When I read the forums, I get this feeling from the majority posters: "I want to play an MMORPG, but..."

"...I don't want a massive world that takes forever and a day to traverse."
"...I don't want to stand there swinging my sword."
"...I want my heavily armored warrior to be able to do acrobatics in full plate."
"...I want mini-games galore, for almost everything I do."
"...I want to click a button and be instantly transported to the dungeon I just threw my name onto a list for."
"...I want massive amounts of instancing so that I feel like what I do affects the world."
"...I want massive instancing so that I don't have to worry about other players spoiling my gaming experience."
"...I want to be able to turn off chat."
"...I want to be told a story where my character saves the universe."
"...I want to be able to jump online for the 15-30 minutes I have free and gain something useful."
"...I don't want downtime where I feel like I have to converse with others. I have friends IRL, thank you."

All I can ask is, Do these players really want to play MMORPGs?

Can't wait to see thousands of WoW players give their opinion on EQNext.

Current MMO are nothing like they were before, everything starting with WoW completely changed MMO into a casual gaming experience, if I started with WoW instead of EQ I would have probably have the same idea as them about MMO.

Some thing are better, but so much is worse too.

Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Really? I get the exact opposite feeling from these boards.

I think this board represents a vocal minority.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Really? I get the exact opposite feeling from these boards.

I think this board represents a vocal minority.

Of that, I have no doubt.

Sorta a straw man list, tieing it all together like that.  There are a number of different issues lumped in there.  Now games are all abstractions, so you might not like guys in plate doing acrobatics, whereas I don't like guys armored up like14th century knights who seem to have weaponry equivalent to swiss army knives for damage, but who can insult folks in all languages.  --  Plus I understand there are some pretty cool videos of people in plate armor actually doing  impressive physical feats.

Abstractions.  They are done for all different parts of the game.  Mileage may vary on what aspects of them people prefer.

No we are a minority, people who watch love connection and live in a world of glazed over mediocrity are the ones the investors that fund development companies are targeting

Why, because they are glazed over with mediocrity.

Kinda like we all want to have a healthy weight, but boy that fat hamburger at the fast food joint for $4.99 dosent help......unless of course I become extreme and post comments about it somewhere, where then you will probably be told to shut up by your stupid non thinking peers to stop being a whiner.....

who are probably fat

and stupid

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

When I read the forums, I get this feeling from the majority posters: "I want to play an MMORPG, but..."

"...I don't want a massive world that takes forever and a day to traverse."
"...I don't want to stand there swinging my sword."
"...I want my heavily armored warrior to be able to do acrobatics in full plate."
"...I want mini-games galore, for almost everything I do."
"...I want to click a button and be instantly transported to the dungeon I just threw my name onto a list for."
"...I want massive amounts of instancing so that I feel like what I do affects the world."
"...I want massive instancing so that I don't have to worry about other players spoiling my gaming experience."
"...I want to be able to turn off chat."
"...I want to be told a story where my character saves the universe."
"...I want to be able to jump online for the 15-30 minutes I have free and gain something useful."
"...I don't want downtime where I feel like I have to converse with others. I have friends IRL, thank you."

All I can ask is, Do these players really want to play MMORPGs?

 Yes they do and unfortunately they are a pretty vocal crowd and the devs are listening to them.....

Originally posted by ellobo29
When I read the forums...... i say to myself.. "AAAHHHHhhhhh the internets... where everybody and there pet gerbil thinks that they have an opinion AND THAT IT MATTERS FOR SOMETHING....

Including you?... ^^

Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one. ^^  I suspect that someone who came up with a game with many of those traits would find a good sized audience.

Originally posted by Matticus75

No we are a minority, people who watch love connection and live in a world of glazed over mediocrity are the ones the investors that fund development companies are targeting

Why, because they are glazed over with mediocrity.

Kinda like we all want to have a healthy weight, but boy that fat hamburger at the fast food joint for $4.99 dosent help......unless of course I become extreme and post comments about it somewhere, where then you will probably be told to shut up by your stupid non thinking peers to stop being a whiner.....

who are probably fat

and stupid

  Hell, the real problem is that the burger cost less than making your own food...and less still than buying or making healthy food.  Top that with the fact that we change our minds about what is healthy each year..and well, burger wins.  Its tasty, cheap, and at least you know its bad for you.  Better than the fake sugar trend of the last decade, where you find out, at the end, that its not only bad for you but its also preventing your body from shedding fat to boot.

Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by Matticus75

No we are a minority, people who watch love connection and live in a world of glazed over mediocrity are the ones the investors that fund development companies are targeting

Why, because they are glazed over with mediocrity.

Kinda like we all want to have a healthy weight, but boy that fat hamburger at the fast food joint for $4.99 dosent help......unless of course I become extreme and post comments about it somewhere, where then you will probably be told to shut up by your stupid non thinking peers to stop being a whiner.....

who are probably fat

and stupid

  Hell, the real problem is that the burger cost less than making your own food...and less still than buying or making healthy food.  Top that with the fact that we change our minds about what is healthy each year..and well, burger wins.  Its tasty, cheap, and at least you know its bad for you.  Better than the fake sugar trend of the last decade, where you find out, at the end, that its not only bad for you but its also preventing your body from shedding fat to boot.

 You can still grind steak into hamburger and make 1/2 pound patties but then that be gourmet food

You can't please all people at the same time. Tastes differ, and that is good. While one enjoys the game as it is others complain. Perfectly normal thing.

I think that the people who want such changes, which strips the MMO from features that makes it a MMO, they are just frustrated with one of the aspects.

Players want a good game.  MMORPGs can be good games.

• Nothing about that implies travel has to be tedious.  Tedious travel is simply bad design.
• Nothing about it implies combat has to be stationary.  The only thing implied is a light (at best) twitch skill component, since that's a defining trait of RPGs and part of what makes them successful with their demographic.
• Acrobatic fullplate is pretty rarely requested, but certainly I'd have a lot less fun in WOW if I wasn't able to charge and heroic leap to zip all over like a maniac. If you took it away without replacing it with an equally deep and skill-rewarding set of gameplay mechanics, you'd be net negative in terms of fun.
• Instant dungeon teleport?  Again, tedious travel is bad design.
• Instancing to allow the world to show impact is great, but obviously can't be the entire experience or must remain a shared MMO experience (as with phasing and cross-realm PVE areas.)  Honestly the instanced parts of MMORPGs feel far more "RPG" than the non-instanced ones.
• Saving the universe is perfectly fine if it fits the game's aesthetic.  The aesthetic of doing heroic things appeals to people more than being a shit-covered peasant...for some reason.
• Mandatory downtime is usually bad design, but depends on how it's paced.  The ideal is to let the player be in control: it's up to them whether to pursue content nonstop or sit in town socializing.  

"Originally posted by AlBQuirky

When I read the forums, I get this feeling from the majority posters: "I want to play an MMORPG, but..."

"...I don't want a massive world that takes forever and a day to traverse."
"...I don't want to stand there swinging my sword."
"...I want my heavily armored warrior to be able to do acrobatics in full plate."
"...I want mini-games galore, for almost everything I do."
"...I want to click a button and be instantly transported to the dungeon I just threw my name onto a list for."
"...I want massive amounts of instancing so that I feel like what I do affects the world."
"...I want massive instancing so that I don't have to worry about other players spoiling my gaming experience."
"...I want to be able to turn off chat."
"...I want to be told a story where my character saves the universe."
"...I want to be able to jump online for the 15-30 minutes I have free and gain something useful."
"...I don't want downtime where I feel like I have to converse with others. I have friends IRL, thank you."

All I can ask is, Do these players really want to play MMORPGs?

And when I read this forum I see the complete opposite and it all can be summed up in.

"Give us back our virtual worlds modern MMO's are rubbish"

I find it ironic that instant teleportation was in EQ at release and they also expanded it to be accessible by all players in the Planes of Power expac in 2002 but WoW only had that latter type of instant teleport when Burning Crusade was launched in 2006 and only in Shatrath, all other transport was from Bat, Griffon, underground railway and Zepplin. Though my Lock could, with the aid of others, pull players to outside dungeons from anywhere in the world.

Originally posted by Theocritus

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

When I read the forums, I get this feeling from the majority posters: "I want to play an MMORPG, but..."

"...I don't want a massive world that takes forever and a day to traverse."
"...I don't want to stand there swinging my sword."
"...I want my heavily armored warrior to be able to do acrobatics in full plate."
"...I want mini-games galore, for almost everything I do."
"...I want to click a button and be instantly transported to the dungeon I just threw my name onto a list for."
"...I want massive amounts of instancing so that I feel like what I do affects the world."
"...I want massive instancing so that I don't have to worry about other players spoiling my gaming experience."
"...I want to be able to turn off chat."
"...I want to be told a story where my character saves the universe."
"...I want to be able to jump online for the 15-30 minutes I have free and gain something useful."
"...I don't want downtime where I feel like I have to converse with others. I have friends IRL, thank you."

All I can ask is, Do these players really want to play MMORPGs?

 Yes they do and unfortunately they are a pretty vocal crowd and the devs are listening to them.....

No they are the majority of gamers, not unhappy forum posters and thats where the money is. So who would you aim you new MMO at? a bunch of MMO vets who cannot agree on what makes a good game and are always moving the goalposts or a bunch of casual players that will buy your game in the millions?

Originally posted by Axehilt

Players want a good game.  MMORPGs can be good games.

• Nothing about that implies travel has to be tedious.  Tedious travel is simply bad design.
• Nothing about it implies combat has to be stationary.  The only thing implied is a light (at best) twitch skill component, since that's a defining trait of RPGs and part of what makes them successful with their demographic.
• Acrobatic fullplate is pretty rarely requested, but certainly I'd have a lot less fun in WOW if I wasn't able to charge and heroic leap to zip all over like a maniac. If you took it away without replacing it with an equally deep and skill-rewarding set of gameplay mechanics, you'd be net negative in terms of fun.
• Instant dungeon teleport?  Again, tedious travel is bad design.
• Instancing to allow the world to show impact is great, but obviously can't be the entire experience or must remain a shared MMO experience (as with phasing and cross-realm PVE areas.)  Honestly the instanced parts of MMORPGs feel far more "RPG" than the non-instanced ones.
• Saving the universe is perfectly fine if it fits the game's aesthetic.  The aesthetic of doing heroic things appeals to people more than being a shit-covered peasant...for some reason.
• Mandatory downtime is usually bad design, but depends on how it's paced.  The ideal is to let the player be in control: it's up to them whether to pursue content nonstop or sit in town socializing.  

All you have to have to be an MMORPG is a shared persistent online world with lots of players, some form of progression, some form of narrative, and not too much twitch.

     When you say bad design, don't you really mean "in my opinion"?   I view things differently.. To me any game that allows instant travel to anywhere in the world by anyone is too unbelievable even in a fantasy world.. IMO, Original EQ had the best form of travel for players.. Combat should be somewhat stationary.. A person in full plate leaping 30 feet while doing 20 somersaults is just silly.. Instancing is bad design IMO.. I play mmo's to be in a social world, whereas instancing just puts you into private rooms.. You might as well just go play Xbox then.. Everyone is a superhero?  Really?  This is more console game thinking of everyone needs to be a hero.. When I first stated playing AD&D in the 80's I did not play it to be a HERO.. I was just a normal run of the mill druid having fund with friends..  This didn't change when I started EQ in 1999.. I was no hero and had no desire to be a hero.. Everyone I played with was pretty much the same way.. Manditory downtime such as meditating, town trips for food/drink and supplies was great.. I remember teaching languages which was a good concept..

     From where I sit.. the new MMO genre is just too selfish and demanding, and have little clue how to be normal.. It seems everyone wants to be "special"..... oooooof

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

When I read the forums, I get this feeling from the majority posters: "I want to play an MMORPG, but..."

"...I don't want a massive world that takes forever and a day to traverse."
"...I don't want to stand there swinging my sword."
"...I want my heavily armored warrior to be able to do acrobatics in full plate."
"...I want mini-games galore, for almost everything I do."
"...I want to click a button and be instantly transported to the dungeon I just threw my name onto a list for."
"...I want massive amounts of instancing so that I feel like what I do affects the world."
"...I want massive instancing so that I don't have to worry about other players spoiling my gaming experience."
"...I want to be able to turn off chat."
"...I want to be told a story where my character saves the universe."
"...I want to be able to jump online for the 15-30 minutes I have free and gain something useful."
"...I don't want downtime where I feel like I have to converse with others. I have friends IRL, thank you."

All I can ask is, Do these players really want to play MMORPGs?

Personally i want to play games that are fun to me. Whether they are MMORPGs are irrelevant. And some MMORPGs do have those features (assessibe, no long travel ...), and i will play them.

Let me put it this way .. i don't want to play a game because of its genre (or some stringent definition that people on teh internet argue about endlessly) but i won't mind if a game, happens to be in the MMORPG genre, fit my preference of fun and i will play it.