Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by jimdandy26
I would rather they not include it at all. I feel it detracts far too much from the game.

How so?

Its expensive content wise, both in its payout and opportunity. For it to be "relevent" it has to be tied into systems in such a way as to make it something I must use (ala Eq2 for example, which I hated). Besides, as has been gone into with virtually every housing thread ad infinitum, its something that a minorty of players enjoy. It is to pvers what world pvp is to pvpers. Something that is highly cried/asked for, but then rarely utilized.

Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by jimdandy26
I would rather they not include it at all. I feel it detracts far too much from the game.

How so?

Its expensive content wise, both in its payout and opportunity. For it to be "relevent" it has to be tied into systems in such a way as to make it something I must use (ala Eq2 for example, which I hated). Besides, as has been gone into with virtually every housing thread ad infinitum, its something that a minorty of players enjoy. It is to pvers what world pvp is to pvpers. Something that is highly cried/asked for, but then rarely utilized.

So if its a feature many PvEers ask for, how is it not worth doing?

How can they not have player housing? They keep saying how much they are using the RPGs as inspiration and how similar this game plays to the RPGs yet they seem to be removing the core elements that make the RPGs so great.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by jimdandy26
I would rather they not include it at all. I feel it detracts far too much from the game.

How so?

Its expensive content wise, both in its payout and opportunity. For it to be "relevent" it has to be tied into systems in such a way as to make it something I must use (ala Eq2 for example, which I hated). Besides, as has been gone into with virtually every housing thread ad infinitum, its something that a minorty of players enjoy. It is to pvers what world pvp is to pvpers. Something that is highly cried/asked for, but then rarely utilized.

So if its a feature many PvEers ask for, how is it not worth doing?

Because it only pays for itself in the very long term if it does at all. Paying an artist to make 2 weapons will have much more effect on a game then paying that same artist to make 10 lamps.

Originally posted by Xobdnas

How can they not have player housing? They keep saying how much they are using the RPGs as inspiration and how similar this game plays to the RPGs yet they seem to be removing the core elements that make the RPGs so great.

What elements?

Originally posted by Xobdnas

How can they not have player housing? They keep saying how much they are using the RPGs as inspiration and how similar this game plays to the RPGs yet they seem to be removing the core elements that make the RPGs so great.

How do you figure? The most popular rpgs of all time had a "base" you operated out of at best, but most of that was nothing more than a contrivence to carry you around the map. None of which offered any kind of real customization that many people feel is a requirement for housing.

Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by Xobdnas

How can they not have player housing? They keep saying how much they are using the RPGs as inspiration and how similar this game plays to the RPGs yet they seem to be removing the core elements that make the RPGs so great.

How do you figure? The most popular rpgs of all time had a "base" you operated out of at best, but most of that was nothing more than a contrivence to carry you around the map. None of which offered any kind of real customization that many people feel is a requirement for housing.

Tools are becoming so easy to use to create spaces you can customize that devs are handing them over to players. Neverwinter, Rifts, Dragon Prophet to name a few, how is this a problem any more? Even landscape is not outisde players ability to manipulate. Importing a dumbed down set of dev tools is not hard to do and takes very little time away from devs making other content as whats needed is already in their hands.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by Xobdnas

How can they not have player housing? They keep saying how much they are using the RPGs as inspiration and how similar this game plays to the RPGs yet they seem to be removing the core elements that make the RPGs so great.

How do you figure? The most popular rpgs of all time had a "base" you operated out of at best, but most of that was nothing more than a contrivence to carry you around the map. None of which offered any kind of real customization that many people feel is a requirement for housing.

Tools are becoming so eash to use to create spaces you can customize that devs are handing them over to players. Neverwinter, Rifts, Dragon Prophet to name a few, how is this a problem any more? Even landscape is not outisde players ability to manipulate. Importing a dumbed down set of dev tools is not hard to do and takes very little time away from devs making other content as whats needed is already in their hands.

I have no interest in Neverwinter. Relying on "throwing enough shit at a wall and some of it sticking" as a f2p business practice is not my idea of a good time. As for the "dumbed down" dev tools, bs. Look at Bethesda taking 8 months to get the ck out, and even then its had numerous updates due to bugs and the like, and it still has issues. The time spent on those tools in Rift took away time that could have been spent refining its numerous shortcommings in its xpac, like all of the area's players told them would be havens for bots, or relying on kill quests as the most effecient way of progression, and thats before looking at the sheer amount of additional item support needed, that could have been turned into things that people have been clamoring for (and will continue, even after many of those needs are met) like different outfits and types of outfits, weapons,fixing the copypasta world, etc.

Every single decision made during game development has a trade off. There is a reason that generally if a game is going to have/get housing its not until later in its life cycle.

Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by Xobdnas

How can they not have player housing? They keep saying how much they are using the RPGs as inspiration and how similar this game plays to the RPGs yet they seem to be removing the core elements that make the RPGs so great.

How do you figure? The most popular rpgs of all time had a "base" you operated out of at best, but most of that was nothing more than a contrivence to carry you around the map. None of which offered any kind of real customization that many people feel is a requirement for housing.

Tools are becoming so eash to use to create spaces you can customize that devs are handing them over to players. Neverwinter, Rifts, Dragon Prophet to name a few, how is this a problem any more? Even landscape is not outisde players ability to manipulate. Importing a dumbed down set of dev tools is not hard to do and takes very little time away from devs making other content as whats needed is already in their hands.

I have no interest in Neverwinter. Relying on "throwing enough shit at a wall and some of it sticking" as a f2p business practice is not my idea of a good time. As for the "dumbed down" dev tools, bs. Look at Bethesda taking 8 months to get the ck out, and even then its had numerous updates due to bugs and the like, and it still has issues. The time spent on those tools in Rift took away time that could have been spent refining its numerous shortcommings in its xpac, like all of the area's players told them would be havens for bots, or relying on kill quests as the most effecient way of progression, and thats before looking at the sheer amount of additional item support needed, that could have been turned into things that people have been clamoring for (and will continue, even after many of those needs are met) like different outfits and types of outfits, weapons,fixing the copypasta world, etc.

Every single decision made during game development has a trade off. There is a reason that generally if a game is going to have/get housing its not until later in its life cycle.

I agree, core game should always come first, you just sound like you would rather housing is never added. IMO thats ignoring a large % of PvE players who looking for just that. With so many quality MMOs coming out this year that have housing, IMO ZM should really look at when on their game plan it should be added.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

I agree, core game should always come first, you just sound like you would rather housing is never added. IMO thats ignoring a large % of PvE players who looking for just that. With so many quality MMOs coming out this year that have housing, IMO ZM should really look at when on their game plan it should be added.

I would love to see the data that has lead you to believe its a large percent of the playerbase. Those looking for that immersive single player experience in a group based game I can only believe to be a very small minorty based on the fact that they have no game catering to them. The Repopulation is really it to my knowledge, and even that is yet to bare any fruit. Other than that Wildstar is the only other "big" title that is known to be launching as far as I am aware, and that is also making a mistake of launching with 40 man raids too (and yes, I consider them a mistake no matter how much I am looking forward to them).

Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

I agree, core game should always come first, you just sound like you would rather housing is never added. IMO thats ignoring a large % of PvE players who looking for just that. With so many quality MMOs coming out this year that have housing, IMO ZM should really look at when on their game plan it should be added.

I would love to see the data that has lead you to believe its a large percent of the playerbase. Those looking for that immersive single player experience in a group based game I can only believe to be a very small minorty based on the fact that they have no game catering to them. The Repopulation is really it to my knowledge, and even that is yet to bare any fruit. Other than that Wildstar is the only other "big" title that is known to be launching as far as I am aware, and that is also making a mistake of launching with 40 man raids too (and yes, I consider them a mistake no matter how much I am looking forward to them).

I have no numbers, just been what I have seen from the MMOs I have played and reading forums. Like EQ2, almost everyone had a house in that game. Even people who never thought they would like that kind of content. Most forums support the idea of player housing as its not something that takes much dev time as its mainly players who are doing the work there after the devs have made the space for us. It attracts a type of player most MMOers like to see in their game. So even if they dont want a house, they like players who like housing. Hardcore crafters tend to like housing. Most guilds like to have hard core crafters in their pockets. Nice to know when thge raid comes friday night the bank will have all the golden fish sticks you need and pots to boot =-) lol

Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

I agree, core game should always come first, you just sound like you would rather housing is never added. IMO thats ignoring a large % of PvE players who looking for just that. With so many quality MMOs coming out this year that have housing, IMO ZM should really look at when on their game plan it should be added.

I would love to see the data that has lead you to believe its a large percent of the playerbase. Those looking for that immersive single player experience in a group based game I can only believe to be a very small minorty based on the fact that they have no game catering to them. The Repopulation is really it to my knowledge, and even that is yet to bare any fruit. Other than that Wildstar is the only other "big" title that is known to be launching as far as I am aware, and that is also making a mistake of launching with 40 man raids too (and yes, I consider them a mistake no matter how much I am looking forward to them).

I have to argue with that. In DAoC (are we all sick of hearing about how awesome that game was in it's hayday, yet?) it was very much a multiplayer feature. The housing was contained within several very large zones, and each home was a part of a "neighborhood" of sorts, with 10-15 houses all grouped together. Players were able to add merchants to their homes, both to sell trade goods, as well as the classic merchants and vault keepers (bank) you'd find in cities for crafting, and could then open up their houses to the public to use.

A big negative to this type of personal housing, however, is once you have a place of your own to do your 'city chores', the main cities become lifeless. So while I do like the option of player housing from a selfish perspective, I don't believe it's healthy for the game world. And if you're just putting in housing to have a decorating mini-game, I don't think it needs to be rushed out.

I enjoy housing/guild halls in games, but I also think it tends to suck the playerbase out of the world.

The most grievous example of this in my opinion was EQ2. If they had just made housing and guildhalls that you decorate, it may not have been so bad. But they made it so that you could do everything from your house/guild hall. Crafting, Auction House, materials gathering, teleporters to anywhere in the world, mentoring services, barber services, repair services, training dummies, and bank storage all became amenities that were accessed through housing/guild halls. In my opinion, taking this route really does contribute to the world feeling empty.

Housing/guild halls with some kind of a decoration system and maybe some storage I think might make a really nice addition to the game, even if in my opinion it's less important than many other things. But if they do add it, I would prefer that they don't go overboard with what you are actually capable of doing from your house/guild hall.

On a side note, I doubt that they will ever offer any form of non-instanced housing based on the direction they are taking this game. Given that, I view housing more of a decorative mini-game with some possible storage anyway. Then I ask the question, "is a decorative mini-game really what the game needs?" Not in my opinion, but if they do I add it, I would likely mess around with it every once in a while.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

I have no numbers, just been what I have seen from the MMOs I have played and reading forums. Like EQ2, almost everyone had a house in that game. Even people who never thought they would like that kind of content. Most forums support the idea of player housing as its not something that takes much dev time as its mainly players who are doing the work there after the devs have made the space for us. It attracts a type of player most MMOers like to see in their game. So even if they dont want a house, they like players who like housing. Hardcore crafters tend to like housing. Most guilds like to have hard core crafters in their pockets. Nice to know when thge raid comes friday night the bank will have all the golden fish sticks you need and pots to boot =-) lol

Arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless.

seen on reddit

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/17q2iu/how_will_housing_work/

Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

I have no numbers, just been what I have seen from the MMOs I have played and reading forums. Like EQ2, almost everyone had a house in that game. Even people who never thought they would like that kind of content. Most forums support the idea of player housing as its not something that takes much dev time as its mainly players who are doing the work there after the devs have made the space for us. It attracts a type of player most MMOers like to see in their game. So even if they dont want a house, they like players who like housing. Hardcore crafters tend to like housing. Most guilds like to have hard core crafters in their pockets. Nice to know when thge raid comes friday night the bank will have all the golden fish sticks you need and pots to boot =-) lol

Arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless.

Then everyone should stop posting about ESO till its post launch and we know the facts lol. Speculation is our capital colloquium.

Originally posted by colddog04

 Given that, I view housing more of a decorative mini-game with some possible storage anyway. Then I ask the question, "is a decorative mini-game really what the game needs?" Not in my opinion, but if they do I add it, I would likely mess around with it every once in a while. 

That's how I've always viewed the implementation of safe, instanced, individual or guild housing... just a mini-game some enjoy. It's not something I've ever cared about in MMOs...nor did I fret over it in Skyrim for that matter. Even there although I had several houses, I just used the Archmage quarters as my storage and crafting spot and ignored all the other ones.

Guild built and owned structures that can be attacked and defended is a whole different story. That system I do like. We won't be able to build them here, but we will have guild ownership of pre-built structures in Cyrodiil... hopefully there will be enough upgrade options with fortifications and npc guards that it will feel somewhat homey. 

But that's just me... I've never fished in WOW either.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by jimdandy26

Arguing anecdotal evidence is pointless.

Then everyone should stop posting about ESO till its post launch and we know the facts lol. Speculation is our capital colloquium.

What? You backed up your argument with the idea of "but forums leave this impression" or "But players I play with say this". Which is not only a poor argument, but I can fire off with several completely opposite experiences, much like Iselin did above. Thats why even bringing that into the discussion is pointless.

Originally posted by Iselin

But that's just me... I've never fished in WOW either.

I did. Becuase it was a requirement for feasts and various crafting crafting professions, not to mention nerd points. None of those stopped me from hating, and in later expansions completely stopping, fishing. It got to the point I would rather farm for an hour and buy the mats that I would have spent 30min fishing for than to actually fish. There are many of those activities I just did not enjoy, and really never have in various games.

Originally posted by Iselin

Guild built and owned structures that can be attacked and defended is a whole different story. That system I do like.

That's a housing system I can definitely get behind. Place a limit on the number of actual locations that guild halls can be placed, and that's a sure recipe for conflict as guilds compete for real estate.

I don't really understand why titles of yester-year are still more feature packed than modern games. Deep crafting systems, housing and general fluff are left out of titles. 

I also NEVER believe any developer when they say things like housing will be in an expansion... cause the general track record on that is not good. They preach it and then never implement it.