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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do LFG System really ruin the community?

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385 posts found
  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

3/17/13 4:54:29 AM#161
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by GreenHell

To me running a dungeon is like going to a store. Just because there are people there I don't need to talk to all of them. I don't need to make friends everytime I go to walmart. I'm not rude. Im not a douche bag to people. I just don't have a need or the desire to be social. I am at the store for a reason. I want to accomplish my task and leave. Thats the way I feel about running a dungeon or a raid. I believe in communication. I believe in working as a cohesive team to accomplish our goal. I just want to stay focused on that goal so we can part ways as quickly as possible.

Could have fooled me.

If someone wants to group with others I expect those people to have the courtesy to say hi and to at least introduce themselves.

Why people who do not want to talk, do not want to socialise and don't even care about other people want to play with other people is beyond my comprehension.

You are a good candidate for battle arena games like League of Legends, but I have no idea why you would want to play MMO when you don't seem to even like other people.

So to you I am a douche bag because I don't play the game the same way you do? To me you seem to be a lonely, desperate person who is in need of attention 24/7. See how easy it is to label people.

  CalmOceans

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 2048

3/17/13 4:56:05 AM#162
Originally posted by GreenHell

As a player I am always prepared. I pull good numbers. I look up fights if it's my first time running a dungeon or raid. I research my class. I do everything that I am supposed to. I do my part to make sure that we are successful. So why do I need to be your friend?

It's not about being my friend, it's about basic respect in games that seems to be lost.

When you have only 30 minutes to play, do you throw a hissy fit when someone has to AFK for 10 minutes or do you understand that not everyone wants to zergrush content?

I am a bit tired of people who play games like they play a casual console game, logging in for 10 minutes and expecting everyone to rush and run because they need to be at their job in half an hour, unable to say hi to other people but being a moutfull when something goes wrong which could cost them 5 minutes of not killing mobs.

It's extremely hard to have fun with those people and I often wish they would just stop playing MMO.

  simmihi

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/10
Posts: 537

3/17/13 4:56:44 AM#163
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by simmihi

For the "community" part alone, I'm sorry, but I'm not primarly looking to "create a community", I'm looking to have fun.

That's fine, there are many action games for you like League of Legends.

Dashing through what I've wrote only to pull things out of context does not make you as interesting and smart as you want to appear. Please, quote the whole thing and discuss the whole thing if you want to.

  trikki

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/21/09
Posts: 58

3/17/13 4:57:26 AM#164
this is from wow perspective, i have done all the 40 man,25,10man raids in all expansions.For me now the LFG/LFR are really good options.i dont have time or interest to dedicate my time to raids with certain times and days.I really like to do them when i want.I still do some stuff in the guild.LFG is really good too,i remember the vanilla days,when it tooked ages to go in instances.Wipes in the instances,lot of people didnt have a clue where to run to get to your body or didnt find th rest of the group.
  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

3/17/13 5:03:44 AM#165
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by GreenHell

As a player I am always prepared. I pull good numbers. I look up fights if it's my first time running a dungeon or raid. I research my class. I do everything that I am supposed to. I do my part to make sure that we are successful. So why do I need to be your friend?

It's not about being my friend, it's about basic respect in games that seems to be lost.

When you have only 30 minutes to play, do you throw a hissy fit when someone has to AFK for 10 minutes or do you understand that not everyone wants to zergrush content?

I am a bit tired of people who play games like they play a casual console game, logging in for 10 minutes and expecting everyone to rush and run because they need to be at their job in half an hour, unable to say hi to other people but being a moutfull when something goes wrong which could cost them 5 minutes of not killing mobs.

It's extremely hard to have fun with those people and I often wish they would just stop playing MMO.

Let me ask you this. How is it fair if you are in a 25 man group to make 24 other people wait for you for 10 mins? How is that being respectful at all? I would never do that. I would leave the raid.

Your logic is flawed. You are not looking for respect you are looking for special treatment. You don't care about those other 24 people just about yourself. It is rude to say the very least. Would you do that in the real world. Would you make 24 "real" people wait for you?

I never complain when I am in a raid or dungeon. I don't talk. There is no reason to unless I am asked a question or I can give advice on how to beat the encounter. If it's a wipe so be it. These things happen. I plan my game time around my real life. Not the other way around.

  CalmOceans

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 2048

3/17/13 5:08:40 AM#166
Originally posted by GreenHell

Let me ask you this. How is it fair if you are in a 25 man group to make 24 other people wait for you for 10 mins? How is that being respectful at all? I would never do that. I would leave the raid.

That doesn't happen even in games without LFD. In fact games without LFD like Everquest have 60 man raids and never did someone being AFK cause an issue.

I would love to see those new MMO players lead 60+ man raids when they can only play for 30 minutes and throw a fit if something doesn't go their way.

  trikki

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/21/09
Posts: 58

3/17/13 5:09:20 AM#167
Originally posted by GreenHell
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by GreenHell

As a player I am always prepared. I pull good numbers. I look up fights if it's my first time running a dungeon or raid. I research my class. I do everything that I am supposed to. I do my part to make sure that we are successful. So why do I need to be your friend?

It's not about being my friend, it's about basic respect in games that seems to be lost.

When you have only 30 minutes to play, do you throw a hissy fit when someone has to AFK for 10 minutes or do you understand that not everyone wants to zergrush content?

I am a bit tired of people who play games like they play a casual console game, logging in for 10 minutes and expecting everyone to rush and run because they need to be at their job in half an hour, unable to say hi to other people but being a moutfull when something goes wrong which could cost them 5 minutes of not killing mobs.

It's extremely hard to have fun with those people and I often wish they would just stop playing MMO.

Let me ask you this. How is it fair if you are in a 25 man group to make 24 other people wait for you for 10 mins? How is that being respectful at all? I would never do that. I would leave the raid.

Your logic is flawed. You are not looking for respect you are looking for special treatment. You don't care about those other 24 people just about yourself. It is rude to say the very least. Would you do that in the real world. Would you make 24 "real" people wait for you?

I never complain when I am in a raid or dungeon. I don't talk. There is no reason to unless I am asked a question or I can give advice on how to beat the encounter. If it's a wipe so be it. These things happen. I plan my game time around my real life. Not the other way around.

I feel exactly like you,i hate thos epeople that comes to raid or party and say brb dinner 15 min.And you cant kick them,your only choice is to wait for that guy.

 

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

3/17/13 5:14:20 AM#168
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by GreenHell

Let me ask you this. How is it fair if you are in a 25 man group to make 24 other people wait for you for 10 mins? How is that being respectful at all? I would never do that. I would leave the raid.

That doesn't happen even in games without LFD. In fact games without LFD like Everquest have 60 man raids and never did someone being AFK cause an issue.

You are so wrong. It happened to me the other day. That same exact situation. He expected the raid to wait for him. He was gone at least 10 mins and then came back pissed off that we did not wait. We really should have booted him. That behavior is not fair and should not be tolerated. We didn't though and we had another 30 mins of him complaining about how we didn't wait and he missed a chance to get loot. So you tell me how thats fair? How do you justify making other people wait for you? Why are you so special? Who are you that I should waste my time sitting there for no other reason than your real world got in the way? Shouldn't you have just left of the raid? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do?

  CalmOceans

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 2048

3/17/13 5:15:51 AM#169
Originally posted by GreenHell
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by GreenHell

Let me ask you this. How is it fair if you are in a 25 man group to make 24 other people wait for you for 10 mins? How is that being respectful at all? I would never do that. I would leave the raid.

That doesn't happen even in games without LFD. In fact games without LFD like Everquest have 60 man raids and never did someone being AFK cause an issue.

You are so wrong. It happened to me the other day.

On what game?

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

3/17/13 5:20:03 AM#170
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by GreenHell
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by GreenHell

Let me ask you this. How is it fair if you are in a 25 man group to make 24 other people wait for you for 10 mins? How is that being respectful at all? I would never do that. I would leave the raid.

That doesn't happen even in games without LFD. In fact games without LFD like Everquest have 60 man raids and never did someone being AFK cause an issue.

You are so wrong. It happened to me the other day.

On what game?

Does it matter? Are we going to play the "one game has a horrible community and the other doesn't" card? Does it really matter? The act is the same no matter what game it was. If you do this crap in WoW or in Eve it is the same. It's not about the game it is about the lack of respect that you obviously have no problem with.

  CalmOceans

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 2048

3/17/13 5:22:46 AM#171
Originally posted by GreenHell

On what game?

Does it matter? Are we going to play the "one game has a horrible community and the other doesn't" card? Does it really matter? The act is the same no matter what game it was. If you do this crap in WoW or in Eve it is the same. It's not about the game it is about the lack of respect that you obviously have no problem with.

It matters since I assume it's an LFD game, which is exactly why you are having issues. LFD raids often have anonymous PUG raids and people tend to go AFK and you get the dramaqueens and arguments you talk about.

  observer

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/05
Posts: 2452

First came pride, then envy.

3/17/13 5:24:11 AM#172

Absolutely not.

The tools are provided to facilitate convenience for party members.

I'll speak mostly from a WoW perspective, but here are my thoughts, and they could apply to most MMOs.

LFG tools are not the reason for ninja-looting, because ninja-looting was always there.  The mechanics of a roll-system, for loot, have been improved slightly in newer MMOs, to prevent this.  Ultimately though, no loot system will prevent players from rolling Need, unless the roll-system is coded to prevent certain classes from rolling Need, which WoW (and other MMOs?) has done already.  That's enough about the loot systems though.

There will always be rude players, due to the fact of anonyminity in a game.  The fact is, players did not care about their reputation pre-LFG Tool.  That is a myth with no factual backup.  There were always raiding guilds that didn't care about recruiting these players either.  The improvement of vote-systems has greatly improved in MMOs also, so any player that is acting inappropriately is voted to be kicked.  It also has it's drawbacks and is abused too.

The claim that it kills world exploration, questing, world pvp, etc.. is unfounded.  There is never a reason to explore in past themepark MMOs, unless you count exploration achievements.  Questing in past MMOs never created a community either.  It only made chat channels more active.  The decline of group quests in MMOs, demanded by casuals, made this even more true.  As for world pvp, a LFG tool would have no impact on this, since pvp'ers would be looking for players in all areas, whether it's in guilds, capital cities, or throughout multiple zones.

Lastly, to suggest that a LFG Tool keeps players in capital cities, or main hubs, is not true either.  There was literally no reason to be outside those cities and hubs in the first place.  Chat channels in those cities and hubs were the main tools used to recruit for dungeon runs.  So, instead of sifting through chat channels, waiting on members, and traveling to destinations... a tool was created for convenience, not to hamper any social "community" which was non-existent anyway.  It was all an illusion to the opponents of a LFG tool.

  observer

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/05
Posts: 2452

First came pride, then envy.

3/17/13 5:31:30 AM#173
Originally posted by SuperXero89

What really ruined MMORPG communities was the introduction of solo quest progression.  Now, I might argue that solo quest grinding certainly made MMORPGs more playable for the average person, but after that method of progression became popular, players had little reason to make friends with one another at least until endgame.

The argument is often that the cross-server LFGs hurt players' ability to make friends,  but when probably less than 25% of the playerbase actually participates in group-based content, introducing a LFG helps more people than it hurts.  After Blizzard implemented cross-server LFG in WoW, I was able to experience virtually every single dungeon in the game multiple times.  I don't know if I could've said the same for an older, solo-focused MMO without a LFG system.

Exactly this.  The destruction of  group content, in the open-world,  ruined the socialization of adventurers and levelers.  This is where people met and helped each other out.  Now, it's not even required.  In most MMOs, you can solo all the way to max level.

Edit: I'll have to give Swtor credit here.   Their Heroic Group quests actually brought back grouping in the open-world.  On the opposite spectrum was GW2 though, where grouping is cohesive and everyone can jump in, but it didn't require communication or preparation.  There needs to be a balance.

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

3/17/13 5:35:18 AM#174
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by GreenHell

On what game?

Does it matter? Are we going to play the "one game has a horrible community and the other doesn't" card? Does it really matter? The act is the same no matter what game it was. If you do this crap in WoW or in Eve it is the same. It's not about the game it is about the lack of respect that you obviously have no problem with.

It matters since I assume it's an LFD game, which is exactly why you are having issues. LFD raids often have anonymous PUG raids and people tend to go AFK and you get the dramaqueens and arguments you talk about.

It has happened to me in every game before and after a LFG tool was created. Once again I believe your logic to be flawed. Some how in your mind if you know those 60 other people its just fine to make them wait for you. No!!! No its not. I played SWG pre-cu and the crap happened then. It has always happened because people like you feel its ok to be a inconvenience to other people and you try to justify it to yourself by saying " oh they understand..they are my friends"

You look at me as the problem with MMOs. I find that amusing. It is people like you that are the real problem and have been since the begining of the genre. You don't act in a MMORPG as you would in the real world. You abuse the people around you because you can. You have a total lack of respect for this community ideal that you seem to hold in such high regard. All I do is ignore people. People like you take advantage of them. LOL...and I'm the problem.

  simmihi

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/10
Posts: 537

3/17/13 5:36:45 AM#175
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by GreenHell

Let me ask you this. How is it fair if you are in a 25 man group to make 24 other people wait for you for 10 mins? How is that being respectful at all? I would never do that. I would leave the raid.

That doesn't happen even in games without LFD. In fact games without LFD like Everquest have 60 man raids and never did someone being AFK cause an issue.

I would love to see those new MMO players lead 60+ man raids when they can only play for 30 minutes and throw a fit if something doesn't go their way.

I'm really interested how long it takes today to set up a 60man raid in EQ. I'm asking because last year, while I was still playing WoW, my guild ran 25man raids as we always did (old guild, since Vanilla, same people, good friends, had some real life meetings - is that "social" enough to your standards?). All those 25 man raids were delayed, because of people caught in traffic, because of people having trouble with their kids, because of late unexpected meetings that they needed to attend to. They are not lazy people and not lying, I know most of them personally and they just have real life issues which come with age. Each raid gets delayed 45min-1h. Does that mean that we have to disband the guild just because 3-4 of us (each time different people) have trouble to be there sometimes? Automatically "we're not fit to play MMO's" anymore? No, the devs offered us the LFR alternative and smaller, 10 man raids. I am grateful for that, my guild would have disbanded without those things. The lack of LFD and LFR would actually have had Destroyed our great community we created for us, in our guild. I'm not playing anymore, but I know that this summer, when I'll probably have some time for 1-2 months again, I'll be able to re-sub and find there some of the same great people. Between other things, I know I have to thank the devs for giving us the LFD and LFR.

 

While EQ1 was "hot", there were no real alternatives. It was 60man raids or no game, no raids. Then WoW, down to 40 man. Then down to 25. Then down to 10. Then to open world zergs. It is pretty clear what people have chosen and where this is going. There's a reason why devs adapt content to lower and lower numbers, down to 4 ppl instance groups in SWTOR or 10man raids in other games. But hey, EQ1 is still there, if you want 1990's graphics, elitism and almost zero chances to find groups for leveling. I doubt the 60man raids are still popular there though.

  CalmOceans

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 2048

3/17/13 5:40:09 AM#176
Originally posted by GreenHell

It has happened to me in every game before and after a LFG tool was created. Once again I believe your logic to be flawed. Some how in your mind if you know those 60 other people its just fine to make them wait for you. No!!! No its not. I played SWG pre-cu and the crap happened then. It has always happened because people like you feel its ok to be a inconvenience to other people and you try to justify it to yourself by saying " oh they understand..they are my friends"

You look at me as the problem with MMOs. I find that amusing. It is people like you that are the real problem and have been since the begining of the genre. You don't act in a MMORPG as you would in the real world. You abuse the people around you because you can. You have a total lack of respect for this community ideal that you seem to hold in such high regard. All I do is ignore people. People like you take advantage of them. LOL...and I'm the problem.

I never said making 60 people wait for you is fine, you seem to be putting words in my mouth.

I said it doesn't seem to cause issues in games like Everquest and games like FFXI but in games like WoW and other LFD games you seem to run into issues needing to kick people even if you raid is only 25 people.

I have done raids with 100+ people, not PUG raids, organised raids, and not once did we have to kick someone.

If I play those new action MMO, people are kicked left, right and center before the group is even started, that issue doesn't even exist in other games. It's a typical LFD / LFD issue, groups become meaningless, community is meaningless, you have high redundancy which allows kicks and cross server groups, and you run into issues and you get frustrated and issues which you detailed ensue.

  observer

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/05
Posts: 2452

First came pride, then envy.

3/17/13 5:41:12 AM#177
Originally posted by CalmOceans

No one ruins the community but themselves

Case Closed.

 

That's a terrible cop-out and you know it, or you never experienced what old MMO were like.

I tried Guild Wars after playing Everquest and the difference was night and day.

I could walk up to a person in pre-luclin Everquest and before I could reach my keys I would have a person throwing buffs on me and saying hi.

In Guild wars it felt like I was thrown into a world where people lost their ability to communicate, no one said anything. I couldn't believe it and thought it was some fluke. But I saw this pattern in more MMO, I saw it in WoW, I saw it in Vindictus, I saw it in FFXIV, I saw it everywhere.

The exception to this rule was Vanguard, people didn't communicate nearly as much as in EQ, but they communicate much more than in games like guild wars.

Communication stands and falls from game design.

 

 

Here is an example of Everquest. People sitting next to each other, talking to each other, trading things, making groups.

Does this happen in new MMO? No Sir, it does not. In new MMO you join the factory chain called the LFD dungeon seeker and complete your meaningless dungeon, and you keep using that tool because it's far easier to just be a little robot than to actually make friends, because if you had any friends you wouldn't join the LFD. Socialising be damned.

Ah, but then again, dungeons in EQ were designed differently.  People had to camp out and wait for spawns.  This is why they had time to talk about things and socialize.  So, in essence, it wasn't the tool, but the design of the dungeon.

Post-EQ dungeon design is vastly different.  It's much more rapid without downtime.

  CalmOceans

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 2048

3/17/13 5:45:24 AM#178
Originally posted by simmihi

I'm really interested how long it takes today to set up a 60man raid in EQ.

5 minutes or so. Raids are capped at 54 man right now, but every raid is filled to 54, you don't go in with lower.

We never have issues with AFK, people who need to AFK simply don't join the raid.

  simmihi

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/10
Posts: 537

3/17/13 5:47:13 AM#179
Originally posted by observer

Ah, but then again, dungeons in EQ were designed differently.  People had to camp out and wait for spawns.  This is why they had time to talk about things and socialize.  So, in essence, it wasn't the tool, but the design of the dungeon.

Post-EQ dungeon design is vastly different.  It's much more rapid without downtime.

Exactly. It's the game and its systems, content, approach to things. I could post a GW2 outside dragon camping screenshot and it'll look the same, a whole bunch of people camping. It has Nothing to do with the LFD/LFR tool. The difference is, in EQ everything was the same, camp, camp, wait for spawns. Some of the new games just alternate instanced, fast content with camping, outdoors content.

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

3/17/13 5:47:31 AM#180
Originally posted by CalmOceans

I never said making 60 people wait for you is fine, you seem to be putting words in my mouth.

I said it doesn't seem to cause issues in games like Everquest and games like FFXI but in games like WoW and other LFD games you seem to run into issues needing to kick people even if you raid is only 25 people.

I have done raids with 100+ people, not PUG raids, organised raids, and not once did we have to kick someone.

If I play those new action MMO, people are kicked left, right and center before the group is even started, that issue doesn't even exist in other games. It's a typical LFD / LFD issue, groups become meaningless, community is meaningless, you have high redundancy which allows kicks and cross server groups, and you run into issues and you get frustrated and issues which you detailed ensue.

Issues as in no one complained when it happened or issues as in it never happened?

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