

2) "we want players to get into RvR right from the beginning of their journey in CU."   

BGs in DAoC ARE RvR. They are unlike any other BG system in any other game (see my chart above). A BG is pretty much just another frontier region (just smaller).

Also, as MJ said, there will be progression. Veterans won't be able to 1-shot newbies but they will be more powerful. Now add power(more/better skills, better items) + experience + teamwork from years of playing vs day 1 newbies without any of those and you have a recipe for disaster (new players getting frustrated and quitting very quickly)

In the original DAOC veterans was not suppose to one shot noobies.  But they did.  Ask a archer how many times they one shot casters, or a stealther who backstabed/crit strike a caster/light armor.  Or a prenerf berzerker who went vendo mode and one shot people left and right.  Hell i did it on animist with bombers sometimes.

You know what?  It was not the be all end all of the game, it made it fun.

 

People forget battlegrounds was invented for cookie cutter PvP in a pve game.  CU is not a PvE game, its as simple as that.

Heartspark: Animist rr12, bors, Lone Enforcer, Retired

Dranzerk: Berzerker (kay) retired
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  Saevel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/15/04
Posts: 102

3/18/13 8:33:41 AM#92
Originally posted by Heartspark

People forget battlegrounds was invented for cookie cutter PvP in a pve game.  CU is not a PvE game, its as simple as that.

I very much agree. This is the essence of the discussion. Just because it was fun in DAoC doesn't mean there is a need for it in CU. There might be plenty of opportunities to play the same way that you did in DAoC battlegrounds, but in the frontiers instead.

  dynamicipftw

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/12
Posts: 216

3/18/13 9:21:41 AM#93
Originally posted by Saevel
Originally posted by Heartspark

People forget battlegrounds was invented for cookie cutter PvP in a pve game.  CU is not a PvE game, its as simple as that.

I very much agree. This is the essence of the discussion. Just because it was fun in DAoC doesn't mean there is a need for it in CU. There might be plenty of opportunities to play the same way that you did in DAoC battlegrounds, but in the frontiers instead.

Why stop there? Let's take everything that was fun in DAoC and remove it or replace it with something else. I'm sure it will be a great success. Wait, didn't they already try that in WAR?

  Saevel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/15/04
Posts: 102

3/18/13 9:32:45 AM#94
Originally posted by dynamicipftw
Originally posted by Saevel
Originally posted by Heartspark

People forget battlegrounds was invented for cookie cutter PvP in a pve game.  CU is not a PvE game, its as simple as that.

I very much agree. This is the essence of the discussion. Just because it was fun in DAoC doesn't mean there is a need for it in CU. There might be plenty of opportunities to play the same way that you did in DAoC battlegrounds, but in the frontiers instead.

Why stop there? Let's take everything that was fun in DAoC and remove it or replace it with something else. I'm sure it will be a great success. Wait, didn't they already try that in WAR?

Hehe, what I'm saying is that there might be a way to make it just as fun in CU without them :)

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7703

3/18/13 9:46:33 AM#95

Mark I hope(i'm sure you are) you are checking out Age of Wushu. The way they use systems like escorts,  spy missions, even silk worm rearing stands to reward and ecourage Wpvp. 

 

AoW is the first mmorpg I've played that does not need battle grounds at all. Battle grounds are going to be added to Ao though, it worried me at first, not so much anymore because the solution to the problems battle grounds cause in most mmorpgs seems so simple.

 

There can not be rewards that improve combat . The quick combat fix is a reward in itself. Add to that something on the level of school badges from AoW, and I do not think they will be an issue.

  drakon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 114

3/18/13 9:58:29 AM#96
Originally posted by bcbully

The quick combat fix is a reward in itself.

This is exactly how DAoC BG's functioned.  There was no progression or reward for it, yet they were almost more popular than 50 RvR. 

  Telondariel

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/10
Posts: 925

3/18/13 9:58:40 AM#97
Originally posted by dynamicipftw
Originally posted by Saevel
Originally posted by Heartspark

People forget battlegrounds was invented for cookie cutter PvP in a pve game.  CU is not a PvE game, its as simple as that.

I very much agree. This is the essence of the discussion. Just because it was fun in DAoC doesn't mean there is a need for it in CU. There might be plenty of opportunities to play the same way that you did in DAoC battlegrounds, but in the frontiers instead.

Why stop there? Let's take everything that was fun in DAoC and remove it or replace it with something else. I'm sure it will be a great success. Wait, didn't they already try that in WAR?

What this thread needs is a comment from MJ.

 

I'd really like to know if its in his vision to have a similar BG system that was in DAoC. 

 

Thing is, there is just so little info at this point on how the game is really going to coalesce.  People keep quoting the same paragraph where MJ talks about how he will approach leveling differently, and they are using it as justification for their stance on BG's not being necessary.   The quote is taken out of context, repeatedly, due to the vague nature of what MJ is telling us.  No one knows how the leveling/skill/progression/RvR system is really going to pan out, so how can you use that as a foundation to say, "This is how the game is going to be, so X isn't needed".   Even more interesting, are the people who latch onto that and follow it up with, "That's not the way CU is going to be.  If you want DAoC, then play that and CU is not for you."  Really, guys?  C'mon.

 

It's one thing to say you aren't interested in the BG's.  Great, you didn't play them and you preferred lvl 50 RvR.  But, please don't create ficition to back up your opinion:

  • It'll split the community
  • Its a small team so resources should be for the core game
  • CU is going to be like THIS so the BG's won't fit in

BG's in DAoC didn't split the community.  Ever.  I think MJ knows better than the forum community how his resources will be allocated, so trying to speak for him is asanine.  And, finally, the game is still on paper and in the minds of MJ's team.  If they are still chewing over ideas, then CU as an entity certainly isn't written in stone yet, so please stop telling people who differ in opinion or vision to go away because "the game is going to be like this".

 

I really don't understand the vehemence of some of the people here against the BG's.  It was  a core aspect of DAoC that entertained a lot of people.   The people that liked lvl 50 RvR went out into the frontiers and did that.  The rest of us RvRed in the BG's.  It worked, and it worked damn well.

 

 

 

 

 

  Soki123

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/10/08
Posts: 1343

3/18/13 10:07:28 AM#98
Originally posted by Telondariel
Originally posted by dynamicipftw
Originally posted by Saevel
Originally posted by Heartspark

People forget battlegrounds was invented for cookie cutter PvP in a pve game.  CU is not a PvE game, its as simple as that.

I very much agree. This is the essence of the discussion. Just because it was fun in DAoC doesn't mean there is a need for it in CU. There might be plenty of opportunities to play the same way that you did in DAoC battlegrounds, but in the frontiers instead.

Why stop there? Let's take everything that was fun in DAoC and remove it or replace it with something else. I'm sure it will be a great success. Wait, didn't they already try that in WAR?

What this thread needs is a comment from MJ.

 

I'd really like to know if its in his vision to have a similar BG system that was in DAoC. 

 

Thing is, there is just so little info at this point on how the game is really going to coalesce.  People keep quoting the same paragraph where MJ talks about how he will approach leveling differently, and they are using it as justification for their stance on BG's not being necessary.   The quote is taken out of context, repeatedly, due to the vague nature of what MJ is telling us.  No one knows how the leveling/skill/progression/RvR system is really going to pan out, so how can you use that as a foundation to say, "This is how the game is going to be, so X isn't needed".   Even more interesting, are the people who latch onto that and follow it up with, "That's not the way CU is going to be.  If you want DAoC, then play that and CU is not for you."  Really, guys?  C'mon.

 

It's one thing to say you aren't interested in the BG's.  Great, you didn't play them and you preferred lvl 50 RvR.  But, please don't create ficition to back up your opinion:

  • It'll split the community
  • Its a small team so resources should be for the core game
  • CU is going to be like THIS so the BG's won't fit in

BG's in DAoC didn't split the community.  Ever.  I think MJ knows better than the forum community how his resources will be allocated, so trying to speak for him is asanine.  And, finally, the game is still on paper and in the minds of MJ's team.  If they are still chewing over ideas, then CU as an entity certainly isn't written in stone yet, so please stop telling people who differ in opinion or vision to go away because "the game is going to be like this".

 

I really don't understand the vehemence of some of the people here against the BG's.  It was  a core aspect of DAoC that entertained a lot of people.   The people that liked lvl 50 RvR went out into the frontiers and did that.  The rest of us RvRed in the BG's.  It worked, and it worked damn well.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree MJ needs to comment on this, if he can. From what info we have, right now, BGs won t fit in at all. I loved DAOC BGs, many days spent days and days in them. That said, only going off the little info he has said, that people are quoting, there is no room for them at all, as they were in DAOC.

This is why people are quoting that, and I agree with that.

  Saevel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/15/04
Posts: 102

3/18/13 10:08:37 AM#99
Originally posted by Telondariel

...

How about you chill out and answer this:

 

If CU is designed so that you can have the same kind of fun in the actual world instead of battlegrounds, why would you need them? Apart from your good memories from DAoC (which I have too btw, I spent tons of time in the bg's there), where is the need for such a place in CU? I for one am I no way antagonizing battlegrounds, but I do have to ask why you would want one if you can have the same in the frontiers?

 

The arguments I've heard so far are very much based on a system that forces you to level up in PvE and enter RvR without the necessary tools. Instead of raging over people who can't see the point in having battlegrounds, please explain exactly why you can't make a game with the same elements in the actual frontiers.

  drakon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 114

3/18/13 10:11:20 AM#100
Originally posted by Soki123

I agree MJ needs to comment on this, if he can. From what info we have, right now, BGs won t fit in at all. I loved DAOC BGs, many days spent days and days in them. That said, only going off the little info he has said, that people are quoting, there is no room for them at all, as they were in DAOC.

This is why people are quoting that, and I agree with that.

I believe MJ has also said there will be a training area of sorts as he doesn't believe in just tossing newbs straight into the fire.  I personally see BG's in CU as being a cross between a tutorial area and quick fix RvR ala DAoC BG's. 

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