Originally posted by KaosProphet

 The real problem is, most modern gamers don't see a reason to bother going back for it.  And even most of the "community centric" oldschoolers bred from the EQ model don't either - if they hadn't already walked away from GW2 beforehand for daring to try to break away from the holy trinity.

Why is that a problem? Just pug the content with a LFD type tool (or play a game allowing you to do so). In WOW, running lowbie dungeons for leveling is popular because of LFD.

True, you cannot get your higher level friend to play that way. But if they don't want to play a low level dungeon with you, there is really nothing you can do, LFD or not.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Madamefate

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Does it ruin the community in solo centric games with little to no community anyway, like WoW? No,

 

In games with public dungeons, where socializing is a huge part of it, oh hell yes.

That is a very good statement rings true. But I think communities control how things ruin things not the game itself.

Communities are formed and shaped by the mechanics the game. The reason older games were more social is because you had to be social to get by, you needed other people.

I've been playing MMO's since 1999 and I started with Asheron's Call and I can assure you LFG tools have zero bearing on a community.  If AC had a LFG tool I would never quit.  The reason why I always end up leaving is because its damned hard trying to find a group for a particular dungeon or quest.

The reason why older games were more social(besides AC) was because the systems in place were boring, grindy, menial and choreful which meant socializing was the best aspect of the game.  There was a reason why games like EQ, AC and UO only had a fraction of the  playerbase as a modern MMO, because the games themselves were built on dated concepts and boring old school systems which promoted sticking around over fun.

Originally posted by Kothoses

Those grand old communities of yesteryear did not spring up because of game design, they formed to fill a gap in the game design.  The fact that in EQ or FF for example you had to wait around and work hard to get a group, the fact that getting anything done took massive amounts of time, that coupled with the fact MMO's were not mainstream is what made those "Communities".

 

I hate to break it to you, but folk who like my self remember the "good old days" gloss over the details a lot with rose coloured lenses, the reason you had those "ties" was because of the vast amount of time you spent in a city or at a zone entrance just waiting for a group to call your number.  The fact is you had less game to play back then, barebones systems that catered to a very hardcore niche have been replaced with alacarte on demand content.  Fact is todays gamers are not content to spend 3 hours looking for a WHM to heal their group, they will just log out and go play another game.

 

Is there demand for that old school game, sure there probably is, but I can promise one thing, if some one made that kind of game, it would not do well it would have to settle for being a niche game with slow developement cycles and time sink grind based content to succeed.  

 

Yes I miss the communities of old, even wow had those back in Vanilla, but as the game got bigger the masses got more faceless, the audience for mmos is huge now compared to what it was, and a whole new generation of gamers have grown up since we stood in Bastok or Freeport looking for a group.

Welcome to the future... maybe there is a place for people who want that old school experience, but right now it isnt in the current generation of big budget content led MMO's.

 

Which is much the same reason as to why no one has developed a proper successor to the Bioware Neverwinter Nights.....and why the nearest we will get is Cryptics vision, its why SWG died on its feet (sorry but it did) its also why Eve is doing good, although amusingly 500k for eve is considered doing exceptionally well, but apply those numbers to any of the more modern big budget theme parks and people consider it "fail".

 

On this site there is a demand for old school sandbox gaming, but thats because of the populace of these forums, in general the demand is not anywhere near as significant.  Which in turn means its not as profitable, which makes large developers living under the capitalist mantra of "Growth or die" averse to trying it.... now you can pick apart why "growth or die" is a narrow minded and ultimately self defeating aspiration all you want, but the fact is analysts tell us it is the case and business believes them ;)

 

I got more than a little off topic there, but that is a wider view of why the communities of yesteryear are never coming back, however most will just scream "Generation entitled" or "CoD baby" or "wow kiddie" and then tell us how they were much nicer back in the day ;)

Kothoses, this was so well said man. I had to sign up and join this discussion just because it is very well-discussed and sadly, you my friend hit the nail on the head. Well said - a very bittersweet reality to accept.

Originally posted by azzamasin

The reason why older games were more social(besides AC) was because the systems in place were boring, grindy, menial and choreful which meant socializing was the best aspect of the game.  There was a reason why games like EQ, AC and UO only had a fraction of the  playerbase as a modern MMO, because the games themselves were built on dated concepts and boring old school systems which promoted sticking around over fun.

Well said.

I quit EQ after a year precisely because it is not a fun game. And i realized that if all i want is to chat for 50 min, then play 10 min, i am better off using a chat program while i play some solo-games.

I am glad those days are over.

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Madamefate

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Does it ruin the community in solo centric games with little to no community anyway, like WoW? No,

 

In games with public dungeons, where socializing is a huge part of it, oh hell yes.

That is a very good statement rings true. But I think communities control how things ruin things not the game itself.

Communities are formed and shaped by the mechanics the game. The reason older games were more social is because you had to be social to get by, you needed other people.

I've been playing MMO's since 1999 and I started with Asheron's Call and I can assure you LFG tools have zero bearing on a community.  If AC had a LFG tool I would never quit.  The reason why I always end up leaving is because its damned hard trying to find a group for a particular dungeon or quest.

 

The reason why older games were more social(besides AC) was because the systems in place were boring, grindy, menial and choreful which meant socializing was the best aspect of the game.  There was a reason why games like EQ, AC and UO only had a fraction of the  playerbase as a modern MMO, because the games themselves were built on dated concepts and boring old school systems which promoted sticking around over fun.

This is just azznine and not true. Did you play EQ? UO?

If you actually look at the numbers for subs between now and then...UO...and more so EQ were massively successful for the time...as people knowing of and playing MMORPG's then were MUCH MUCH smaller numbers then now in the post-WoW time frame.

There was a lot more to do in UO and EQ than they offer in today's MMORPG's ias far as options. I highly doubt EQ would still be going and putting out expansions 14 years later if it were so terrible. Even new people are going to try it and enjoying it.

There were a lot less toolbags then (Although they still existed) and you're reputation meant something....so players were more prone to be courteous, helpful, and sociable. With today's cross server crap, ability to switch your name or server for a price, etc....people are less friendly and more apt to act like fools because they aren't held accountable....and less social because you rarely have need to get someone elses help unless doing "End game".

Originally posted by ClaudeSuamOram

Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Madamefate

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Does it ruin the community in solo centric games with little to no community anyway, like WoW? No,

 

In games with public dungeons, where socializing is a huge part of it, oh hell yes.

That is a very good statement rings true. But I think communities control how things ruin things not the game itself.

Communities are formed and shaped by the mechanics the game. The reason older games were more social is because you had to be social to get by, you needed other people.

I've been playing MMO's since 1999 and I started with Asheron's Call and I can assure you LFG tools have zero bearing on a community.  If AC had a LFG tool I would never quit.  The reason why I always end up leaving is because its damned hard trying to find a group for a particular dungeon or quest.

 

The reason why older games were more social(besides AC) was because the systems in place were boring, grindy, menial and choreful which meant socializing was the best aspect of the game.  There was a reason why games like EQ, AC and UO only had a fraction of the  playerbase as a modern MMO, because the games themselves were built on dated concepts and boring old school systems which promoted sticking around over fun.

This is just azznine and not true. Did you play EQ? UO?

If you actually look at the numbers for subs between now and then...UO...and more so EQ were massively successful for the time...as people knowing of and playing MMORPG's then were MUCH MUCH smaller numbers then now in the post-WoW time frame.

There was a lot more to do in UO and EQ than they offer in today's MMORPG's ias far as options. I highly doubt EQ would still be going and putting out expansions 14 years later if it were so terrible. Even new people are going to try it and enjoying it.

There were a lot less toolbags then (Although they still existed) and you're reputation meant something....so players were more prone to be courteous, helpful, and sociable. With today's cross server crap, ability to switch your name or server for a price, etc....people are less friendly and more apt to act like fools because they aren't held accountable....and less social because you rarely have need to get someone elses help unless doing "End game".

I actually believe EQ had far less options in gameplay (it did have more races though), and far less to do for gameplay than games today.

EQ was about sitting in the same sport for hours on end killing the same mobs.  By the time you reached lvl 20 you had killed 3-4 varieties about about 5-6 mobs, seen 2 or 3 zones.  In WoW you would killed 50-100 differnet mobs, seen 4 zones, run 3 dungeons and competed in 2 battlegrounds.  Aside from the crafting that both offered.

There are just factually more options in most of today's games (swtor does not have more options).

There were less toolbags, just cause there was less people, percentagewise I'll bet it's the same, recall the EQ devs had to implement a play nice policy after launch because people were jerks.  I've had this discussion before and I maintain there was no accountability despite people's talk of black lists.  And people still soloed to end game then. 

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I actually believe EQ had far less options in gameplay (it did have more races though), and far less to do for gameplay than games today.

You should really stop talking about EQ if you never played it

less options....right....are we talking about the same game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIPTqQZG6k0&hd=1

 EQ has the most zones, the biggest raids, the most quests, the most items and the most undiscovered quests of any MMO ever released to date.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I actually believe EQ had far less options in gameplay (it did have more races though), and far less to do for gameplay than games today.

You should really stop talking about EQ if you never played it

less options....right....are we talking about the same game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIPTqQZG6k0&hd=1

 Once again, I played EQ for 4 years.  And yes less options.  WoW has far more options of play than EQ did. 

Due to about 18 expansions eq has lots of places to level, but there are very few actual gameplay options.  Every member of a class is identical, WoW gives options for each class.

Leveling in EQ was sit in same zone for hours fighting mobs.  Again by level 20 in both games, WoW has you seeing twice as many zones, twice as many mobs,battlegrounds, and dungeons.  Both have crafting so thats a wash.

EQ - leveling is only through mob grinding.  WoW quests, mobs, dungeons, pvp, bg, gathering/exploring.

WoW just has more gameplay options than EQ does.  The video just shows areas to level in, not more options.

 Once again, I played EQ for 4 years.  And yes less options.  WoW has far more options of play than EQ did. 

I don't believe you, you are so uninformed about the game that I think you never played it.

EQ has 1500 zones, 90,000 items, 3000 items that were never discovered, 21,000 spells, 19 expansions.

It's by far the MMO with the biggest amount of content.

For you to say it doesn't have many options is just troll behavior, just stop, the more you talk about EQ the more clear it becomes you never played it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vocDonG1Rkw

Originally posted by CalmOceans

 Once again, I played EQ for 4 years.  And yes less options.  WoW has far more options of play than EQ did. 

I don't believe you, you are so uninformed about the game that I think you never played it.

EQ has 1500 zones, 90,000 items, 3000 items that were never discovered, 21,000 spells, 19 expansions.

It's by far the MMO with the biggest amount of content.

For you to say it doesn't have many options is just troll behavior, just stop, the more you talk about EQ the more clear it becomes you never played it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vocDonG1Rkw

 

 I didn't say it doesn't have a lot of zones, items, or spells.

I said it has less options for leveling.  You are doing the same thing in each zone, that isn't 1500 options for leveling.  It's one option in 1500 areas.

WoW has more options for leveling.  Again, in EQ by level 20 starting in Gfay you would have been just leaving cb.  That is 2 zones, 3-4 variety of 3-4 mobs.  Thats it.  In WoW by lvl 20 you have seen 4 zones, 2 bg, 2, dungeons and 50-100 different mobs.

Wow lets you level by bg, quest, dungeons, pvp, exploring gathering.  All different.  EQ lets you level by mobs and quests.

You are embarrasing yourself, WoW has more ways to level than EQ. 

For you to say it doesn't have many options to level is just troll behavior, just stop, the more you talk about EQ the more clear it becomes you never played it.

Again, in EQ by level 20 starting in Gfay you would have been just leaving cb.  That is 2 zones, 3-4 variety of 3-4 mobs.  Thats it.

I'm going to stop replying to you because you keep lying about having played EQ.

Here are your choices from lvl 1 to lvl 20

Mines of Gloomingdeep
Quenos hill
Inothule swamp
Misty thicket
East commonlands
Nektulos forest
Commonlands
North Ro
Everfrost Peaks
Toxxulia Forest
Greater Faydark
Befallen
Butcherblock
Steamfont Mountains
Field of Bone
Swamp of No Hope
Shadeweaver's Thicket
Crescent Reach
Blightfire Moors

that's "2  zones"? Really? And don't tell me you didn't have choices, those zones are open for all classes and races.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Again, in EQ by level 20 starting in Gfay you would have been just leaving cb.  That is 2 zones, 3-4 variety of 3-4 mobs.  Thats it.

I'm going to stop replying to you because you keep lying about having played EQ.

Here are your choices from lvl 1 to lvl 20

Mines of Gloomingdeep
Quenos hill
Inothule swamp
Misty thicket
East commonlands
Nektulos forest
Commonlands
North Ro
Everfrost Peaks
Toxxulia Forest
Greater Faydark
Befallen
Butcherblock
Steamfont Mountains
Field of Bone
Swamp of No Hope
Shadeweaver's Thicket
Shadow Haven
Crescent Reach
Blightfire Moors

that's "2 or 3" zones? Really? And don't tell me you didn't have choices, those zones are open for all classes and races.

 Maybe you missed the part  where I said starting in gfay by lvl 20...

In any of those starting areas there would still be only 2-3 zones that you are seeing.  Yes you could go to any of the other zones, you can go to many of the other zones in WoW too.

That isn't the point, you are doing the same thing in each zone, that isn't more gameplay options.  It is one gameplay option in several areas.  Doing the same in wc that I was doing in cb isn't a new option of leveling or gameplay, it's the same option, I"m doing the same thign I was doing before, same mobs even, just in a new skin, new area. 

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Again, in EQ by level 20 starting in Gfay you would have been just leaving cb.  That is 2 zones, 3-4 variety of 3-4 mobs.  Thats it.

I'm going to stop replying to you because you keep lying about having played EQ.

Here are your choices from lvl 1 to lvl 20

Mines of Gloomingdeep
Quenos hill
Inothule swamp
Misty thicket
East commonlands
Nektulos forest
Commonlands
North Ro
Everfrost Peaks
Toxxulia Forest
Greater Faydark
Befallen
Butcherblock
Steamfont Mountains
Field of Bone
Swamp of No Hope
Shadeweaver's Thicket
Shadow Haven
Crescent Reach
Blightfire Moors

that's "2 or 3" zones? Really? And don't tell me you didn't have choices, those zones are open for all classes and races.

 Maybe you missed the part  where I said starting in gfay by lvl 20...

In any of those starting areas there would still be only 2-3 zones that you are seeing.  Yes you could go to any of the other zones, you can go to many of the other zones in WoW too.

That isn't the point, you are doing the same thing in each zone, that isn't more gameplay options.  It is one gameplay option in several areas.

That makes no sense. Of course starting zone is one zone, this is the case in every single MMO, how would you make multiple zones out of a single starting zone? Every starting zone is  accessible in EQ.

Now you're changing your goalposts and saying there aren't gameplay options.

Did you play the game. There are 16 completely different classes in the game. I don't even know of any other game that has so many.

Just stop.

Originally posted by Roxtarr

News flash: Life is full of trade offs and consequences. Sometimes you have to choose between two terrible things. Bored gamers waiting for 45 minutes to find a player you don't know and will never see again or wait 2 minutes to find a player you don't know and will never see again. Let's see ... what's my choice? Oh, you're a social player that wants to meet people? You don't wait 45 minutes anyway - you already have a bunch of friends that will run the dungeon with you.

Moreover...

I know this comes as a shock to MMO purists, but developers #1 priority is to keep the game running. To do this, they need players. Bored players quit. They must minimize the wait time in between fun tasks. GW2's theory was without a trinity, groups would magically form and they were dead wrong. There is as much waiting in GW2 as other games. LFG tool is needed to keep players playing.

 

Pretty much sums up my feelings. The LFG system would never have been invented if the majority of MMO players were able to group up without one. There are now far more people playing these games than there were back in the so called "good ole" days when everyone was forced to group up just to play the game. TOR was also silly for thinking that a gameplayed by hundreds of thousands of people at different times on different days could function without one. I'm in a guild and even I sometimes have to use one because not eveyrone that's online is in the mood to run flashpoints. 

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Again, in EQ by level 20 starting in Gfay you would have been just leaving cb.  That is 2 zones, 3-4 variety of 3-4 mobs.  Thats it.

I'm going to stop replying to you because you keep lying about having played EQ.

Here are your choices from lvl 1 to lvl 20

Mines of Gloomingdeep
Quenos hill
Inothule swamp
Misty thicket
East commonlands
Nektulos forest
Commonlands
North Ro
Everfrost Peaks
Toxxulia Forest
Greater Faydark
Befallen
Butcherblock
Steamfont Mountains
Field of Bone
Swamp of No Hope
Shadeweaver's Thicket
Shadow Haven
Crescent Reach
Blightfire Moors

that's "2 or 3" zones? Really? And don't tell me you didn't have choices, those zones are open for all classes and races.

 Maybe you missed the part  where I said starting in gfay by lvl 20...

In any of those starting areas there would still be only 2-3 zones that you are seeing.  Yes you could go to any of the other zones, you can go to many of the other zones in WoW too.

That isn't the point, you are doing the same thing in each zone, that isn't more gameplay options.  It is one gameplay option in several areas.

That makes no sense. Of course starting zone is one zone, this is the case in every single MMO, how would you make multiple starting zones? Every starting zone is  accessible in EQ.

Now you're changing your goalposts and saying there aren't gameplay options.

Did you play the game. There are 16 completely different classes in the game.

Just stop.

 

 And all the zones except worgen and goblin area are available in WoW.  Leveling in teldrassil is no different than leveling in Coldridge Valley, or Elwynn Forest, or Azurmyst isle...  You doing the same thing in each zone.

Once again starting in Gfay and leveling to 20 you are in gfay and cb.  You can go to other areas, you can do that in WoW.  Going to a different area is not a different gameplay option because you doling the same thing, levelling the exact same way

I allready stated it has more classes.

EQ lets you level by quests, mob grinding.  WoW lets you level by dungeon runs, pvp, bg, quest, mobs, gathering/exploring. Wow has more gameplay options.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

EQ lets you level by quests

what, EQ is 99% grind

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

EQ lets you level by quests

what

 That was because you stated it has more quests than any other game. 

I hardly did any of them, but I have no factual evidence to refute that.

And yes you could level by quests, cb belts and shoulderpads for the win haha.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

This interesting discussion started over on GW2forum that I thought could be a interesting discussion regarding MMO's in general that have instanced dungeons.

 

I see the same argument here in SWTOR.com/forum. And other places as well.

 

But do LFG system really ruin the community in a MMO game?

In GW2, most people use third party sites to do this. Not as effective as in-game LFG system that are built into other known games, but better than nothing.

But because of this flaw, people still shout for groups in the city.

 

Is that really improving the community? having to stand in a populated zone spamming about getting a group.

Is that fun doing that? In WoW this was done often in Vanilla and TBC. But was it fun standing in the city waiting for something to pop? hey even Battlegrounds worked that way. Man was it fun once they added the queue from anywhere system like Warhammer had (too bad they nerfed the BG's soon after to be more fast pace). Could that be a negative side effect?

 

Faster Queue means less dedicated players to long battles? (Vanilla WoW's BGs and Dungeons, vs, Post LFG Dungeons and BGs)

 

maybe it does effect and ruin the community. whats your thoughts on this?

I believe that  a game that has been established for a long period of time and is starting to lose the bulk of its player base would benefit from using a LFG system. However, when you're opening up a brand new game with a LFG system built into it. This definitely lowers the need for community interaction and meerly becomes a tool to obtain quick access to a dungeon without any communication between members.

they added a lot of quests past lvl 80 that do make it possible to level up partly through quests, but it didn't add any gameplay

I played WoW briefly, you're mostly running around like a fruitcake getting and turning in quests non-stop, it doesn't add gameplay, it just adds more annoyance and micro-management.

Its not the LFG its how the LFG was designed.

It can be made to help player engage each other or made to just auto group a player, teleporting them to a dungon with player you will never see again (as in the case of cross server dungoning with out being able to cross a server just becouse you want to...and I don't with a server change fee).

Its all about the HOW it is done, not the IF it is done.