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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do LFG System really ruin the community?

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385 posts found
  ClaudeSuamOram

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 134

3/19/13 5:25:25 AM#341
Originally posted by GreenHell
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 Um.. Questing, dungeons, bgs, mob grinding, pvp, gathering/exploring is 6 different ways of leveling.  Not one.  Each one of those can and people have gotten to max level on.

No matter how correct you are a lot of these people will never admit it. To admit that WoW does anything better than the dinosaurs of the past is blasphemy. They are so close minded and blinded by their desire for a new old school game they will say anything to try and defend their position.

I would love to hear someone pitch a line for an old school game to an investor. Why would anyone invest in a game style that has a track record of mediocrity and failure? How do you even try to justify it? WoW can release a new stupid $10 pet in their store and make more money off of that pet than the old school game would make in a year of subs. That pet would have almost no overhead to cover. Would making a WoW clone be definite money maker? No. It would however be a much safer bet than an old school chat room game.

The logic in all of this isn't very hard to see. Games are made to make money. You have a far better chance of making that money by making a game that appeals to the masses. Old school MMO's do NOT appeal to the masses. It doesn't matter how hard you try to flame and insult WoW players. They speak with their wallets as they have been doing for over 8 years now.  If you can not deal with the fact that this industry has moved on far past it's humble beginings you are blind. Things are not going to change back to the way they were. That era of gaming is over.

Way to assume as ususal. As if you or many of the usual suspects here have ANY room to call people close minded. Hello pot, I'm kettle.

There are many things WoW, and other newer MMORPG's do better. I've said this before. Although most are just improvements on elements from those old school MMORPG's. But there are also many things they botched from those old school MMORPG's that were key elements of them and what made them stand out as a seperate and unique genre.

I'd love for you to epxlain to me how old school has a track record of mediocrity and failure when most of those games are STILL running servers, STILL putting out expansions, and STILL making money 14 years later.

Games have always been about making money....no kidding /facepalm. But not until the mass marketing of Blizzard and main streaming of MMORPG's has it been the ONLY focus, and all creativity and passion to make a truly great MMORPG that doesn't just continuously sucker the consumer out of money and/or disappoint with constant broken promises, unfinished, buggy expansion releases....but it works. Because people like you will jump at the next release without a second thought and buy into the garbage trail while these developer's laugh all the way to the bank. Betting it's why cash shops are so big and F2P.

They know their games don't have enough content to justify monthly subs...so F2P makes the consumer feel they are getting the game cheap (And some are)...but in reality...many are paying much more than the monthly sub would run them...and those that vowed to play free will usually fork over some cash to stay on par with the rest of the community (Since most of those games are built to gimp F2P users). Or they just cram the cash shop with fluff items because they know this is the day and age of entitlement and image...and people will jump at "Hey! Look at me!" items.

I NEVER personally said I'd like to see an old school style EXACTLY like the old. There are many elements that have been changed for the better. Simply that it would be nice to see one with a world that feels alive, crafting that has value, the social aspects of the old games where people actually communicate, have the option to make friends, reputation (Accountability)  means something (Which in turn tends t make players act more accordingly), questing with deep story and meaning beyond "Kill 10 rats"), etc.

With all the cross server, lfg/lfd stuff, fast paced to cap ina month, ability (In some games) to buy a name change or server change on a whim, super solo friendly features in today's MMORPG's...most people never group, never talk, or act like complete tools because they can and get away with it due to the above.

 

P.S. There are several coming down the pipe near the end of this year and next year of an old school nature. Sadly though...I am sure many will try it and whine to change it like all the others are now. GOD forbid if old school players get one game they'd like to see...it may take away another option to game hop to once content is exhausted after a month or two for those selfish masses.

  GroovyFlower

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252

Skyrim

3/19/13 5:30:31 AM#342

Sinds GW2 became dungeon run treadmill/grind game yes, GW2 was not suppose to be like this but it became like WoW:(

 

  BlueTiger33

Novice Member

Joined: 2/25/13
Posts: 169

3/19/13 5:35:26 AM#343

Frankly, I'm not worried about the community beyond the instance/dungeon/etc.

That being said I use LFG/LFR exclusively in WoW and also in GW2.


I will never support freeloaders, no more subsidized gaming.
My Blog

  Sagasaint

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/25/11
Posts: 474

I don't always play MMOs, but when I do, I play sandboxes

3/19/13 9:32:17 AM#344

LFG systems dont ruin communities

people ruin communities

 

 

  vadess40

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 38

3/19/13 9:32:40 AM#345

Do LFG systems ruin community.... I concur with many of the arguments for an against it. I can't say I've run into them all. I've more run into the other problem LFG systems have. I've found that LFG in SWTOR attracts the trolls and griefers more than anything else, and really has deterred me from using it save with fellow guild members, as quing for a random HM for a raid wins the best commendations one can get in the game. They're the ones that always step outside of their role (ie dps or healers pulling before the tank), act like assderps to everyone, are always rude, or always put on the elitist attitude. Those are things that I think kill the potential for community with or without groupfinder in MMOs more so than whether or not a tool is accessible or not, as repeatedly running into them will either cause people retreat to their guilds to do group content or they abandon doing group stuff in order to form a community with others altogether. Sometimes I think the saying that says don't feed the trolls should have an addition: don't let the trolls feed you

I think the key to fixing it is just as dependant on the players as it is on the mechanics of a game, you know? Like I have to want community in order to go out and find community. I want to have community in SWTOR, so I found by RP-ing and by finding a great guild. If people don't want that then it won't be found cause they won't be looking for it. At the same time if a game has so much that can be done solo, than the setting of questing and levelling will affect how people go about achieving their goals.

And I concur, it would be nice to be greeted by others while I quested. It would certainly breathe some life back into SWTOR. 

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

3/19/13 10:26:41 AM#346
Originally posted by Muke

it ruins the community for the people that want a mmo online 'world'.
it just changes everything in a instance lobby, queue up, enter, leave and repeat.

Given LFD is so popular, i gather most people don't want an online "world".

Queue up, enter, leave and repeat sounds more fun than chat for 30 min, may or may not enter, and leave for dinner.

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

3/19/13 10:27:42 AM#347
Originally posted by GroovyFlower

Sinds GW2 became dungeon run treadmill/grind game yes, GW2 was not suppose to be like this but it became like WoW:(

 

"not suppose to be like this" .. decided by whom?

GW2 is an entertainment product ... it is supposed to be entertained and used by customers as they see fit. Anything else is just hot air.

  Holice

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/08
Posts: 118

3/19/13 10:57:17 AM#348
Originally posted by zekeofev
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by zekeofev

I do however agree that my story is absolutely not the same for the average soloer. For them LFD is a huge tool, can't dispute that. What I can say though is that I will NEVER have the same experience I had again in games with a LFD tool. And that saddens me.

It is a matter of perspective.

But you are right, it is a different experience. LFD is a much better gaming experience. For me, and probably for the many who like to use the tool.

Why are you sad when others are happy with a new feature?


LFD is incredibly convient. But I meet much less people while running around. The groups I do find are much less socialable and games are becoming less and less about meeting people inside the game. In fact the trend is to have a multi gaming guild and hop from game to game nowdays rather than form up from roots from within the game.

 

 

I completely agree with your first point. It definitely seems like many people meet their guildies pre-launch nowadays. That's not necessarily a bad thing thou, as it helps to maintain relaitionships when you leave the game or the game dies.

 

And on your other point, regarding never speaking to pugs again, there have been plenty of players who I have "friended" after a pug dungeon. Especially if they are a tank or healer, and perform exceptionally.

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

3/19/13 11:04:31 AM#349
Originally posted by Holice
LFD is incredibly convient. But I meet much less people while running around. The groups I do find are much less socialable and games are becoming less and less about meeting people inside the game. In fact the trend is to have a multi gaming guild and hop from game to game nowdays rather than form up from roots from within the game.

 

Yeah. Who cares about and in-game community when you can bring your own? And people like variety. I don't play only one game. Do you? It is only natural to bring your community to your games.

It is easier to switch game than community.

  GreenHell

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/05
Posts: 1342

3/19/13 11:23:37 AM#350
Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

Way to assume as ususal. As if you or many of the usual suspects here have ANY room to call people close minded. Hello pot, I'm kettle.

You call me close minded but never explain why this is. Am I close minded because I am grounded in reality? Am I close minded because I do not let nostalgia cloud my common sense? Is it because I threw away my rose tinted glasses years ago? How come the entire industry can see what you can not?

There are many things WoW, and other newer MMORPG's do better. I've said this before. Although most are just improvements on elements from those old school MMORPG's. But there are also many things they botched from those old school MMORPG's that were key elements of them and what made them stand out as a seperate and unique genre.

That is evolution. The original idea keeps gettting improved upon. I never said WoW or any of these new games did anything all that ground breaking. They just made it better. How often do you see evolution go backwards? The industry has come this far and it is not going back to what it was in terms of game design. You either need to roll with the changes or walk away.

I'd love for you to epxlain to me how old school has a track record of mediocrity and failure when most of those games are STILL running servers, STILL putting out expansions, and STILL making money 14 years later.

As I explained before how can you not make money with a game that is 11 years old? How? What is your overhead? Even SWG was still turning a profit. Probably a pretty good one considering it was on life support for years. It not hard to make money when you are not spending money and people are still paying you.

Games have always been about making money....no kidding /facepalm. But not until the mass marketing of Blizzard and main streaming of MMORPG's has it been the ONLY focus, and all creativity and passion to make a truly great MMORPG that doesn't just continuously sucker the consumer out of money and/or disappoint with constant broken promises, unfinished, buggy expansion releases....but it works. Because people like you will jump at the next release without a second thought and buy into the garbage trail while these developer's laugh all the way to the bank. Betting it's why cash shops are so big and F2P.

You say that you know games are about making money and yet you still can't see how flawed your logic is. That fact that you blame Blizzard for anything is funny. This industry as a whole was always about making money. Investors do not care about your desire to sit by a fake campfire in a fake world and talk about the fake night sky. They care about money. Games are funded by investors. There are not enough people who want to play that style of game. If there were investors would be shelling out cash to get one made.

The people like me line is great also. I have not bought a new MMO since WoW. Your bitterness shines through with every word you type. Your ignorance as well.

They know their games don't have enough content to justify monthly subs...so F2P makes the consumer feel they are getting the game cheap (And some are)...but in reality...many are paying much more than the monthly sub would run them...and those that vowed to play free will usually fork over some cash to stay on par with the rest of the community (Since most of those games are built to gimp F2P users). Or they just cram the cash shop with fluff items because they know this is the day and age of entitlement and image...and people will jump at "Hey! Look at me!" items.

This is common knowledge. Everyone knows that there is no such thing as Free to Play. I'm really not a fan of F2P and would never play a game that did not at least offer a sub option. Most of them do however so its not a big deal. You just don't pay the intial box fee. If people want that payment model and it is profitable who the hell am I to say they shouldn't have it? If that is the evolution of this genre then so be it. If it gets to a point where everything is F2P and I don't like it I will walk away. Like some people should have done awhile ago.

I NEVER personally said I'd like to see an old school style EXACTLY like the old. There are many elements that have been changed for the better. Simply that it would be nice to see one with a world that feels alive, crafting that has value, the social aspects of the old games where people actually communicate, have the option to make friends, reputation (Accountability)  means something (Which in turn tends t make players act more accordingly), questing with deep story and meaning beyond "Kill 10 rats"), etc.

With all the cross server, lfg/lfd stuff, fast paced to cap ina month, ability (In some games) to buy a name change or server change on a whim, super solo friendly features in today's MMORPG's...most people never group, never talk, or act like complete tools because they can and get away with it due to the above.

You see the problem is your type of game FORCES people to be social. Wouldn't a person that is truly seeking to be social find other like minded people and play a game (no matter what game it is ) the way they want? The difference between "old school" gamers and the gamers that accept the genre for what it is today is that we are not trying to force you to do anything. No one forces you to use a LFG tool. No one forces you to play the game the way they want. That is the part you and others like you can not seem to grasp.

This isn't about a LFG tool. It's all about having options and you don't really like those. You want to be forced in to a play style. You need the ridged structure in order for you to be happy. You need everyone behaving in a predictable and what you would deem acceptable way. You want the players to police the other players. That is such a bad idea. People did and would again abuse the system to gain their imaginary power. In your games the line between the haves and the have nots is so huge that you end up alienating players and they leave.

Games like WoW offer more options for different play styles. Look I said it. There it is, the most unholy of games offering more choices. The themepark ride that offers more variety. Its true though and thats the part you all hate. You can't grab the power like you did in those old games. You can't dictate how people will play. No one knows you and no one cares about you. I really believe a lot of you hate that. The fact that a person that only has 2 hours a night to play can actually achieve something. They can see all of the content that they pay for. They don't have to sit for hours on end looking for a group, or waiting for a mob to spawn. Thye don't have to kiss the asses of the popular so they can get in to a group. You and players like you have lost all of that power you had in the older games. You don't like being a nobody. You miss that power of dictating how people should act, what they should do and who have they have to know in order to see content. That great generation of gamers was far from great. It was more of a popularity contest than a game and thats all over now.

P.S. There are several coming down the pipe near the end of this year and next year of an old school nature. Sadly though...I am sure many will try it and whine to change it like all the others are now. GOD forbid if old school players get one game they'd like to see...it may take away another option to game hop to once content is exhausted after a month or two for those selfish masses.

I'll be shocked if any of them make it to the end of that pipe with the vision you have for them. It won't be the modern MMO player that will change your game. It will be the developers looking for more money and you the "old school" player. Odds are the game will be under funded, realeased way to early, missing content, buggy, and there will be a string of broken promises. Just like all of the other ones. Your players will not wait for it to be finished and they will leave forcing the developers to change the game to make it appeal to the masses so it doesnt shut down.

The bottom line here is always the same. There are not enough people who want that style of game for it to be properly funded and developed by a large studio. The evidence is right in front of your face.

Lets say for a second though that there are enough players to develop and run a profitable "old school" MMO. How do you prove that to an investor? Show them numbers from 11 year old games that are sad in comparison with todays market? Try to ignore the fact that WoW still dominates after 8 years? You see even if you have the players you are caught in a vicious circle. You can not prove to an investor that an old school MMO would work because no one in the last 8 years had made a succesful one. No one has even tried to make a succesful old school MMO in the past 8 years because there is no proof to show investors that it would work. Can't prove anything because one hasnt been made. One hasn't been made because there is no proof it would be worth the risk. Round and round you go and your game does not get developed.

It's funny how people still act like WoW is the new kid on the block. 8 years later and people still debate things Blizzard does with this game. Who was talking about Everquest when it was 8 years old? Who cared? The only thing people were talking about with SWG when it was 8 was that it was shutting down. This is why the industry will continue to move in this direction and will not be going back.

  Tranceryp

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/13
Posts: 7

3/19/13 1:00:11 PM#351

GreenHell just speaks the truth. It is sad and hard to digest for people who were used to the EQ / FFXI hardcore days. But think of it this way...we are all grown up with jobs and demanding responsibilities in our lives. Do we really have time for the old-fashioned camp/grind fest? They were fun when I was young and had no responsibilites but now that I'm 27 I could never handle a camp/grind game like FFXI. What I wish were still in games of today is the fluff that was in the other games that made them fun and engaging with other players. Music instraments to play along with friends, cooking and sitting in front of a campfire while just chilling in town. I definitely wish many aspects of MMO's today were more social. However, if you want that aspect, you can find it. It is not like it does not exist. Sure it takes a little more effort...but if it is important to you, you will find it! RP servers in games of today is a great place to start. They are all about just sitting in the bars / inns / taverns and just shooting the shit. If role playing is your thing. ;)

The industry has been in a different place for a long time. Don't hate on GreenHell just because he makes very valid points and is not afraid to tell it like it is...

Take FFXIV for example. They are remaking that game from the ground up. What do you want to bet that it will have a ton more WoW elements in it rather than old and outdated FFXI elements in it?

They will still keep it a Final Fantasy game but what they will take from WoW will be what people want. The simple interface, the questing structure, dungeons, raids, etc.

Who knows, maybe in the future we will get a game that everyone can enjoy (hardcores and casuals alike). Until then, I do hope that EQNext or any of the others that may have some "old school" elements is exactly what you guys want.

However, it would be healthy to have realistic expectations.

Just my two cents.

  Tranceryp

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/13
Posts: 7

3/19/13 1:11:53 PM#352

As I did get a little off-topic, I will say my opinion on initial OP question:

Does LFD / LFG ruin the communities of MMORPGS?

I truly believe cross-server LFD does. I believe that when it is cross-server it is chaos and anarchy and people have no accountability for their actions. I also believe that with a cross-server LFD system the DPS classes are usually screwed over because the Healers and Tanks can just get instant-queued into a dungeon as soon as they put their LFG flag up. They can then come into the dungeon, demand speed run or threaten to leave group (forcing everyone wait a long time for another again), they can ninja-loot items because they don't care, or they can do all sorts of other things that annoyed me when I joined a Cross-Server queue.

IF however, the LFD stays on the server, I do not think there is anything wrong with that. What is wrong with getting a group on the same server for something you are trying to accomplish faster? It is not like people won't talk to each other. If the content is challenging and takes teamwork/collaboration, communication is inevitible.

The problem with WoW and most of the content being pumped out in dungeons before max level is they are just easy-mode cake walks. There is no need to waste time talking to another player because they can just be zerged all the way through. However, I believe this is counter-productive because if content is challenging at max level than all the developers managed to do was gimp these players because they never learned how to handle hard content as they were leveling. It always should be a progressive difficulity curve and not just zerg zerg zerg zerg zerg zerg zerg, oh shit a challenge? wipe.

In short, LFD cross-server - detrimental to the mmo community

LFD same server - i'm fine with and actually prefer these days.

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

3/19/13 1:20:18 PM#353
Originally posted by Tranceryp

I truly believe cross-server LFD does. I believe that when it is cross-server it is chaos and anarchy and people have no accountability for their actions. I also believe that with a cross-server LFD system the DPS classes are usually screwed over because the Healers and Tanks can just get instant-queued into a dungeon as soon as they put their LFG flag up. They can then come into the dungeon, demand speed run or threaten to leave group (forcing everyone wait a long time for another again), they can ninja-loot items because they don't care, or they can do all sorts of other things that annoyed me when I joined a Cross-Server queue.

I want to comment on the point about being demanding, and ninja-loot.

The issue of tank/healer can be more demanding is because of the holy trinity and the lop-sided distribution of players who want to play tank/healer. So it is a LFD specific problem.

In fact, such a problem is lessen in LFR where the group size is bigger. At the same time, you can always quit and requeue. And also note that you will be the one who has the power, if you play a tank or healer. It is a two-edge sword.

Ninja-ing is only a problem because devs let it. In LFR, wow does away with ninja-ing by rolling individual loot (i.e. ninjaing is impossible, you don't roll on teh same item). That is, the same rule used in MP ARPG like D3 .. you will never ninja a legendary from another person because only he can see and pick up "his" legendaries.

 

  Tranceryp

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/13
Posts: 7

3/19/13 1:28:39 PM#354

Right, but I think the argument is that if there is community like there used to be in the old games, that people wouldn't ninja-loot because of respect for your fellow players and how you all overcame the challenges together.

There's no denying that as successful as WoW was/is, they bred a whole need breed of mmo self-entitled player that you just never really came across in the "old days".

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

3/19/13 1:32:29 PM#355
Originally posted by Tranceryp

Right, but I think the argument is that if there is community like there used to be in the old games, that people wouldn't ninja-loot because of respect for your fellow players and how you all overcame the challenges together.

There's no denying that as successful as WoW was/is, they bred a whole need breed of mmo self-entitled player that you just never really came across in the "old days".

First, i was there in the old days and loot drama was alive and well then. Also arguing about who is where in the queue for boss camp. So it is not all honey and roses. Don't tell me kill-stealing is not rampant in EQ. Sure, you may not want to ninja-loot your friend, but if you group ninja-kill the other group ... not a bad thing.

Secondly, why even let people do it? Just make it impossible in the game mechancis. Problem solved.

I would prefer a modern MMO that i don't have to rely on someone's good will.

  Tranceryp

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/13
Posts: 7

3/19/13 2:18:00 PM#356

Ok granted. But can we both agree that WoW definitiely brought a ton more trolls to the MMO genre with it?

And this is coming from someone who loved WoW back in the Vanilla / BC days.

  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

3/19/13 3:03:13 PM#357
Originally posted by Tranceryp

Ok granted. But can we both agree that WoW definitiely brought a ton more trolls to the MMO genre with it?

And this is coming from someone who loved WoW back in the Vanilla / BC days.

Oh i didn't disgree that people, on average, are not nicer back then.

But the point is that you don't have to rely on others being nice to have fun. That is, community is just not that important. Otherwise, people would have left WOW in droves long long time ago.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2854

World > Quest Progression

3/19/13 3:41:08 PM#358
Thank goodness there are titles coming out that emphasize, hopefully, a better community. I get that the majority of players may be selfish and self absorbed with thier own avatars and that the genre created them. Luckily they will have x amount of titles to play and pollute :)
  nariusseldon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 22588

3/19/13 3:46:35 PM#359
Originally posted by Aelious
Thank goodness there are titles coming out that emphasize, hopefully, a better community. I get that the majority of players may be selfish and self absorbed with thier own avatars and that the genre created them. Luckily they will have x amount of titles to play and pollute :)

I doubt it. You can't really change human nature. But of course it is your perogative to believe there will be games with "nicer community".

Luckily there are games where its fun do not depend on it.

And yes, most likely you won't see me in your games .. that should be of small comfort to you.

  Tranceryp

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/13
Posts: 7

3/19/13 3:54:47 PM#360

Oh comeon Nar, I'm sure you're not that bad. ;)

In any event, I believe the IP Final Fantasy has some of the nicest community of players that come with it. I am hopeful that most trolls won't try FFXIV and that I'll be able to enjoy the friendly community I'm sure to meet on there.

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