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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » Dedicated Buffing Classes

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83 posts found
  meddyck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1139

3/14/13 11:46:22 AM#21
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

1) We will be actively looking to discourage buff-botting through the game's design. Now, there is no way to prevent someone from having two accounts on a credit card without screwing over families, friends, guilds, etc. but we're going into this saying that our buff/heal system will not favor "buffbot parking" inside a structure, outside of combat range, etc.

2) In CU, I want pure healers to play an important role in the game. Back at Mythic I had numerous discussions about the role of healers in future games and while I think self-heals are great for quick PvE-based games, in a game like CU, we want to encourage healers to play that role.

3) In terms of other support classes, nothing has been decided yet other than I do want to see at least one other support class in the game at launch. I also personally favor a debuff based class rather than a buff based class at launch due to the concern about always having to get buffed up before engaging in battle. Plus, a debuff based class requires active participation in RvR battles (and skill if the system is designed properly) whereas a buff based class *can* sit in one safe/safer area and just keep buffing people. Also, I want to cut down the number of buffs that are in this game, especially at launch.  I do like movement speed buffs though. :)  Again, nothing has been decided yet regarding this part of the discussion.

Part #19123940123 in "I love what Mark is planning for CU"!

Camelot Unchained Backer
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

3/14/13 11:51:25 AM#22
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
 

Doing battle with a bit of a headache right now (working on this eyechart of Digitial Reward Tiers from home doesn't help) but my thoughts here are:


1) We will be actively looking to discourage buff-botting through the game's design. Now, there is no way to prevent someone from having two accounts on a credit card without screwing over families, friends, guilds, etc. but we're going into this saying that our buff/heal system will not favor "buffbot parking" inside a structure, outside of combat range, etc.

2) In CU, I want pure healers to play an important role in the game. Back at Mythic I had numerous discussions about the role of healers in future games and while I think self-heals are great for quick PvE-based games, in a game like CU, we want to encourage healers to play that role.

3) In terms of other support classes, nothing has been decided yet other than I do want to see at least one other support class in the game at launch. I also personally favor a debuff based class rather than a buff based class at launch due to the concern about always having to get buffed up before engaging in battle. Plus, a debuff based class requires active participation in RvR battles (and skill if the system is designed properly) whereas a buff based class *can* sit in one safe/safer area and just keep buffing people. Also, I want to cut down the number of buffs that are in this game, especially at launch.  I do like movement speed buffs though. :)  Again, nothing has been decided yet regarding this part of the discussion.

 

Great response, Mark.  I appreciate it.  I remember in the days of DAoC I never purchased a second account in order to be "competitive" with other players that did it; in fact, I usually just stopped RvR'ing when I encountered it frequently.  Later in the game's life cycle it was far more common and alchemy potions and eventually champion levels allowed to bridge the gap between buffed and bot buffed.  Now that I have additional disposable income, I sadly, wasn't going to allow my gaming experience be totally destroyed if buff botting were allowed within the game; I sadly, would join the craze just to have fun. :(

I love the "discourage buff-botting" approach while designing the game's mechanics.  That statement alone goes a very, very long way for veteran DAoCers and new players alike.  Yet another reason I'm absolutely hyped and thrilled that you're giving MMO's another go.. you and CSE can dooooo it! *in the waterboy voice*

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

3/14/13 1:22:59 PM#23
Thanks Mark! We appreciate you being as forthcoming as you can. I have a feeling this is going to be one hell of a community :)

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  BowbowDAoC

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/10
Posts: 482

3/14/13 1:38:15 PM#24

Originally posted by BowbowDAoC


Buffs are awesome in PvE games, but i dont really see the point of having buffs in a RvR only mmo, it would bring up to the same stats, just higher.

Except maybe like celerity and endurance, and maybe HPwise.

(and for endurance and celerity, give either both possible, or none, otherwise is favorising either melee classes or caster classes).

 

Edit : on top of that, it would make things easier to make sure each classes are balanced (they re not looking for perfect balance, but still, having everyone with "pure stats" would make this even easier )

 

Originally posted by MarkJacobs


Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

I am completely indifferent when it comes to a buffing class.  If they become "required" to be competitive, I'll simply buy another account for myself and use it for my pick up/guild group.

They were completely unfair to those that didn't have it in DAoC, though.

If the buff system even creates an OPTION to do this, then the system is broken... horribly broken.  Having the need for a separate account just for buffs is fucking asinine and will break the game.

For those who don't see a problem with buff-bots, let me briefly explain: it is a unanimously unfair advantage to those players with two computers, the funds for two accounts and/or a connection which will support running two accounts simultaneously.  In short, it provides an advantage obtained OUTSIDE the realm of play.  In a PvP game, this is an absolute deal-breaker.  Think "pay-to-win."

This is the single part of the game design which will prevent me from playing or funding KS. 

I sincerely doubt MJ would endorse a system that supports buff-botting.  Perhaps MJ will comment on this...

 

EDIT: spelling

Doing battle with a bit of a headache right now (working on this eyechart of Digitial Reward Tiers from home doesn't help) but my thoughts here are:


1) We will be actively looking to discourage buff-botting through the game's design. Now, there is no way to prevent someone from having two accounts on a credit card without screwing over families, friends, guilds, etc. but we're going into this saying that our buff/heal system will not favor "buffbot parking" inside a structure, outside of combat range, etc.

2) In CU, I want pure healers to play an important role in the game. Back at Mythic I had numerous discussions about the role of healers in future games and while I think self-heals are great for quick PvE-based games, in a game like CU, we want to encourage healers to play that role.

3) In terms of other support classes, nothing has been decided yet other than I do want to see at least one other support class in the game at launch. I also personally favor a debuff based class rather than a buff based class at launch due to the concern about always having to get buffed up before engaging in battle. Plus, a debuff based class requires active participation in RvR battles (and skill if the system is designed properly) whereas a buff based class *can* sit in one safe/safer area and just keep buffing people. Also, I want to cut down the number of buffs that are in this game, especially at launch.  I do like movement speed buffs though. :)  Again, nothing has been decided yet regarding this part of the discussion.

I had forgotten all about speed buffs... Must be because i was solo scouting our frontiers all the time lol.

 

so my opinion would be to keep celerity and end regen (both or none), Speed buffs and maybe HPwise buff.

having a bunch of buffs/debuffs is imo sort of useless, lets keep pure stats + eventual bonuses from crafted items. I wont mind at all if there is buffs tho, but they'd bring more headaches for developers than anything else, since it'll be RvR only.

Bowbow (kob hunter) Infecto (kob cave shammy) and Thurka (troll warrior) on Merlin/Midgard DAoC
Thurka on WAR

  Odaman

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/13
Posts: 195

3/14/13 1:43:34 PM#25
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
 

I also personally favor a debuff based class rather than a buff based class at launch due to the concern about always having to get buffed up before engaging in battle. Plus, a debuff based class requires active participation in RvR battles (and skill if the system is designed properly) whereas a buff based class *can* sit in one safe/safer area and just keep buffing people.

 

This is reassuring and I completely agree. I think one of the nicer things about daoc were the debuffs particularly dehaste mixed with pbt. My only issue was that the debuffs in that game were spread throughout the casters and were never really centralized to one character to focus on. The closest thing to a real debuffer was resistance debuff casters and the buff classes with shears.

 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19863

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

3/14/13 1:50:11 PM#26
Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

I am completely indifferent when it comes to a buffing class.  If they become "required" to be competitive, I'll simply buy another account for myself and use it for my pick up/guild group.

They were completely unfair to those that didn't have it in DAoC, though.

If the buff system even creates an OPTION to do this, then the system is broken... horribly broken.  Having the need for a separate account just for buffs is fucking asinine and will break the game.

For those who don't see a problem with buff-bots, let me briefly explain: it is a unanimously unfair advantage to those players with two computers, the funds for two accounts and/or a connection which will support running two accounts simultaneously.  In short, it provides an advantage obtained OUTSIDE the realm of play.  In a PvP game, this is an absolute deal-breaker.  Think "pay-to-win."

This is the single part of the game design which will prevent me from playing or funding KS. 

I sincerely doubt MJ would endorse a system that supports buff-botting.  Perhaps MJ will comment on this...

 

EDIT: spelling

One short question.  Do buff bots give the other player any advantage that you can't easily get yourself by working with another player  to obtain? (including one who has a buff bot?)

The answer is no of course, therefore doesn't meet the pay to win definintion in any way.

Edit: On topic, yes, I would like to see Buff/Debuff classes like the Midgard Shaman, they were excellent to play and provided great hybrid utility.  Big issue with the Albion side is they decided to give buffs to Clerics who were also the primary healers and that caused a lot of issues because you had to choose healing in most cases, hence a real rise in buff bots on the Alb side at least.

On Mordred we didn't have nearly the buff botting issue because there were no safe keeps where you could park a bot, and as others have said, limiting the range of the buff (and perhaps the number) more than keeps buf botting in control.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 408

3/14/13 2:00:07 PM#27
Originally posted by Odaman
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
 

I also personally favor a debuff based class rather than a buff based class at launch due to the concern about always having to get buffed up before engaging in battle. Plus, a debuff based class requires active participation in RvR battles (and skill if the system is designed properly) whereas a buff based class *can* sit in one safe/safer area and just keep buffing people.

 

This is reassuring and I completely agree. I think one of the nicer things about daoc were the debuffs particularly dehaste mixed with pbt. My only issue was that the debuffs in that game were spread throughout the casters and were never really centralized to one character to focus on. The closest thing to a real debuffer was resistance debuff casters and the buff classes with shears.

 

My *current* thinking is that the 4th class will be a bard-type class that will have a wide range of buffs/debuffs (not heals). I'm really interested in seeing where we can go with a bard that is purely focused on sound-based effects (especially when it comes to group dynamics) that are more than typical bard class RPG tropes.

This is really open to debate though as it is truly just my initial thoughts on the subject. 

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  CyborWolfTK

Novice Member

Joined: 1/21/13
Posts: 80

3/14/13 2:09:07 PM#28

 

The buffing class I had envisioned:

MAIN

-Has some ability to heal (read base heal)

-Has buffs on timers, and/or range limited to group mates only.(Don't want buff bots)

-Has ability to mitigate,dampen,or neutralize damage.(think prot monk in GW)

 

SECONDARY

-Has some ability to tank, and/or cast offensive magic, and create benifical group effects, or harmful enemy debuff.

-Has some CC ability

-Has some CC clearing ability.

-Has speed increase.

-Wears Medium or Heavy armors, and/or shield and medium class weapons

 

 

 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19863

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

3/14/13 2:16:33 PM#29
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Odaman
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
 

I also personally favor a debuff based class rather than a buff based class at launch due to the concern about always having to get buffed up before engaging in battle. Plus, a debuff based class requires active participation in RvR battles (and skill if the system is designed properly) whereas a buff based class *can* sit in one safe/safer area and just keep buffing people.

 

This is reassuring and I completely agree. I think one of the nicer things about daoc were the debuffs particularly dehaste mixed with pbt. My only issue was that the debuffs in that game were spread throughout the casters and were never really centralized to one character to focus on. The closest thing to a real debuffer was resistance debuff casters and the buff classes with shears.

 

My *current* thinking is that the 4th class will be a bard-type class that will have a wide range of buffs/debuffs (not heals). I'm really interested in seeing where we can go with a bard that is purely focused on sound-based effects (especially when it comes to group dynamics) that are more than typical bard class RPG tropes.

This is really open to debate though as it is truly just my initial thoughts on the subject. 

Ah, there's hope then that my favorite class of all time the Minstrel will make an appearance of sorts.  But then again I suppose it will be a new combination of skills that make up this new role.  Sounds exciting.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  meddyck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 1139

3/14/13 2:19:51 PM#30
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
My *current* thinking is that the 4th class will be a bard-type class that will have a wide range of buffs/debuffs (not heals).

So... what are the first 3 classes? (Did you think you were going to slip that one by us? Heh.)

Camelot Unchained Backer
DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  OgreRaper

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/11
Posts: 381

3/14/13 2:20:33 PM#31
Originally posted by MarkJacobs

My *current* thinking is that the 4th class will be a bard-type class that will have a wide range of buffs/debuffs (not heals). I'm really interested in seeing where we can go with a bard that is purely focused on sound-based effects (especially when it comes to group dynamics) that are more than typical bard class RPG tropes.

This is really open to debate though as it is truly just my initial thoughts on the subject. 

 

I think that would be cool. Make buffs quite powerful, but very short duration, so there is strategy in knowing when to use the right buffs. That would be much more interesting than long duration buffs.

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

3/14/13 2:50:05 PM#32
It would be cool if you could hear the bard's song for the duration of the buff, and to make all the songs in the same key/tempo that would mix together when twisting. Could even provide additional benefits for timing the twists in an aesthetically-pleasing manner.

This doesn't really have anything to do with the topic directly, but I am bored and daydreaming ;)

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Tumblebutz

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 338

3/14/13 2:52:36 PM#33
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Tumblebutz
Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

*stuff Plastic-Metal said*

*stuff Tumblebutz said* 

EDIT: spelling

Doing battle with a bit of a headache right now (working on this eyechart of Digitial Reward Tiers from home doesn't help) but my thoughts here are:


1) We will be actively looking to discourage buff-botting through the game's design. Now, there is no way to prevent someone from having two accounts on a credit card without screwing over families, friends, guilds, etc. but we're going into this saying that our buff/heal system will not favor "buffbot parking" inside a structure, outside of combat range, etc.

2) In CU, I want pure healers to play an important role in the game. Back at Mythic I had numerous discussions about the role of healers in future games and while I think self-heals are great for quick PvE-based games, in a game like CU, we want to encourage healers to play that role.

3) In terms of other support classes, nothing has been decided yet other than I do want to see at least one other support class in the game at launch. I also personally favor a debuff based class rather than a buff based class at launch due to the concern about always having to get buffed up before engaging in battle. Plus, a debuff based class requires active participation in RvR battles (and skill if the system is designed properly) whereas a buff based class *can* sit in one safe/safer area and just keep buffing people. Also, I want to cut down the number of buffs that are in this game, especially at launch.  I do like movement speed buffs though. :)  Again, nothing has been decided yet regarding this part of the discussion.

Thanks, Mark!  It keeps gettin' better and better!

Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival

RED IS DEAD!

  sweetdigs

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/03
Posts: 199

3/14/13 3:16:44 PM#34
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
My *current* thinking is that the 4th class will be a bard-type class that will have a wide range of buffs/debuffs (not heals).

So... what are the first 3 classes? (Did you think you were going to slip that one by us? Heh.)

The Holy Trinity, of course.  =)

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 408

3/14/13 3:28:06 PM#35
Originally posted by meddyck
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
My *current* thinking is that the 4th class will be a bard-type class that will have a wide range of buffs/debuffs (not heals).

So... what are the first 3 classes? (Did you think you were going to slip that one by us? Heh.)

No sir, even if I was tempted to do so, I wouldn't even try to slip anything past this crew, that's for sure. OTOH, burying stuff in my blog posts, hidden messages in dialogue, etc. I do so love doing. I posted a few on the Vault that nobody figured out. :)

As to the other three classes, they are the expected HT, one tank, one healer and one damage dealer but that's only part of the story. Assuming we fund, I want to use the next two years to do something interesting with each one of the core classes. I've got some interesting thoughts on the healer and dps but nothing special has lept to mind yet on the pure tank. The key is that once we've freed ourselves from having to worry about PvE, where can we go with each class to make them fun and interesting to play? This is one of the reasons I'm not doing what I did with Dark Age and planning to have more classes than EQ1 had when we launched. This time, I'd rather have 4 or 5 great classes per realm at launch and then slowly add new ones. If we can create and balance more classes during development, cool but if not, well, that's fine too. The key is I want to work with not only the team here but also hear what other people have to say because frankly, I'm not smart enough to think of every cool possibility but I am smart enough to not even try to do that. The same applies to the stealthers of course. We have some good ideas here, one BSC idea but I want to hear what our backers have to say before we commit to anything. I'm sure somebody will say that this is just more B.S., that I only listen to me, but I look forward to seeing what those same people say after about a year of development, especially if we can implement the BSC idea. :)

As always, I'm grateful for your support and interest in CU as I am for everyone else who has been part of thise brief but interesting journey so far. Back to work on the eye chart...

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

3/14/13 3:35:06 PM#36
I believe more and more in this game every day. Take my money already! ;)

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Plastic-Metal

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 423

3/14/13 4:04:05 PM#37
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
We have some good ideas here, one BSC idea but I want to hear what our backers have to say before we commit to anything. I'm sure somebody will say that this is just more B.S., that I only listen to me, but I look forward to seeing what those same people say after about a year of development, especially if we can implement the BSC idea. :)

As always, I'm grateful for your support and interest in CU as I am for everyone else who has been part of thise brief but interesting journey so far. Back to work on the eye chart...

 

Yeah, there's a lot of naysayers and trolls floating around this forum..  I can't wait to see CSE prove 'em wrong! :D

My name is Plastic-Metal and my name is an oxymoron.

  MarkJacobs

CEO City State Entertainment

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 408

3/14/13 4:21:22 PM#38

Originally posted by OgreRaper

Originally posted by MarkJacobs

My *current* thinking is that the 4th class will be a bard-type class that will have a wide range of buffs/debuffs (not heals). I'm really interested in seeing where we can go with a bard that is purely focused on sound-based effects (especially when it comes to group dynamics) that are more than typical bard class RPG tropes.

This is really open to debate though as it is truly just my initial thoughts on the subject. 

 

I think that would be cool. Make buffs quite powerful, but very short duration, so there is strategy in knowing when to use the right buffs. That would be much more interesting than long duration buffs.

Without committing yet, I agree.  Long duration buffs, IMO, are not the way to go with this game. They are not bad, wrong, etc. but I want the RvR to be a bit more interesting for all parties. Now, I don't want this to be a button-spamming game either but I do think that we can find the right balance given a long beta cycle.

Originally posted by PerfArt
It would be cool if you could hear the bard's song for the duration of the buff, and to make all the songs in the same key/tempo that would mix together when twisting. Could even provide additional benefits for timing the twists in an aesthetically-pleasing manner.

This doesn't really have anything to do with the topic directly, but I am bored and daydreaming ;)

Would be. Good thing one of our programmers is also a bit of a composer, plays multiple instruments and is a sound guy. 

Originally posted by PerfArt
I believe more and more in this game every day. Take my money already! ;)

Spoke to Amazon payments today actually about our account. :)

Originally posted by Plastic-Metal

Originally posted by MarkJacobs
We have some good ideas here, one BSC idea but I want to hear what our backers have to say before we commit to anything. I'm sure somebody will say that this is just more B.S., that I only listen to me, but I look forward to seeing what those same people say after about a year of development, especially if we can implement the BSC idea. :)

As always, I'm grateful for your support and interest in CU as I am for everyone else who has been part of thise brief but interesting journey so far. Back to work on the eye chart...

 

Yeah, there's a lot of naysayers and trolls floating around this forum..  I can't wait to see CSE prove 'em wrong! :D

I don't mind the naysayers, I really don't. To me there's a world of difference though between attacking an idea and attacking a person so, as usual it's  just the personal stuff I adhore. I might be a slow learner but I'm not going to get drawn into flame-wars, back and forth, etc. whenthings get to that level anymore and I'll just ignore the thread/person. See, I can be taught! :)

That being said, I think that overall the vast majority of folks here have been awesome and I can say without any fear of contradiction that the community here has already contributed to the evolution of CU since I announced this project. Heck, they have even done that before we announced when I was in full "lurking mode." Whether it is with the game itself or the Kickstarter, I'm glad I came back to the forums to talk and not just played the role of "aloof developer" because I suck at that and I really hate it. I wasn't really sure how it would turn out (as the folks at CSE could tell you if you asked them) but I can't complain as it has been truly net positive here.

Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

3/14/13 4:29:39 PM#39
Huge nerd freakout in progress. Thanks, Mark!

/freakout

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  KappenWiz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/06/07
Posts: 163

3/14/13 4:37:44 PM#40

Could you possibly make an ability that scales to work better the harder I press my keys?  I'm a lousy, old-school, slow-reflexed noob without a macro mouse. At least make it so I don't look like a putz when I confusedly jam keys.

 

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