Originally posted by Iselin
I have to hand it to you guys. You certainly are creative when it comes to proposing basic design choices other than those the developers chose. Me? I want the spellmaker to make a strong comeback in TESO.

Yeah the spellmaking was one of my favorite parts too.

As for creativity, that comes from too much time, not enough information, the information we have so far being really uninspiring and a nasty feeling that the TES name is being used to try and release the only idea that Matt Frior has rattling around in that noggin of his. As with anything, if you see someone doing something and it makes you cringe it is natural to try and do something about it.

It's very lear you never played DAoC or you would understand how integral not being able to interact with the other  side is to immersion, realm pride, and motivation to fight.

Yeah we're at war! But you can hang out in our bar and no one will do anything about it.

Absolutely moronic idea.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
So what do you do once you can wander anywhere? By your suggestion there would be no PvP, if I read right you cant enter the other factions dungeons. Quests and story are writen for the faction that map is made for? So were there just to look around?

You could easily expand on that by having PvE quests originate on your Factions side, but must be done in the PvE areas of the other Factions. Spying, Sabotage, Assassinations, Theft, etc.

You could add the ability for the players of the enemy Faction to be able to "sight and verify" you and call for a roaming guard patrol to engage and take you out.

Now you would also have to make it so the main Faction cities are so fortified and the guards extremely tough as to avoid mass enemy PC zergs (limit the # of enemy PCs on opposing Faction sides per campaign/mirror), but you could make the outer areas closer to the other Factions borders less fortified and more accessable to enemy encounters.

Expand your mind and think outside that DAOC triangle. Its easy if you try.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's very lear you never played DAoC or you would understand how integral not being able to interact with the other  side is to immersion, realm pride, and motivation to fight.

Yeah we're at war! But you can hang out in our bar and no one will do anything about it.

Absolutely moronic idea.

The game is named Elder Scrolls Online, not DAoC2.  They made the decisions  about this 'faction war' to fit that, not because of some overarcing great story or plot idea.

Where's your realm pride with my three alts in different regions so that I can see each area?   I most likely will rarely be involved in the conflict in Cyrodil.   Take that, Realm Pride!

Cookie cutter design.

I remember when I first played Daggerfall, I thought it was perhaps the most expansive game out there. When I got Morrowind, I was kinda disappointed that I was restricted to only 1 island, in 1 area Tamriel. The graphics (at the time) were far better however, and the story was pretty damn good as well.

The one thing that I kept thinking while playing Morrowind however was; man if they ever decided to go back to opening the entire world, that would be one hell of an MMO.

Then came Skyrim for me (didn't play much Oblivion really), and once again I thought that if they can put That level of detail, but into the entire world of Nirn, that would be a slam dunk.

Now we are looking at Teso, and I am finally able to once again explore the entirety of Tamriel...oh wait...I'm not really. Not unless I decide to roll 3 toons, on opposing factions. I am not pleased.

But, I will most likely check it out, it is elder scrolls after all, and they haven't done me too wrong with that franchise yet (I choose to forget Battlespire ;) )

'Just do all these changes', ignores both the difficulty of doing game re-development and the real world business issues. 

Much as I'd like to see some of these ideas implemented,  many of you really are just tremendously unaware of  how serious that endevour would be.  

Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's very lear you never played DAoC or you would understand how integral not being able to interact with the other  side is to immersion, realm pride, and motivation to fight.

Yeah we're at war! But you can hang out in our bar and no one will do anything about it.

Absolutely moronic idea.

One could come back and say "well, you have never played an elder Scrolls game where you can go anywhere and do anything you want." I don't necessarily believe that's true but your post does sound that way.

The crux of your argument is ""you've never played DAoC". And I would say "well, I've tried it but never got that far into the game but sure, that sounds great. Now about a game series I have played..."

The main bone of contention for some (and I will admit that it's not a necessarily a deal breaker for me but I don't like it) is "what's DAoC doing in Elder Scrolls?

I will tell you that my background is lineage 2 and "pride" had more to do with your clan and your alliance. Not some realm. So I don't care about my realm. I do care about the players that I align myself with.

As far as "being at war" and not attcking or being attacked, well, as I said in another thread yesterday that would be a contrivance similiar to any number of mmo contrivances such as "you are the only hero on this quest" but the reality is you are one of thousands or "we just destroyed the World Eater Archeopteryx!" Yet he will respawn in a few hours or will be completely alive when another group adds an instance.

Same with seeing the "enemy". Though truth be told, being at war doesn't exclude a particular racial or ethnic group in your lands. So yeah, the US was at war with German andy Japan but there were people of German and japanese ancestry in the US. And not treated very well I might add which of course goes back to the OP's proposition.

Otherwise, I personally would be happy to be able to attack and be attackable when I go into enemy lands. But that's me.

Originally posted by Arglebargle

Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's very lear you never played DAoC or you would understand how integral not being able to interact with the other  side is to immersion, realm pride, and motivation to fight.

Yeah we're at war! But you can hang out in our bar and no one will do anything about it.

Absolutely moronic idea.

 

The game is named Elder Scrolls Online, not DAoC2.  They made the decisions  about this 'faction war' to fit that, not because of some overacring great story or plot idea.

 

Where's your realm pride with my three alts in different regions so that I can see each area?   I most likely will rarely be involved in the conflict in Cyrodil.   Take that, Realm Pride!

 

Cookie cutter design.

I will copy and paste something I said in another thread...

New does not mean better. Matter of FACT!!!!! Over the past 6-8 years compnies keep trying to remake what made MMOs awesome and most have failed. Few exceptions to that rule like EVE but thats not the norm. The drive to grassroots is something devs are seeing as needed to make MMOs function again. Sure keep the modern twists like VO acting but the core of what made MMO great needs to be really looked at. Want awesome PvP, well lets look at what really worked. What game had the best faction pride, lets look at what game did that and how that happened. Want an awesome temepark MMO, again lets look at what made things like WoW really work. Core models need to be looked at as a whole. Not slapped together like frankenstein hack job and say, WE HAVE LIFE!!!! 

IMO and I know I am not alone in this. I think MMOs need to make a grassroots movment back to what made MMOs great. Remaking the wheel is not the answer. What MMO gave the best faction pride? Would faction lock bring that back? Is it time someone tired to? I get the OPs idea and it could be awesome but do we really want to change the core model of what made DAoC 3 faction pride/war awesome? I guess there is something to gain and lose on both sides of this. I hope the ESO devs stick to their guns. 

As for the OP idea... Could work. 

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's very lear you never played DAoC or you would understand how integral not being able to interact with the other  side is to immersion, realm pride, and motivation to fight.

Yeah we're at war! But you can hang out in our bar and no one will do anything about it.

Absolutely moronic idea.

One could come back and say "well, you have never played an elder Scrolls game where you can go anywhere and do anything you want." I don't necessarily believe that's true but your post does sound that way.

The crux of your argument is ""you've never played DAoC". And I would say "well, I've tried it but never got that far into the game but sure, that sounds great. Now about a game series I have played..."

The main bone of contention for some (and I will admit that it's not a necessarily a deal breaker for me but I don't like it) is "what's DAoC doing in Elder Scrolls?

I will tell you that my background is lineage 2 and "pride" had more to do with your clan and your alliance. Not some realm. So I don't care about my realm. I do care about the players that I align myself with.

As far as "being at war" and not attcking or being attacked, well, as I said in another thread yesterday that would be a contrivance similiar to any number of mmo contrivances such as "you are the only hero on this quest" but the reality is you are one of thousands or "we just destroyed the World Eater Archeopteryx!" Yet he will respawn in a few hours or will be completely alive when another group adds an instance.

Same with seeing the "enemy". Though truth be told, being at war doesn't exclude a particular racial or ethnic group in your lands. So yeah, the US was at war with German andy Japan but there were people of German and japanese ancestry in the US. And not treated very well I might add which of course goes back to the OP's proposition.

Otherwise, I personally would be happy to be able to attack and be attackable when I go into enemy lands. But that's me.

 

As always, calm, collected and spot on.

Nanofoodle, there is a big difference between using an idea as the basis for a design and copying the entire design. What has been done is they have taken the design of DAOC, copied into TESO and said "Right, how do we get this to work". Or at least that is how it feels. It may be great we just don't know but you can't argue that that is what has been done

(Now remember, this is a difference of opinion so please do not copy paste that long "you hate TESO, you hate the world" post of yours).

Originally posted by Maelwydd

 

As always, calm, collected and spot on.

And, when seen in a mirror, closer than I appear. Creepily so.

(thanks!)

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Arglebargle

Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's very lear you never played DAoC or you would understand how integral not being able to interact with the other  side is to immersion, realm pride, and motivation to fight.

Yeah we're at war! But you can hang out in our bar and no one will do anything about it.

Absolutely moronic idea.

 

The game is named Elder Scrolls Online, not DAoC2.  They made the decisions  about this 'faction war' to fit that, not because of some overacring great story or plot idea.

 

Where's your realm pride with my three alts in different regions so that I can see each area?   I most likely will rarely be involved in the conflict in Cyrodil.   Take that, Realm Pride!

 

Cookie cutter design.

I will copy and paste something I said in another thread...

New does not mean better. Matter of FACT!!!!! Over the past 6-8 years compnies keep trying to remake what made MMOs awesome and most have failed. Few exceptions to that rule like EVE but thats not the norm. The drive to grassroots is something devs are seeing as needed to make MMOs function again. Sure keep the modern twists like VO acting but the core of what made MMO great needs to be really looked at. Want awesome PvP, well lets look at what really worked. What game had the best faction pride, lets look at what game did that and how that happened. Want an awesome temepark MMO, again lets look at what made things like WoW really work. Core models need to be looked at as a whole. Not slapped together like frankenstein hack job and say, WE HAVE LIFE!!!! 

IMO and I know I am not alone in this. I think MMOs need to make a grassroots movment back to what made MMOs great. Remaking the wheel is not the answer. What MMO gave the best faction pride? Would faction lock bring that back? Is it time someone tired to? I get the OPs idea and it could be awesome but do we really want to change the core model of what made DAoC 3 faction pride/war awesome? I guess there is something to gain and lose on both sides of this. I hope the ESO devs stick to their guns. 

As for the OP idea... Could work. 

 

They brought that realm/faction thing into a world that didn't have it.  To players whose interests were not particularly aligned to it.   We'll see if it works, but as I have already said,  When you use a developed world to push your game, you get the expectations of that world (and the players too) along with it.   They wanted the draw of Elder Scrolls, they have to put up with problems that brings as well.

I'd agree that there needs to be a move back to smaller, niche games that are more focused on particular styles of play.  Should be good for players and developers alike.  So that everyone can find the style they'd like to play.    Don't disagree with that.  But your era of 'great' games?   I investigated all the MMOs of that period and found them severely wanting.  They weren't great for me, they kept me from playing  MMOs for years. 

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's very lear you never played DAoC or you would understand how integral not being able to interact with the other  side is to immersion, realm pride, and motivation to fight.

Yeah we're at war! But you can hang out in our bar and no one will do anything about it.

Absolutely moronic idea.

One could come back and say "well, you have never played an elder Scrolls game where you can go anywhere and do anything you want." I don't necessarily believe that's true but your post does sound that way.

The crux of your argument is ""you've never played DAoC". And I would say "well, I've tried it but never got that far into the game but sure, that sounds great. Now about a game series I have played..."

The main bone of contention for some (and I will admit that it's not a necessarily a deal breaker for me but I don't like it) is "what's DAoC doing in Elder Scrolls?

I will tell you that my background is lineage 2 and "pride" had more to do with your clan and your alliance. Not some realm. So I don't care about my realm. I do care about the players that I align myself with.

As far as "being at war" and not attcking or being attacked, well, as I said in another thread yesterday that would be a contrivance similiar to any number of mmo contrivances such as "you are the only hero on this quest" but the reality is you are one of thousands or "we just destroyed the World Eater Archeopteryx!" Yet he will respawn in a few hours or will be completely alive when another group adds an instance.

Same with seeing the "enemy". Though truth be told, being at war doesn't exclude a particular racial or ethnic group in your lands. So yeah, the US was at war with German andy Japan but there were people of German and japanese ancestry in the US. And not treated very well I might add which of course goes back to the OP's proposition.

Otherwise, I personally would be happy to be able to attack and be attackable when I go into enemy lands. But that's me.

 

Are you seriously, HONESETLY trying to compare NPCs and players not attacking a race/civilization they're in active war with, to respawning enemies?

SERIOUSLY?

There is absolutely nothing wrong in the ES lore with factions being at war with one another. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using DAoC RvR design as a vehicle to get across the weight and reality of the conflict.

There is something VERY wrong with having a 3 faction war, but allowing you to group and frollic in the heartland of the enemy empire, with NO CONSEQUENCES.

Just make an alt. That's a far FAR simpler solution than the ugly bloody bandaid the OP suggested.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's very lear you never played DAoC or you would understand how integral not being able to interact with the other  side is to immersion, realm pride, and motivation to fight.

Yeah we're at war! But you can hang out in our bar and no one will do anything about it.

Absolutely moronic idea.

One could come back and say "well, you have never played an elder Scrolls game where you can go anywhere and do anything you want." I don't necessarily believe that's true but your post does sound that way.

The crux of your argument is ""you've never played DAoC". And I would say "well, I've tried it but never got that far into the game but sure, that sounds great. Now about a game series I have played..."

The main bone of contention for some (and I will admit that it's not a necessarily a deal breaker for me but I don't like it) is "what's DAoC doing in Elder Scrolls?

I will tell you that my background is lineage 2 and "pride" had more to do with your clan and your alliance. Not some realm. So I don't care about my realm. I do care about the players that I align myself with.

As far as "being at war" and not attcking or being attacked, well, as I said in another thread yesterday that would be a contrivance similiar to any number of mmo contrivances such as "you are the only hero on this quest" but the reality is you are one of thousands or "we just destroyed the World Eater Archeopteryx!" Yet he will respawn in a few hours or will be completely alive when another group adds an instance.

Same with seeing the "enemy". Though truth be told, being at war doesn't exclude a particular racial or ethnic group in your lands. So yeah, the US was at war with German andy Japan but there were people of German and japanese ancestry in the US. And not treated very well I might add which of course goes back to the OP's proposition.

Otherwise, I personally would be happy to be able to attack and be attackable when I go into enemy lands. But that's me.

 

Are you seriously, HONESETLY trying to compare NPCs and players not attacking a race/civilization they're in active war with, to respawning enemies?

SERIOUSLY?

There is absolutely nothing wrong in the ES lore with factions being at war with one another. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using DAoC RvR design as a vehicle to get across the weight and reality of the conflict.

There is something VERY wrong with having a 3 faction war, but allowing you to group and frollic in the heartland of the enemy empire, with NO CONSEQUENCES.

Just make an alt. That's a far FAR simpler solution than the ugly bloody bandaid the OP suggested.

No. I never once said anything about NPC's (unless you are referring to my made up Boss mob). I indicated that not attacking fellow players would be a contrivance (to use that word for the umpteenth time in two days) and that though it is as strange as the other mmo conventions that I mentioend, it would work.

Also, I think you really need to reread my post as your seemingly exasperated tone suggests that you are "reacting" over "acting".

I'll leave you with this from the post you quoted: Otherwise, I personally would be happy to be able to attack and be attackable when I go into enemy lands. But that's me.

and now in context to what you wrote:

you:

There is something VERY wrong with having a 3 faction war, but allowing you to group and frollic in the heartland of the enemy empire, with NO CONSEQUENCES.

me:

Otherwise, I personally would be happy to be able to attack and be attackable when I go into enemy lands. But that's me.

edit: and who said anything about not having consequences? Whether pvp or pve? Sign me up for consequences!

Originally posted by DavisFlight

There is absolutely nothing wrong in the ES lore with factions being at war with one another. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using DAoC RvR design as a vehicle to get across the weight and reality of the conflict.

Nothing wrong with it of course but is it the best fit for TESO and does using it mean there is absolutely no way to allow exploration, an open map and the ability for players to choose their path ather then it being dictated?

I could live with having 3 faction PvP as a main feature, where the fighting is kept within Cyrodil (using their own lore) and where I choose which faction to fight for not based on what race I am but on which side I wish to choose.

My problem is the whole argument is being put forward as an OR function when it is entirely possible to have designed it with an AND fucntion.

There is something VERY wrong with having a 3 faction war, but allowing you to group and frollic in the heartland of the enemy empire, with NO CONSEQUENCES.

Actually TESO lore already provides the reason for it. The 3 factions have agreed to keep the fight to Cyrodil only. So it actually make a LOT of sense in the context of the current game design. With that in mind, what I find very wrong is that you cannot choose to opt out of the fight, you cannot travel the world if you do so and that 100% of each race, without exception is ok with what is taking place.

Just make an alt. That's a far FAR simpler solution than the ugly bloody bandaid the OP suggested.

Simpler? Yes. Do I want to do that? No. Should I have to do that? No. Is it impossible to allow it? No.

Originally posted by Arglebargle

They brought that realm/faction thing into a world that didn't have it.  To players whose interests were not particularly aligned to it.   We'll see if it works, but as I have already said,  When you use a developed world to push your game, you get the expectations of that world (and the players too) along with it.   They wanted the draw of Elder Scrolls, they have to put up with problems that brings as well.

Even Mark Jacobs says something similar when talking about faction pride (here).  The Elder Scrolls world just doesn't support faction pride imo.  Players have more pride in their characters and the decisions they make.  Relations between the races have always been intricate, not cut and dry.

To me, it just doesn't make sense that the races allied with enemies when they don't even get along with themselves.  If a Nord High King would've aligned with the Dunmer, there would be a rebellion within the Nord Kingdom (and if it was following the spirit of TES games you would be able to join the Nord High King or the rebellion no matter your race, lol).

I'd agree that there needs to be a move back to smaller, niche games that are more focused on particular styles of play.  Should be good for players and developers alike.  So that everyone can find the style they'd like to play.    Don't disagree with that.  But your era of 'great' games?   I investigated all the MMOs of that period and found them severely wanting.  They weren't great for me, they kept me from playing  MMOs for years. 

I would've loved for ESO to create their own legend.  TES had a lot of great material that would've translated into a MMO but instead it feels like an RvR niche game itself.  I don't see them trying to appeal to TES fans or MMO players.

This is my opinion and I'm not trying to bash the game or offend anyone.  I welcome any feedback and we can have a civil discourse but I'm getting tired of being personally attacked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_Adventures:_Redguard

Not all Tes games are free roaming explorathons. Get over it.

Originally posted by sapphen

Originally posted by Arglebargle

They brought that realm/faction thing into a world that didn't have it.  To players whose interests were not particularly aligned to it.   We'll see if it works, but as I have already said,  When you use a developed world to push your game, you get the expectations of that world (and the players too) along with it.   They wanted the draw of Elder Scrolls, they have to put up with problems that brings as well.

Even Mark Jacobs says something similar when talking about faction pride (here).  The Elder Scrolls world just doesn't support faction pride imo.  Players have more pride in their characters and the decisions they make.  Relations between the races have always been intricate, not cut and dry.

To me, it just doesn't make sense that the races allied with enemies when they don't even get along with themselves.  If a Nord High King would've aligned with the Dunmer, there would be a rebellion within the Nord Kingdom (and if it was following the spirit of TES games you would be able to join the Nord High King or the rebellion no matter your race, lol).

I'd agree that there needs to be a move back to smaller, niche games that are more focused on particular styles of play.  Should be good for players and developers alike.  So that everyone can find the style they'd like to play.    Don't disagree with that.  But your era of 'great' games?   I investigated all the MMOs of that period and found them severely wanting.  They weren't great for me, they kept me from playing  MMOs for years. 

I would've loved for ESO to create their own legend.  TES had a lot of great material that would've translated into a MMO but instead it feels like an RvR niche game itself.  I don't see them trying to appeal to TES fans or MMO players.

This is my opinion and I'm not trying to bash the game or offend anyone.  I welcome any feedback and we can have a civil discourse but I'm getting tired of being personally attacked.

Far from a niche game, CU is niche in every way. You get RvR and thats it. ESO is trying for the full package. TES story and lore, DAoC RvR style PvP, SWToR VO story, Action combat based combat, Class system with freedom you dont see often in a MMO, Open world and instanced dungeons and more!!! To big to be called niche.

Originally posted by jimdandy26

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_Adventures:_Redguard

Not all Tes games are free roaming explorathons. Get over it.

Again, another hostile response when it's not needed.  Nobody is hating on your game man, chill out.  We're just talking dandyman.

I've actually changed my views on this topic. I agree with faction lock, no cross faction communication, and no pvp outside of Cyrodiil, but I think they could do some interesting home invasion/subterfuge style quests as have been suggested.

They could have NPCs in your home realm indicate a need for heroes to go behind enemy lines, and offer to smuggle you through the borders. Then you have certain remotely located NPCs that have two dialogue branches. If you're same faction they send you on whatever normal faction quests exist. If you're cross faction, there's a separate dialogue where you find out the NPC is actually a traitor, and he has quests that send you to counteract whatever the same faction players are doing. It could even be a direct, competition style PvE minigame between the factions.

Not only does this provide some interesting story and activities, but it allows the access and exploration of the other areas of Tamriel that everyone wants.