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MMORPG Game Concepts  » So, I want to make an MMO But have no clue how to...

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81 posts found
  CyborWolfTK

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 80

3/14/13 1:27:56 PM#21

 

 

   @OP:

 

  Learn a few programming languages. C#, C++, Java, Python, and even HTML would all be useful to you.

 Next, Learn to use some 3d Modeling programs. Blender is free, and is my favorite, your mileage may vary.

 Learn to use Imiage manipulation program. I.E. Photoshop, or my favorite(because it's free) is GIMP.

 

Network with other people who are like yourself. Work on other people's projects, until you have a firm grasp of what is going to be required.

 Make your first projects VERY VERY SMALL.  Add content to them, or progressivly build larger projects.

 

At this point you won't need much advice, because your going to know the stark truth.

 

Making a RPG, stand alone card game, side scroller, or really any kind of simple game is HARD.

Making an MMO adds x50 the difficulty even for the most basic kind.

 

SIr, I wish luck with your project. This type of undertaking consumed nearly 6 years of my life, and I eventually gave up once i understood just how massive an undertaking it is.

  mmoski

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/08
Posts: 282

3/14/13 1:32:59 PM#22

If your truely looking to make a browser based game, you could use html5/jscript for your front end, mysql/sql, and websockets for browser based streamed networking.

Or you could go the unity route, which i believe their web container is browser based.

Or travel down the java route.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 14454

3/14/13 1:33:17 PM#23
Originally posted by XAPKen

Assuming you are not going to write your own engine, in general the game you make is largely dictated by what the engine can provide.  Desired features are not always possible features.

 

You can think of it as engine + script coding + compatible artwork = MMORPG

 

There are at least 3 or 4 engines available to micro budget Indies.  One I know of is Hero.  Maybe other posters can name the others.  I don't know for sure which ones have become popular or have appropriate pricing models for solo / small team developed games.

 

EDIT: I just saw that the OP mentioned 2D.  That changes the engine list completely.

That brings up the question of whether to license a game engine or create your own.  Licensing a game engine further breaks into paying to get access to modify the source code arbitrarily or just using the engine as-is.

If you license a game engine and get full access to the source code, then you have to pay a lot of money for that.  That might rule it out for you immediately.  Even if you can go this route, then you're going to have to take an incredibly complex program that isn't built to do what you want and make a bunch of little modifications all over the place to change it to do what you want.  If a game engine is already built to do most of what you want, then this can save you a fair bit of time and effort, but if you're trying to go too far off the beaten path, trying to license a game engine and change it all around could well make things harder for you than building your own from scratch.

If you license a game engine but don't get access to modify it, then you can't do anything that the engine isn't built to handle.  That may force you to scrap many of the distinctive features that you wanted your game to have.

If you make your own game engine, then you can make it do whatever you want.  It won't be nearly as good of a general-purpose game engine as the ones that you could license, but it might well be better for your particular game.  A game engine that you could license will have a ton of capabilities built in that you have no use for, so you don't need to implement them in your own game engine.

Licensing a game engine lets you get started on your project and have something to show a lot faster, but can easily lose its advantages by the time your game is ready to launch.  Licensing a game engine increases the chances that you will successfully finish a game.  If you finish a game, then having made your own game engine greatly increases the chances that your game will be something along the lines of what you had in mind--and that it will be good.

  Reskaillev

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/29/06
Posts: 160

It's vaporware!

3/14/13 1:33:28 PM#24
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Tsumoro

What I really need to understand really, to get my 'foot' out the door is if I was to make this a website based game, (you played it from an in-web browser) what kinda coding language would I need to learn, what would be required in handling resources of allowing many individuals all interacting with each other like something such as pockie ninja or neopets. 

I will be essentially be working from the ground up, and although, a pipe dream per se, I would consider it to be a challenging hobby which continues until I either achieve... or die. Whatever comes first haha. 

Trying to make a browser-based game will make things harder on you.  For security reasons, there are a number of things that a browser-based program is not allowed to do, even though an ordinary standalone program would have no problem.  That's not to say that a browser-based game would be impossible; it's not, especially if you're going the 2D route.  (Modern 3D graphics, on the other hand, would be completely out of the question.)  But if you had the idea of making your game browser-based thinking that would be easier, then you shouldn't.

Provided that you pick a language that has the needed capabilities (e.g., trying to make an MMORPG in a language with no Internet capabilities isn't going to end well), it's less about the language you pick than what you do with it.

I would actually think that Java Applets would be perfect for this, no worry about cross platform compability and very easy to get a server up and running using java sockets.

 

This also keeps it limited to one language instead of the juggernaut mmos that we have now, that generally use more than one coding language to get their game running. 

"Isn't a raid plundering villages in WoW or something like that?" - Robert Desable

  Tsumoro

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/12
Posts: 388

 
OP  3/14/13 1:38:51 PM#25

Originally posted by XAPKen

Originally posted by Tsumoro
Originally posted by XAPKen

Assuming you are not going to write your own engine, in general the game you make is largely dictated by what the engine can provide.  Desired features are not always possible features.

 

You can think of it as engine + script coding + compatible artwork = MMORPG

 

There are at least 3 or 4 engines available to micro budget Indies.  One I know of is Hero.  Maybe other posters can name the others.  I don't know for sure which ones have become popular or have appropriate pricing models for solo / small team developed games.

 

I believe I am going to go forth with a web based game which should hopefully make things a bit more realistic with a man with my limited capabilities. But, you never know and I will most likely look into the Hero engine you mentioned so I can see what it allows me to do and work with. 

Thanking you. :)

 

Browser based and 2D is way out of my league.  I know Hero won't do that for you, nor would any others I was thinking of.

 

Going 2D has several advantages.  You'll be working with sprites rather than models, and there is much less rendering math involved.

 

I've seen 2D game frameworks, but nothing I recall that's MMO specific.  I'm sure there are some out there.

 

If browser based, perhaps you can cross-platform to iPad and Android tablets.  You could make a serious killing on these because the playerbase is much larger.

 

Not 100% decided yet, I do not know enough about either/or to make an absolute about the avenue I would want to take it. I am still going to look into the engine because it couldnt hurt and I need to expand upon my horizons.  I would say, because I hadn't initially thought of it, that the allure of making a game that could be played by a tablet would be wonderful!

As for making a killing, not really thought about that side of things to be honest. There is a LOT of work I need to do before I even get into the monetisation side of things. I mean, that side is a pinhole in the curtain of night kind of distance away. 

I think, for me I will aim to make a single player game (an RPG) first and expand from there improving my knowledge leading all the way up to this goal. 

After all I need to learn how to paint the fence and sand the floor before I get into the karate of it. 

Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by Tsumoro

What I really need to understand really, to get my 'foot' out the door is if I was to make this a website based game, (you played it from an in-web browser) what kinda coding language would I need to learn, what would be required in handling resources of allowing many individuals all interacting with each other like something such as pockie ninja or neopets. 

I will be essentially be working from the ground up, and although, a pipe dream per se, I would consider it to be a challenging hobby which continues until I either achieve... or die. Whatever comes first haha. 

Trying to make a browser-based game will make things harder on you.  For security reasons, there are a number of things that a browser-based program is not allowed to do, even though an ordinary standalone program would have no problem.  That's not to say that a browser-based game would be impossible; it's not, especially if you're going the 2D route.  (Modern 3D graphics, on the other hand, would be completely out of the question.)  But if you had the idea of making your game browser-based thinking that would be easier, then you shouldn't.

Provided that you pick a language that has the needed capabilities (e.g., trying to make an MMORPG in a language with no Internet capabilities isn't going to end well), it's less about the language you pick than what you do with it.

Oh lordy, I expect it to be an ungodly amount of work. But, I was more talking about the 3D aspect of things. if I am making 2D based games, then the 3D element of things won't be too much of a hinderance in moving forward. 

Originally posted by SabbathSMC

http://www.yoyogames.com/

 

this is one of the easiet game makers i have ever seen. Tons of tutorials to get you started.

That is wonderful! Thank you very much. 

 

I am now building up quite a bookmark of potential reading and experimentation to get the ball rolling. :)

  birdycephon

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 1327

Not Safe For Woona (NSFW)

3/14/13 1:39:54 PM#26
If you are thinking of using Fash to code an MMO, I can tell you right now it wont work. Flash is too slow and uses too much memory. For movies, its great, but not for complex calculations. Ive tried to do a simple top-down shoot-em-up game, and ive run into lag issues when I had too many objects flying around.
  Tsumoro

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/30/12
Posts: 388

 
OP  3/14/13 1:40:31 PM#27
Originally posted by Reskaillev
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Tsumoro

What I really need to understand really, to get my 'foot' out the door is if I was to make this a website based game, (you played it from an in-web browser) what kinda coding language would I need to learn, what would be required in handling resources of allowing many individuals all interacting with each other like something such as pockie ninja or neopets. 

I will be essentially be working from the ground up, and although, a pipe dream per se, I would consider it to be a challenging hobby which continues until I either achieve... or die. Whatever comes first haha. 

Trying to make a browser-based game will make things harder on you.  For security reasons, there are a number of things that a browser-based program is not allowed to do, even though an ordinary standalone program would have no problem.  That's not to say that a browser-based game would be impossible; it's not, especially if you're going the 2D route.  (Modern 3D graphics, on the other hand, would be completely out of the question.)  But if you had the idea of making your game browser-based thinking that would be easier, then you shouldn't.

Provided that you pick a language that has the needed capabilities (e.g., trying to make an MMORPG in a language with no Internet capabilities isn't going to end well), it's less about the language you pick than what you do with it.

I would actually think that Java Applets would be perfect for this, no worry about cross platform compability and very easy to get a server up and running using java sockets.

 

This also keeps it limited to one language instead of the juggernaut mmos that we have now, that generally use more than one coding language to get their game running. 

Interesting, would you say picking up something like 'Java for dummies' would be a good place for a beginner to start and build up a frame-work upwards?

  birdycephon

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 1327

Not Safe For Woona (NSFW)

3/14/13 1:45:59 PM#28
Originally posted by Tsumoro
Originally posted by Reskaillev
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Tsumoro

What I really need to understand really, to get my 'foot' out the door is if I was to make this a website based game, (you played it from an in-web browser) what kinda coding language would I need to learn, what would be required in handling resources of allowing many individuals all interacting with each other like something such as pockie ninja or neopets. 

I will be essentially be working from the ground up, and although, a pipe dream per se, I would consider it to be a challenging hobby which continues until I either achieve... or die. Whatever comes first haha. 

Trying to make a browser-based game will make things harder on you.  For security reasons, there are a number of things that a browser-based program is not allowed to do, even though an ordinary standalone program would have no problem.  That's not to say that a browser-based game would be impossible; it's not, especially if you're going the 2D route.  (Modern 3D graphics, on the other hand, would be completely out of the question.)  But if you had the idea of making your game browser-based thinking that would be easier, then you shouldn't.

Provided that you pick a language that has the needed capabilities (e.g., trying to make an MMORPG in a language with no Internet capabilities isn't going to end well), it's less about the language you pick than what you do with it.

I would actually think that Java Applets would be perfect for this, no worry about cross platform compability and very easy to get a server up and running using java sockets.

 

This also keeps it limited to one language instead of the juggernaut mmos that we have now, that generally use more than one coding language to get their game running. 

Interesting, would you say picking up something like 'Java for dummies' would be a good place for a beginner to start and build up a frame-work upwards?

Java is good for simple games, but not MMOs. You could try using it for the client, but the server, you might want to consider something faster like C.

  mmoski

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/08
Posts: 282

3/14/13 1:56:47 PM#29
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Tsumoro
Originally posted by Reskaillev
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by Tsumoro

What I really need to understand really, to get my 'foot' out the door is if I was to make this a website based game, (you played it from an in-web browser) what kinda coding language would I need to learn, what would be required in handling resources of allowing many individuals all interacting with each other like something such as pockie ninja or neopets. 

I will be essentially be working from the ground up, and although, a pipe dream per se, I would consider it to be a challenging hobby which continues until I either achieve... or die. Whatever comes first haha. 

Trying to make a browser-based game will make things harder on you.  For security reasons, there are a number of things that a browser-based program is not allowed to do, even though an ordinary standalone program would have no problem.  That's not to say that a browser-based game would be impossible; it's not, especially if you're going the 2D route.  (Modern 3D graphics, on the other hand, would be completely out of the question.)  But if you had the idea of making your game browser-based thinking that would be easier, then you shouldn't.

Provided that you pick a language that has the needed capabilities (e.g., trying to make an MMORPG in a language with no Internet capabilities isn't going to end well), it's less about the language you pick than what you do with it.

I would actually think that Java Applets would be perfect for this, no worry about cross platform compability and very easy to get a server up and running using java sockets.

 

This also keeps it limited to one language instead of the juggernaut mmos that we have now, that generally use more than one coding language to get their game running. 

Interesting, would you say picking up something like 'Java for dummies' would be a good place for a beginner to start and build up a frame-work upwards?

Java is good for simple games, but not MMOs. You could try using it for the client, but the server, you might want to consider something faster like C.

I think he would be better off avoiding learning multiple languages, what i would do is take a good look at books on  the language your thinking of using, bar that the net is a really good resource to just get started, spend a few days trying out some simple things, a key part of development is understanding what your doing, in this portion of testbeding, if something gets too confusing, or just doesnt gel with you move on and try something else, you may find that  one language suits you better than another.

Dont get hooked up on whats fastest, as your making a 2d game, many of the performance issues found with mmos you can ignore, and serverside speed will only limit the number of players you can host perserver. The only thing you need to worry about is can what your trying to do be done in your chosen API.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 14454

3/14/13 2:01:07 PM#30

Browser-based doesn't just make 3D harder.  It makes everything harder.  If you have a standalone client, you can freely read files, write files, modify files, and take as much space as you want.  You can use as much system memory as you want, up to the 2 GB cap of a 32-bit program.  You can get full access to tell the video card what you want to do.  All of that is far more restricted if you have a browser-based program.

One big issue is security.  If you load a web page, it might run some program on the page automatically--and potentially a program that you don't want to run.  So the capabilities of browser-based programs have to be crippled to prevent merely visiting a rogue web page from doing arbitrarily nasty things to your computer.

For a standalone program, on the other hand, before the program can run, the user has to intentionally download it and then run it--and realize that he's about to run an executable program.  Windows will bring up a box that says, hey, you're about to run a program, and it could potentially harm your computer.  Are you sure that you trust the source and want to do this?  That means that you have the user's explicit permission to make your program do whatever you want, so you're given permission to do a lot more.  There are some things that the OS or anti-virus software may block, but they generally aren't relevant to gaming.  For example, modifying the contents of a folder created to store your game is OK, while modifying the contents of a folder that contains Windows system files likely isn't.

If you really want to make a browser-based game, it's doable, especially since you're going to make it 2D anyway.  But it's harder than making exactly the same game with a standalone client.

-----

C++ seems to be the programming language of choice for AAA games.  But there are a number of languages that have all of the capabilities that you need.  Java is free, and you can download Eclipse (to program in Java) for free, read here to learn the language for free:

http://math.hws.edu/javanotes/

and download JOGL to give you access to OpenGL for graphics for free here:

http://jogamp.org/

JOGL basically gives you the capability to make a game window and draw graphical stuff on it using OpenGL.  It's not a complete game engine by any stretch.

While that's built for 3D graphics, modern video cards (loosely, anything from the last decade) are all built for 3D graphics.  If you want to make 2D graphics, then doing it using it using tools that were built for 3D might well be the best way to put modern hardware to good use.  You can do 2D graphics in the normal 3D pipeline by always setting the w component of gl_Position to 1, and setting the z component to whatever you want between -1 and 1, so long as the things that are supposed to appear on "top" have a smaller z component than the things that they're supposed to cover up.  The x and y components are just coordinates of where things will appear on the game window.

I'm sure that there are a number of other such programming languages and tools that likewise have the capabilities that you'll need.  I just don't know where they are--and some are likely to be expensive.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22277

3/14/13 2:03:14 PM#31

Are you doing it just for fun and as a hobby?

Or are you expecting to make a living out of it?

If it is the formal, then it is easy ... just dabble here and there, and try one of these software people are talking about.

Don't count on making a living though.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 14454

3/14/13 2:05:05 PM#32
Originally posted by mmoski
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Tsumoro

Interesting, would you say picking up something like 'Java for dummies' would be a good place for a beginner to start and build up a frame-work upwards?

Java is good for simple games, but not MMOs. You could try using it for the client, but the server, you might want to consider something faster like C.

I think he would be better off avoiding learning multiple languages, what i would do is take a good look at books on  the language your thinking of using, bar that the net is a really good resource to just get started, spend a few days trying out some simple things, a key part of development is understanding what your doing, in this portion of testbeding, if something gets too confusing, or just doesnt gel with you move on and try something else, you may find that  one language suits you better than another.

Dont get hooked up on whats fastest, as your making a 2d game, many of the performance issues found with mmos you can ignore, and serverside speed will only limit the number of players you can host perserver. The only thing you need to worry about is can what your trying to do be done in your chosen API.

Java is plenty fast enough, as would a number of other programming languages.  And that's even if you want to do a bunch of fancy 3D things.  For a purely 2D game, it's fast enough by an enormous margin.

As for C, I've never used it, but a friend explained to me that C offers you all of the power of assembly language, together with all of the convenience of assembly language.  I really doubt that that's what you want to use to make a game.

  Sciva

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/08/07
Posts: 309

3/14/13 2:10:50 PM#33

http://mmorpgmaker.org/

http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/eclipse/

These two might be worth a look at. I used to run a game using somthing similar (which isn't around anymore) but it would be a good starting point.

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6361

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

3/14/13 2:15:14 PM#34

First do not explain your game just yet....do explain it to close friends/relatives or family but just not public just yet.

Also as your title states  "So, I want to make an MMO But have no clue how to..." indicates that you shouldn't start making one of the most complex genre in gaming.

Here are some links that might be usefull for you:

http://www.gamedev.net/page/index.html

http://channel9.msdn.com/coding4fun/articles/Beginning-Game-Development-Part-I--Introduction

http://devmaster.net/

And sorry I don't want sound harsh but please if you are really serious start small, you already did a small part with RPG maker, how far did you go, did you made a complete game?  Have others played it?

Atleast try to be able to make a complete game, start with singleplayer games. Atleast that is what I would suggest when reading your OP.

 

  mmoski

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/08
Posts: 282

3/14/13 2:22:54 PM#35
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by mmoski
Originally posted by birdycephon
Originally posted by Tsumoro

Interesting, would you say picking up something like 'Java for dummies' would be a good place for a beginner to start and build up a frame-work upwards?

Java is good for simple games, but not MMOs. You could try using it for the client, but the server, you might want to consider something faster like C.

I think he would be better off avoiding learning multiple languages, what i would do is take a good look at books on  the language your thinking of using, bar that the net is a really good resource to just get started, spend a few days trying out some simple things, a key part of development is understanding what your doing, in this portion of testbeding, if something gets too confusing, or just doesnt gel with you move on and try something else, you may find that  one language suits you better than another.

Dont get hooked up on whats fastest, as your making a 2d game, many of the performance issues found with mmos you can ignore, and serverside speed will only limit the number of players you can host perserver. The only thing you need to worry about is can what your trying to do be done in your chosen API.

Java is plenty fast enough, as would a number of other programming languages.  And that's even if you want to do a bunch of fancy 3D things.  For a purely 2D game, it's fast enough by an enormous margin.

As for C, I've never used it, but a friend explained to me that C offers you all of the power of assembly language, together with all of the convenience of assembly language.  I really doubt that that's what you want to use to make a game.

Yeah, C\C++ is the fastest, and yeah its had years of complier work, and ASM'ing some kind of functionality based on instruction sets is fast stuff, if this was just about learning a language, i would say ignore the others and learn C\C++, once learnt, every nearly every other language will be easy to get into.(note i said nearly, pearl and APL still look like gibberish to me, haha).

  Yyrkoon_PoM

Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 150

3/14/13 2:24:30 PM#36

There is no reason you can't build a 3D web based game using Flash or Shockwave.

http://www.maidmarian.com/home.html is one example of a project that was started and shipped by one person.

Best advice I can give is to start off by getting a job in the industry (QA, Production, Programmer, Marketing, Intern ... anything will work) and just learn from your co-workers. All the other things people have said about languages, math, databasses, etc are also things you will need. Also don't be afraid to ask for feedback from the people testing/playing your game.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19962

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

3/14/13 2:26:51 PM#37

A little real world experience working for an actual game development organization (not necessarily a MMO maker) wouldn't hurt either.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  alkarionlog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 1122

3/14/13 2:33:57 PM#38
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Quizzical

If you want your game to ever exist, you basically have two options:

1)  Make it yourself.

2)  Get rich and then hire other people to make it for you.

Coulnd't he just be the artist/writer  and make it work that way?

 

AND get all the programmers, animators etc.

I guess that is the get rich part

FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 14454

3/14/13 2:34:19 PM#39
Originally posted by Yyrkoon_PoM

There is no reason you can't build a 3D web based game using Flash or Shockwave.

http://www.maidmarian.com/home.html is one example of a project that was started and shipped by one person.

Best advice I can give is to start off by getting a job in the industry (QA, Production, Programmer, Marketing, Intern ... anything will work) and just learn from your co-workers. All the other things people have said about languages, math, databasses, etc are also things you will need. Also don't be afraid to ask for feedback from the people testing/playing your game.

While it's possible to make a 3D browser-based game, insisting on browser-based really cripples you.  It means that, among other things, you'll have no access to DirectX or OpenGL, which are the main graphics APIs.  You can't even get access to OpenGL ES, the gimpy subset of OpenGL that tablets and cell phones commonly used.  There is WebGL, but that makes even the archaic DirectX 9.0c look positively futuristic by comparison.

Not having a good graphics API available means that you have to do a lot of GPU-friendly work on the CPU instead.  That, in turn, can easily kill your performance.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 18260

3/14/13 2:35:19 PM#40
Originally posted by Reskaillev
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Reskaillev

Get a team...

 

You can't do this alone in any decent amount of time, you are NOT a one man army.

Get some intrested ppl with skills together and start working :)

 

Where to find these people? If you know this, please tell me ASAP :)

Though, if one has the talent, ability and time one "could" do it alone...

http://www.1up.com/news/indie-mmo-love

but this is the exception rather than the rule.

Fixed something there :)

Talent and ability mostly aren't the primary problem.

Actually I would say talent and ability are the problem. Unless something is seriously "seriously" wrong, we all have time. Not all of us have equal talent and ability.

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