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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » If you don't like the holy trinity, come up with something better.

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190 posts found
  CalmOceans

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1778

 
OP  3/10/13 12:17:18 AM#1

I see some people complain about the holy trinity.

That's fine, but realise that the holy trinity from Everquest, which was based on D&D, created one of the most successful MMO communities ever, a community that grouped and was much stronger than the fast-paced action games we see now.

So people who say

"the trinity is boring, we need something new"

That's great, but unless you are able to offer something as compelling as the trinity then I'll remain playing games with a trinity.

Don't fix what isn't broken.

 

edit:

I need to add this for people who didn't play EQ, people mistakingly say EQ didn't use trinities even though EQ coined the phrase. 

EQ's trinity  was warrior, cleric, enchanter. This is where the name comes from. It referred to 3 classes that were extremely powerful in a number of expansions and ended up as preferral classes, a trinity.

  Hazelle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/20/11
Posts: 762

3/10/13 1:24:30 AM#2

Allow players to have more than one skill set at the same time.

  aSynchro

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/11
Posts: 129

3/10/13 1:33:27 AM#3
1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

4) D&D doesn't use the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.
  zipzap

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/03/06
Posts: 123

3/10/13 1:36:11 AM#4
Originally posted by CalmOceans

Don't fix what isn't broken.

so nothing should be upgraded or changed ever?

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/10/13 1:46:44 AM#5
Originally posted by Hazelle

Allow players to have more than one skill set at the same time.

Most games have all sorts of overlapping skill sets, with each class fielding multiple skill sets at a time.  It's just that once you zoom out to the trinity-role layer that's as far as you can go before role overlap makes the game considerably more shallow.

My tank druid can heal himself while tanking, or switch roles to be a full-on healer while in the same instance.  That's pretty much the extreme limit to how much the skillsets can be allowed to happen at the same time.  At some point you have to bite off a specialized role and play it: you can't do everything.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3070

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

3/10/13 1:48:44 AM#6

I think if you want any chance of changing the system you have to look at group sizes larger than 5.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  austriacus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/07
Posts: 622

3/10/13 1:51:12 AM#7
Originally posted by aSynchro
1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

4) D&D doesn't ue the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

Omfg this was spot on. 

  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 3650

3/10/13 3:01:20 AM#8
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by aSynchro
1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

4) D&D doesn't ue the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

Omfg this was spot on. 

Did he come up with something better ? GW2 is just as broken as any trinity ever was and EVE is different but " so complex your avg mmo player would walk away from the game " isn't really better....for most people.

The problem with almost every game that "solves" the  trinity riddle is people end up with a mish mash of skills that end up more a zerg than anything.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  pathiean

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/28/09
Posts: 27

3/10/13 3:08:20 AM#9

The game for people who complain about the holy trinity is called "God" they want to tank, dps, and heal all at the same time. Its also a one player game... your tank is you, the only one playing, the DD is, you again, your the only one playing...and the healer is your mastery of drinking health potions...This is also any rpg on a consoul in the 80's-90's.

Honestly though free choice build sets is nothing new, but fact remains, we need a master tank, we need a master healer, and we need tons of DPS... its just the way it is, you cant be a master of everything.

  neobahamut20

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 306

We can only show them the path, but they have to be the ones to take it.

3/10/13 3:16:17 AM#10
Originally posted by CalmOceans

 

Don't fix what isn't broken.

Really?

That is the baby boomer sentence of those satisfied with the status quo. They are the ones that sell out at the first opportunity, the ones that push outdated business models on everyone, the ones that left the future generations in debt. Are you really no better than they are? Are you really satisfied with stagnation and mundane, uninteresting ways of living? Can't you see that the next generation wants nothing but to evolve? Stagnation means humanity is broken. Where is your curiosity? Your will to outdo your elders? Your will to tinker with the world around you? Do you not have an ounce of humanity left in you?

Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  Hrimnir

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1016

3/10/13 3:21:19 AM#11
 
 
Originally posted by aSynchro
1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

4) D&D doesn't ue the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

1. No it didnt, in fact it had a "quadrity", as you needed an enchanter for crowd control, or a really freakin good bard.

2. The holy trinity is not broken, the current form of the MMORPG is broken.  The Holy Trinity works just fine when you have a game that properly promotes grouping.  With the current state of mmo's being online single player RPGs then yes, the holy trinity becomes pointless.  Also, you're misidentifying the problem, the issue is not the holy trinity, but the pigeon holing of certain classes to certain roles. Rift proved the holy trinity works just fine, because just about every class could play just about every role.

3. GW2 is not a success, 3 million boxes sold means nothing if only 1/8th of that still regularly log into the game. See Diablo III for evidence of high box sales and failure. EVE ABSOLUTELY has the holy trinity, its just because its not called a cleric, or a DPS, or a tank.  But you absolutely have to have DPS ships, support ships, and tank ships to be be succesful in a non 1 on 1 fight. UO's focus was on PVP, and you can bet your ass the people who were most successful were the ones who showed up with a couple healers and CC'ers in the group.  Lets see, 5 dps, 2 healers and a cc'er vs 8 dps, who do you think wins that fight...

4. D&D is not an MMO. *Gasp*

 

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  Maephisto

Novice Member

Joined: 2/15/12
Posts: 653

3/10/13 3:23:07 AM#12

Why do people have to take sides?

After years of playing MMO's with the trinity, I was estatic to play GW2 and have no trinity.

After playing GW2 for awhile, I am ready to play another game that is trinity based.

I enjoy both approaches to the genre.  However, I would enjoy a slightly beefier "support" class in GW2. 

  Alberel

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/09
Posts: 1119

3/10/13 3:23:48 AM#13

Most people seem to think the way to 'end' the trinity is to remove roles. Not many people seem to consider the possibility of adding more instead; CC, pulling, debuffing, resource management... just a few of the roles that have disappeared from the genre in the last decade.

What's happened is that these lost roles have all been combined into others. The modern tank now also covers pulling, resource management is gone because everyone has endless mana (or whatever their resource is). CC is no longer relevant because content has simply been dumbed down to remove the need...

Having class roles wouldn't be so boring if there were more than just three. Filling slots in groups with specific roles also wouldn't be so hard if more games adopted the 'all-in-one' approach allowing all classes to be accessed (seaparately) on the same character.

  KaosProphet

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 383

3/10/13 3:48:41 AM#14
Originally posted by CalmOceans

I see some people complain about the holy trinity.

That's fine, but realise that the holy trinity from Everquest, which was based on D&D, created one of the most successful MMO communities ever, a community that grouped and was much stronger than the fast-paced action games we see now.

So people who say

"the trinity is boring, we need something new"

That's great, but unless you are able to offer something as compelling as the trinity then I'll remain playing games with a trinity.

Realize that EQ thrived on numbers that today would be considered an impetus to shift payment models in hopes of "stopping the bleeding" before shutting the servers down.  (Ironically:  both EQ and UO are still alive, despite still having numbers like that...) So I ask:  compelling to *whom?*

You like trinity, that's fine; go play trinity.  I don't like it, I'd rather play something with a system akin to EveO's.  IF they still made games like they did in EQ's time, we could both have our games that make us happy, instead of having to put up with each other's complaining in some half-ass "we have trinity, but it's watered down" hybrid concocted because the devs need both our subscriptions to stay afloat.

Or alternately, some "Standard Trinity Just Like the Last" game that makes you happy and leaves me with an abundance of time to spend on forums like this, asking for a game that doesn't bore the hell out of me.  

Don't fix what isn't broken.

One's man's treasure is another man's trash.

(Corrolary to a better known saying.)

  waynejr2

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3663

RIP City of Heroes!

3/10/13 4:03:31 AM#15
Originally posted by Hrimnir
 
 
Originally posted by aSynchro
1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

4) D&D doesn't ue the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

1. No it didnt, in fact it had a "quadrity", as you needed an enchanter for crowd control, or a really freakin good bard.

2. The holy trinity is not broken, the current form of the MMORPG is broken.  The Holy Trinity works just fine when you have a game that properly promotes grouping.  With the current state of mmo's being online single player RPGs then yes, the holy trinity becomes pointless.  Also, you're misidentifying the problem, the issue is not the holy trinity, but the pigeon holing of certain classes to certain roles. Rift proved the holy trinity works just fine, because just about every class could play just about every role.

3. GW2 is not a success, 3 million boxes sold means nothing if only 1/8th of that still regularly log into the game. See Diablo III for evidence of high box sales and failure. EVE ABSOLUTELY has the holy trinity, its just because its not called a cleric, or a DPS, or a tank.  But you absolutely have to have DPS ships, support ships, and tank ships to be be succesful in a non 1 on 1 fight. UO's focus was on PVP, and you can bet your ass the people who were most successful were the ones who showed up with a couple healers and CC'ers in the group.  Lets see, 5 dps, 2 healers and a cc'er vs 8 dps, who do you think wins that fight...

4. D&D is not an MMO. *Gasp*

 

 #2 is very good point.  Some today complained about neverwinter non-cleric character soloing needed to use heal potions and how all clases should have healing.  Too much soloing so they need to do everything. 

We shoud make a game:  Tank Mages now with extra healing.

  simmihi

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/10
Posts: 501

3/10/13 4:06:40 AM#16
Originally posted by Maephisto

Why do people have to take sides?

After years of playing MMO's with the trinity, I was estatic to play GW2 and have no trinity.

After playing GW2 for awhile, I am ready to play another game that is trinity based.

I enjoy both approaches to the genre.  However, I would enjoy a slightly beefier "support" class in GW2. 

After years of playing MMO's with the trinity, I was estatic to play GW2 and have no trinity.

After playing GW2 for awhile, I am not ready to play another garbage like that again. Gief trinity back please.

GW2's "no trinity" approach turned everything into an incredible messy zerg and terrible instances. If I want to play group FPS games, I'd play those. Role-Playing, you know people, Roles?

Also, when all your classes are some form of "DPS", there will always be the "top-dps" class, the class that everyone will play and everyone will have in instances. "Whatever you want to play, you need an lvl80 warrior, you want to do instances, don't you?" were the words of the "veterans" in my guild when i've joined the game.

  KaosProphet

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 383

3/10/13 4:18:40 AM#17

 


Originally posted by Hrimnir     3. GW2 is not a success, 3 million boxes sold means nothing if only 1/8th of that still regularly log into the game.
 

1/8th of three million is 375,000. That's not too far off from Everquest's peak. Would you say Everquest was a failure?

 


Originally posted by Hrimnir EVE ABSOLUTELY has the holy trinity, its just because its not called a cleric, or a DPS, or a tank.  But you absolutely have to have DPS ships, support ships, and tank ships to be be succesful in a non 1 on 1 fight.
 

Eh?DPS, sure. But who's the tank - tackle? They don't manage aggro or hold positions, they debuff speed and prevent escape. Eve uses the word 'tank,' but it's less a role and more a reference to ship survivability.

And what is meant by support? We talking 'heal-analogs,' EW, or is this where tackle actually fits?

I mean sure, you could dodge and weave around vagaries enough to maybe argue Eve had a 'trinity' of some kind hiding under it's hood somewhere, but getting there takes far too circuitous a route to call it the Holy Trinity.


Originally posted by Hrimnir UO's focus was on PVP, and you can bet your ass the people who were most successful were the ones who showed up with a couple healers and CC'ers in the group.  Lets see, 5 dps, 2 healers and a cc'er vs 8 dps, who do you think wins that fight...

Back when I was playing, I didn't see much '5 dps 2 healers and a cc'er." The opportunity cost of stacking CC and heal capability onto the DPS build wasn't high enough to justify not doing it in most cases. Dedicated healer or dedicated CC might have been *better* at it, but not by enough of a margin to create an actual edge against 8 JOATs.

I liked UO, but of the (few) classless games out there, it was one of the more vulnerable to the "everyone does everything" criticism. Might have changed after I left, though.

  KaosProphet

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 383

3/10/13 4:23:16 AM#18
Originally posted by simmihi
Originally posted by Maephisto

Why do people have to take sides?

After years of playing MMO's with the trinity, I was estatic to play GW2 and have no trinity.

After playing GW2 for awhile, I am ready to play another game that is trinity based.

I enjoy both approaches to the genre.  However, I would enjoy a slightly beefier "support" class in GW2. 

After years of playing MMO's with the trinity, I was estatic to play GW2 and have no trinity.

After playing GW2 for awhile, I am not ready to play another garbage like that again. Gief trinity back please.

GW2's "no trinity" approach turned everything into an incredible messy zerg and terrible instances. If I want to play group FPS games, I'd play those. Role-Playing, you know people, Roles?

Can't speak for others, but when I role-play I prefer to do it via character roles rather than metagamed-mechanic roles.

  austriacus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/07
Posts: 622

3/10/13 4:23:30 AM#19
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by aSynchro
1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

4) D&D doesn't ue the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

Omfg this was spot on. 

Did he come up with something better ? GW2 is just as broken as any trinity ever was and EVE is different but " so complex your avg mmo player would walk away from the game " isn't really better....for most people.

The problem with almost every game that "solves" the  trinity riddle is people end up with a mish mash of skills that end up more a zerg than anything.

Im Sorry but i dont agree with you at all, GW2 solved all the problems i had with the trinity and he happens to mention them all.

When i want to do any dungeon i go to the lfg site( There is not any groupt that i can see asking for a specifici class at any time), it takes 3 minutes, and i can go with any class i want and my friends can bring any class they want.

  Agent_Joseph

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/11/06
Posts: 663

3/10/13 4:25:52 AM#20
Originally posted by aSynchro
1) EQ didn't have a strict Holy Trinity. And sorry but its the first time i heard "EQ community was amazing *because* i could play a tank!!"

2) The Holy Trinity IS broken. Tank in pvp? Healer when doing solo quest ? Having to wait 1 hours because your group is missing a tank ? Having your healer friend enable to play with you because you are yourself a healer ? Please.

4) D&D doesn't use the trinity. There a long thread about it somewhere on these forums. Basic idea is: you heal *after the fight*

3) Non trinity mmo already exist and are/were succesful. You should check UO EVE or GW2 and its +3 millions boxes sale.

 pvp in Eve without logistic ship ? ...or incursions?

 

 

only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

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