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  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3464

3/12/13 12:37:30 PM#21
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs

I dont really understand why they had to tie the Factions to specific Races/Nations instead of making the Factions independant.

Why follow the DAoC design to the letter? The 3 Realm (Faction) PvP in a large central location I get and I think will work well. Thats the part of DAoC that people remember as being the best.

The 3 locked PvE areas just seem so contrived. Its like they said "Well, we did it that way in DAoC and since we are using the RvR model for ESO we might as well use the PvE model as well"

Its like they didnt even try to expand  on what was done before or think outside the standard Themepark MMO box and use their creativity.

Honestly the whole game just seems to be phoned in.

 

Its because other MMOs like Warhammer followed the DAoC model but made the game have the freedom to go anywhere and it broke the game. RvR areas were dead and players took the easy road. Instead of fun battles players did gorilla warfare, jumping to easy targets and them jumping again to other areas with no population. Players questing were attacked when they didnt want to PvP and quit in frustration. Locked faction maps is needed to make the DAoC model work as it did in the past. A place to drive faction pride, a place to let PvEers have their fun to. 

 

To illustrate I put it this way, Coke rocks and by far the biggest selling pop. Coke keeps messing with it and trying to make it better and sales drop. What do they do, bring back Classic Coke and all is well again. DAoC works for many reasons and part of that is the faction locked areas.

There were many things that contributed to the downfall of WAR. The freedom to explore the world was probably the least of them if it at all.

 

ESO isnt like bringing back Classic Coke. Its like mixing Classic Coke with Dr Pepper.

 

Highlighted your words in red, may want to read your post again and then your reply lol. Following DAoC RvR system to the letter down to the faction lock is bringing back classic RvR, or as I put it classic coke!

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/12/13 12:39:59 PM#22
Originally posted by coretex666

I am not addressing the quality of the game. It may be a great game...

I think that is an important statement.  I don't have a problem with the game's systems or quality, it's just personally I don't think it fits in an Elder Scrolls game.

It feels like they worked TES around the RvR idea rather than working the RvR around TES.

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/12/13 12:41:49 PM#23
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Following DAoC RvR system to the letter down to the faction lock is bringing back classic RvR, or as I put it classic coke!

So Pepsi can release Classic Coke now?

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1161

 
OP  3/12/13 12:43:09 PM#24
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by coretex666

I am not addressing the quality of the game. It may be a great game...

I think that is an important statement.  I don't have a problem with the game's systems or quality, it's just personally I don't think it fits in an Elder Scrolls game.

It feels like they worked TES around the RvR idea rather than working the RvR around TES.

I echo this statement.

In fact I like a lot of the stuff I read about the game and sure I am hung up on these related design issues but honestly, they are huge issues for me.

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5550

3/12/13 12:44:47 PM#25

Nanfoodle vs Maelwyn has become a thing.

 

I'm with Maelwyn on the race/faction lock thing. I think it's ridiculous not just for an Elder Scrolls game, but for an MMORPG in general. It worked ok for DAoC because every faction had a bunch of races, but when each only has 3 races, it's just painful. My brother and one of my friends are going to try this one out for sure. What if I want to be an Argonian based on my long history of choosing Argonians throughout the series and my brother prefers being an Orsimer axe murderer? One of us is shit out of luck. And for no good reason at all.

 

And about the race war thing. Yes, they made it up completely. They actually now have Dunmer and Argonian on the same faction. A very WTF move that really has nothing to do with the lore of the races up to this point.

 

But then, I'm still looking forward to it. :P

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3464

3/12/13 12:50:39 PM#26
Originally posted by colddog04

Nanfoodle vs Maelwyn has become a thing.

 

I'm with Maelwyn on the race/faction lock thing. I think it's ridiculous not just for an Elder Scrolls game, but for an MMORPG in general. It worked ok for DAoC because every faction had a bunch of races, but when each only has 3 races, it's just painful. My brother and one of my friends are going to try this one out for sure. What if I want to be an Argonian based on my long history of choosing Argonians throughout the series and my brother prefers being an Orsimer axe murderer? One of us is shit out of luck. And for no good reason at all.

 

And about the race war thing. Yes, they made it up completely. They actually now have Dunmer and Argonian on the same faction. A very WTF move that really has nothing to do with the lore of the races up to this point.

 

But then, I'm still looking forward to it. :P

DAoC only started with 4 races a faction. Thats just 1 more then ESO. I do agree, DAoC does give up some freedom but what you get in return IMO is well worth it. As for not playing with friends, I feel you there but that would be no different then any game with any design. In the end you need to pick a side for race, faction, story, server and someone always needs to give up what they want to play with friends. 

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1161

 
OP  3/12/13 12:54:47 PM#27
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

and someone always needs to give up what they want to play with friends. 

Bollox!

In badly designed games perhaps.

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/12/13 12:56:09 PM#28
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

...someone always needs to give up what they want to play with friends. 

That should be ESO's catch phrase.

 

 

Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

and someone always needs to give up what they want to play with friends. 

Bollox!

In badly designed games perhaps.

ROFL, I'd call jinx but you posted that a few minutes before me.

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1161

 
OP  3/12/13 12:58:27 PM#29
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

...someone always needs to give up what they want to play with friends. 

That should be ESO's catch phrase.

lol yeah.

 

TESO. Because gaming is never easy!

TESO. Friends come 2nd!

TESO. Where what YOU want is not what WE will give you!

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3464

3/12/13 1:03:11 PM#30
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

and someone always needs to give up what they want to play with friends. 

Bollox!

In badly designed games perhaps.

Ok, then every MMO has been badly designed. What MMO did not make you pick, race, faction or a server? Or you now on the level of just contradicting everything? lol I guess haters are gona hate no matter what lol

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5550

3/12/13 1:06:29 PM#31
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by colddog04

Nanfoodle vs Maelwyn has become a thing.

 

I'm with Maelwyn on the race/faction lock thing. I think it's ridiculous not just for an Elder Scrolls game, but for an MMORPG in general. It worked ok for DAoC because every faction had a bunch of races, but when each only has 3 races, it's just painful. My brother and one of my friends are going to try this one out for sure. What if I want to be an Argonian based on my long history of choosing Argonians throughout the series and my brother prefers being an Orsimer axe murderer? One of us is shit out of luck. And for no good reason at all.

 

And about the race war thing. Yes, they made it up completely. They actually now have Dunmer and Argonian on the same faction. A very WTF move that really has nothing to do with the lore of the races up to this point.

 

But then, I'm still looking forward to it. :P

DAoC only started with 4 races a faction. Thats just 1 more then ESO. I do agree, DAoC does give up some freedom but what you get in return IMO is well worth it. As for not playing with friends, I feel you there but that would be no different then any game with any design. In the end you need to pick a side for race, faction, story, server and someone always needs to give up what they want to play with friends. 

I understand the point. For instance in WoW, you choose Horde or Alliance. If your friend likes Horde and you like Alliance, one of you is shit out of luck.

 

In my opinion, the difference is that this is Elder Scrolls and that is Warcraft. The Horde and Alliance existed as a faction in every previous Warcraft game. People understood that they were different and actually even had differing gameplay mechanics for each side. That is not true of the Elder Scrolls series. Races have never before been separated by faction at all. It doesn't make sense in Elder Scrolls if you take the context into account. 

 

I think if they just let you choose any race and then choose one of the 3 factions it would make a lot more sense for the series. That way everyone would get to play their favored race and the faction system would be kept completely intact. 

 

Not to mention 3 races for each faction is extremely limited. 4 races for each faction is also extremely limited, but that does add a whopping 3 more races to the overall game.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Maelwydd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/26/09
Posts: 1161

 
OP  3/12/13 1:07:52 PM#32
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Ok, then every MMO has been badly designed. What MMO did not make you pick, race, faction or a server? Or you now on the level of just contradicting everything? lol I guess haters are gona hate no matter what lol

It feels like my skin is itching......

I can't bring myself to reply...too...many....expletives...

Someone please, give this guy a clue!

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/12/13 1:15:13 PM#33
Originally posted by colddog04

In my opinion, the difference is that this is Elder Scrolls and that is Warcraft. The Horde and Alliance existed as a faction in every previous Warcraft game. People understood that they were different and actually even had differing gameplay mechanics for each side. That is not true of the Elder Scrolls series. Races have never before been separated by faction at all. It doesn't make sense in Elder Scrolls if you take the context into account. 

I would agree here.  TES fans have grown attached to the races they've played from the single players series, faction locks just doesn't make sense.  I think that goes to show how much Zenimax actually considered or understood the fanbase.

I think if they just let you choose any race and then choose one of the 3 factions it would make a lot more sense for the series. That way everyone would get to play their favored race and the faction system would be kept completely intact. 

It would make a lot more sense in an Elder Scrolls world to allow players to pick what faction they joined.  In my opinion that would encourage faction pride in TES players more than locking them into a faction because of what race they like to play.

Not to mention 3 races for each faction is extremely limited. 4 races for each faction is also extremely limited, but that does add a whopping 3 more races to the overall game.

DAoC even had room to grow whereas TES is limited on the races that are playable.

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

3/12/13 1:22:49 PM#34
Originally posted by Maelwydd

Sure taking a medium from one form to another you dont get to keep it pure, that never happens but you can try and get as close as you can. 

Wish the develpers had at least tried. This is ENTIRELY my point.

The way you describe the game makes it seem like they did absolutely nothing to incorporate TES systems into the MMO design, which is patently false. There are a plethora of announced TES systems present in the current design. Stop being dramatic.

The current model lets pure PvE players enjoy the world without getting attacked or forced to flag because some jurk stands in their AE.

Why do you keep using this argument. Can you not think of a way to keepPvP inside Cyrodil but want to allow exploration? I can, several. And they are not wild ideas, they are idea's already in cirulation, already being used, already popular.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, absolutely. This was the way they chose to do it. Can you think of other ways? Of course you can. Are they better ways? That's all subjective.

 It makes each area drive faction pride with a great story for that faction.

I would better fight for a chosen master then be enslaved with no choice.

But that is also irrelevent. You play on your server, let others play on theirs. Unfortunately their design isn't flxible.

Once again, stop being dramatic. You have your choice at character creation who to fight for. Same as any other game with factions. WoW, Rift, WAR, etc. all have race locked factions. I'm sorry, but everyone can't be Drizzt Do'Urden and keep the uniqueness of the lore intact.

You give up only 1 thing, freedom to go everywhere on one char.

 

Freedom to choose my race.

Freedom to choose my faction.

Freedom to explore my world.

Pretty big things to me.

More false, overdramatic nonesense. You're not being stopped picking whatever race you want. You're not being stopped picking whichever faction you prefer. And you sound very entitled. What makes it your world? It's their world. However much you loved the single player games, it doesn't provide you ownership of their lore.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3464

3/12/13 1:25:21 PM#35
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by colddog04

Nanfoodle vs Maelwyn has become a thing.

 

I'm with Maelwyn on the race/faction lock thing. I think it's ridiculous not just for an Elder Scrolls game, but for an MMORPG in general. It worked ok for DAoC because every faction had a bunch of races, but when each only has 3 races, it's just painful. My brother and one of my friends are going to try this one out for sure. What if I want to be an Argonian based on my long history of choosing Argonians throughout the series and my brother prefers being an Orsimer axe murderer? One of us is shit out of luck. And for no good reason at all.

 

And about the race war thing. Yes, they made it up completely. They actually now have Dunmer and Argonian on the same faction. A very WTF move that really has nothing to do with the lore of the races up to this point.

 

But then, I'm still looking forward to it. :P

DAoC only started with 4 races a faction. Thats just 1 more then ESO. I do agree, DAoC does give up some freedom but what you get in return IMO is well worth it. As for not playing with friends, I feel you there but that would be no different then any game with any design. In the end you need to pick a side for race, faction, story, server and someone always needs to give up what they want to play with friends. 

I understand the point. For instance in WoW, you choose Horde or Alliance. If your friend likes Horde and you like Alliance, one of you is shit out of luck.

 

In my opinion, the difference is that this is Elder Scrolls and that is Warcraft. The Horde and Alliance existed as a faction in every previous Warcraft game. People understood that they were different and actually even had differing gameplay mechanics for each side. That is not true of the Elder Scrolls series. Races have never before been separated by faction at all. It doesn't make sense in Elder Scrolls if you take the context into account. 

 

I think if they just let you choose any race and then choose one of the 3 factions it would make a lot more sense for the series. That way everyone would get to play their favored race and the faction system would be kept completely intact. 

 

Not to mention 3 races for each faction is extremely limited. 4 races for each faction is also extremely limited, but that does add a whopping 3 more races to the overall game.

Ya if from the ground up they had thought of that it that way, it would have been nice to have 3 factions with all the races or more races. They can add more like most MMOs do. But I still think if you had all the races on one faction it would water down faction pride. My main point I keep making is this. 6 years in development and I dont know how many millions, how likely will they chuck out all that time, money and VO acting? My suggestion back on page one of this thread is to make suggestions that could make it in the current game without the devs needing to go back to ground zero. Ideas that will get what you want without asking the devs to chuck out millions of bucks to do so lol The stand of asking them to go back to ground zero seems so odd. 

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/12/13 1:25:36 PM#36
Originally posted by Maelwydd
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Ok, then every MMO has been badly designed. What MMO did not make you pick, race, faction or a server? Or you now on the level of just contradicting everything? lol I guess haters are gona hate no matter what lol

It feels like my skin is itching......

I can't bring myself to reply...too...many....expletives...

Someone please, give this guy a clue!

There is no clue for people who do not understand the Elder Scroll.

There are plenty of MMOs that does not restrict you to a faction by race; GW2, TSW, AoC, AoW, CO, DDO, Tera... and that's just off the top of my head.

The only time that race restricted factions does work in a MMO is with a new franchise or when the IP previously supported the suggestion (SWTOR, WoW, DAoC).  No previous TES game supports a system like this (even in Skyrim you are not forced to join the Stormcloaks because you're a Nord).

  sapphen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 918

3/12/13 1:28:36 PM#37
Originally posted by rygard49

The way you describe the game makes it seem like they did absolutely nothing to incorporate TES systems into the MMO design, which is patently false. There are a plethora of announced TES systems present in the current design. Stop being dramatic.

Could you please tell me what TES systems are actually in ESO?  Even the combat sounds more like GW2 than TES.

And you sound very entitled. What makes it your world? It's their world. However much you loved the single player games, it doesn't provide you ownership of their lore.

For TES fans, it is our world.  Bethesda has went through great lengths to make us feel as if we owned the world.  It may sound entitled but IMO it's just great game design.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3464

3/12/13 1:37:56 PM#38
Originally posted by sapphen
Originally posted by rygard49

The way you describe the game makes it seem like they did absolutely nothing to incorporate TES systems into the MMO design, which is patently false. There are a plethora of announced TES systems present in the current design. Stop being dramatic.

Could you please tell me what TES systems are actually in ESO?  Even the combat sounds more like GW2 than TES.

And you sound very entitled. What makes it your world? It's their world. However much you loved the single player games, it doesn't provide you ownership of their lore.

For TES fans, it is our world.  Bethesda has went through great lengths to make us feel as if we owned the world.  It may sound entitled but IMO it's just great game design.

Yes but his point stands. I also am a TES fan. I have been playing the games sinse they were 8 bit games. What makes it more your world then mine? What makes it more my world then Bethesda or ZeniMax Media. They have been working hand in hand on this game. This is their vision both companies picked. Is this the first video game to take a new direction? Maybe Mario should have staid 2D? Or WoW should have staid a RTS? You need to shake things up to keep things fresh and alive. 

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1085

3/12/13 1:46:04 PM#39

The present faction set up for ESO was a bad design decision.     Of course, there's no chance for any changes.  That's out of the picture, absolutely.  Indeed one of the issues with voiced games is that they are extremely difficult to make changes for, in comparison to the dieing art of reading comprehension.  Not that there would be any chance of that in a game this far along.  They've made their Procrustean bed, and will make us lie in it.

 

The reason the faction set for ESO was a poor decision is simple.  It's not the mechanics of it (other than the ludicrous invisible wall they're going to have to use), those mechanics will probably function reasonably well.  The problem is the expectations that come with the game.  This game is not entitled DAoC2.  It's trying to leverage the interest in the Elder Scrolls series, and as such it gets all the expectations of the Elder Scrolls players.  It was just simpler for the devs to arbitrarily pick groups of three contiguous regions and say, 'Factions!'. 

 

The faction pride thing doesn't cut it for me personally.  Not very many Elder Scrolls fans played those games for their cutting edge PvP.  If the PvE side of ESO is poor, I'll be gone, as the PvP is not a huge draw for me.  If it is good, I'll have less problems than some, as I am an inveterate altoholic.   But I can certainly see the issue.

 

The complaints they get are the price they pay for futzing around with an established world.  You want the draw, you have to take the lumps.....

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5550

3/12/13 1:48:10 PM#40
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Ya if from the ground up they had thought of that it that way, it would have been nice to have 3 factions with all the races or more races. They can add more like most MMOs do. But I still think if you had all the races on one faction it would water down faction pride. My main point I keep making is this. 6 years in development and I dont know how many millions, how likely will they chuck out all that time, money and VO acting? My suggestion back on page one of this thread is to make suggestions that could make it in the current game without the devs needing to go back to ground zero. Ideas that will get what you want without asking the devs to chuck out millions of bucks to do so lol The stand of asking them to go back to ground zero seems so odd. 

I'm not completely sure what they would have to do, but certainly they wouldn't have to go from ground zero. Change some lore. Get some voice acting in. Change the character creation process somewhat. Change some text. Maybe a month or two? I really have no clue, but it's certainly not a change that an MMORPG developer with funding like theirs would be incapable of at this point of development. BETA hasn't even started.

 

Edit: You know, maybe it would be ridiculous. If they have huge story lines that are, say, race specific, it would be an incredible task. But if they kept the dialog race neutral since each faction has to handle 3 races, it wouldn't be such a mammoth undertaking.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

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