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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » POLL: Should there be some type of Player to Player Collision Detection in CU?

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123 posts found
  hawkryl

Novice Member

Joined: 8/13/12
Posts: 24

4/14/13 11:09:05 PM#41
Originally posted by topographic
Originally posted by lizardbones

I voted "Maybe". It's the kind of thing that can make things a lot better if done right, and can make a game nearly unplayable if done wrong.

There's the $50,000 question: What is "done right"? I'm not sure anybody can describe what that is.

Who knows, maybe Foundational Principles Online can pull it off. We will just have to wait and see.

"Done right" would be a system implemented by MJ/CSE that the founders/backers/testers have play tested and given feedback on, and everyone came to a concensus with.  But as you ended your post with we'll all just have to wait and see. 

  poisonman

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/09
Posts: 59

4/15/13 1:19:46 AM#42

I think it would need to be a combination (mixed) system.

Where your Realm mates are More like Mud where you can pass through them but not easily especially in combat.   Maybe make it Water out of combat or in safe areas where there is no pvp / rvr (towns, cities, whatever).

Enemies should always be hard collision though, then need to be Stone.   Maybe add some sort of a shove system if your stronger than the other person or if they don't have a defense stance or ability like shield wall,hold the line, etc activated at the time, so you can shove past them possibly.

Collision Detection can be really good if it is done right as everyone says, doesn't cause a lot of lag or framerate issues, and doesn't cause Realm mates to block and grieft eachother.

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  Axxar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 1942

"See how I reward those who fail me!"

4/15/13 1:28:47 AM#43
Originally posted by Tierless

Yes but it has to work correctly or don't bother at all.

Agreed. WAR had CD but it felt very glitchy and ultimately detracted from the combat. Eg. chasing someone as a melee and being just out of reach, yet colliding with him constantly so you couldn't get closer. Or being stuck inside one of your allies and having to jump and jerk your way out. Or trying to block someone getting at your healer yet people just running straight through you anyway.

Currently playing: Divinity: Original Sin, FTL, Hearthstone and Skyrim.
Eagerly anticipating: Camelot Unchained, Elite: Dangerous, Legend of Grimrock 2 and Star Citizen.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/15/13 9:32:35 AM#44
Originally posted by Taldier
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
...
My comment about squishies hiding behind tanks was in reference to a choke point ie. keep door where you can't flank ... Sigh :/ look at big picture please
You don't have options but go after tanks when they clogging a open keep door... This was lost on you as well
No time machine, just experience playing multitude of games
But good luck.

Why would you assume that the keep fights would be totally linear around a single door?  This is the part that keeps baffling me.  Is it just lack of imagination?

Heck, even if you do assume such a simplistic scenario, if someone jams all the tanks in the front of the charge I'll just send people out over the outer wall into the middle of their mages and let the blood fly while their tanks are stuck fighting in the tunnel.

 

Everything is so linear with you.  Your argument against CD is that we should just mass AOE the doorway to fend people off.

I'm not assuming anything lol, stop taking every example I say as the be all and end all... good god look at the big picture, i'm trying to describe certain scenarios that will be problematic, and any kind of stand off around keep gates or doors, the stalemate will get drawn out far too long and become boring, especially melee dps.

You can think what you want about my arguments and opinions, but from your responses it is clear you arn't listening so i'll stop talking to you. Maybe you should play the non-CD game that is basically one of the founding principles behind this game so you can understand.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

4/15/13 10:01:51 AM#45
CD in Warhammer was done rather well after about 8 months of various patches to the engine/netcode to mostly remove the rubberbanding and ghost players (note: it took >6 years for WoW to fix ambushing a moving target, so EAMythic/WAR wasn't exactly slacking).  Particularly after they added the second "side ramp" to the lord room in keeps.  It was pretty much done at that point.  Could probably have used some terrain tuning for Forts, but Forts were out of play by that time.
  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

4/15/13 10:25:30 AM#46
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
Originally posted by Taldier
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
...
My comment about squishies hiding behind tanks was in reference to a choke point ie. keep door where you can't flank ... Sigh :/ look at big picture please
You don't have options but go after tanks when they clogging a open keep door... This was lost on you as well
No time machine, just experience playing multitude of games
But good luck.

Why would you assume that the keep fights would be totally linear around a single door?  This is the part that keeps baffling me.  Is it just lack of imagination?

Heck, even if you do assume such a simplistic scenario, if someone jams all the tanks in the front of the charge I'll just send people out over the outer wall into the middle of their mages and let the blood fly while their tanks are stuck fighting in the tunnel.

 

Everything is so linear with you.  Your argument against CD is that we should just mass AOE the doorway to fend people off.

I'm not assuming anything lol, stop taking every example I say as the be all and end all... good god look at the big picture, i'm trying to describe certain scenarios that will be problematic, and any kind of stand off around keep gates or doors, the stalemate will get drawn out far too long and become boring, especially melee dps.

You can think what you want about my arguments and opinions, but from your responses it is clear you arn't listening so i'll stop talking to you. Maybe you should play the non-CD game that is basically one of the founding principles behind this game so you can understand.

I'm getting tired of the "everything must be exactly like in DAOC" argument.  You want to claim its a foundational principle?  But it just isnt.

If this was about making an exact clone of DAOC, MJ would have said something, anything, to indicate that.  He hasnt.  He isnt spending 5 million dollars over 2 years just to give you a new UI and skins for DAOC.

Those foundational points apply to every old school game, not just one.  This is about making a new game that follows in the footsteps of that old school MMO model.  A game that doesnt hold your hand.

Regardless of whether they have CD or not, combat and strategies are not going to be just like in DAOC.  You arent going to be calling the exact same plays.  That was over 10 years ago.  They dont have the same technical limitations they did back then.

If you want to just play DAOC again without any new innovations there are freeshards of it out there.  You could probably run your own server for less than people are pledging to this project.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/15/13 10:35:46 AM#47
Originally posted by Taldier
I'm getting tired of the "everything must be exactly like in DAOC" argument.  You want to claim its a foundational principle?  But it just isnt.

If this was about making an exact clone of DAOC, MJ would have said something, anything, to indicate that.  He hasnt.  He isnt spending 5 million dollars over 2 years just to give you a new UI and skins for DAOC.

Those foundational points apply to every old school game, not just one.  This is about making a new game that follows in the footsteps of that old school MMO model.  A game that doesnt hold your hand.

Regardless of whether they have CD or not, combat and strategies are not going to be just like in DAOC.  You arent going to be calling the exact same plays.  That was over 10 years ago.  They dont have the same technical limitations they did back then.

If you want to just play DAOC again without any new innovations there are freeshards of it out there.  You could probably run your own server for less than people are pledging to this project.

You're again missing the point and screaming "everything must be like DAOC" that's not what i'm saying. What I am saying is the whole purpose of this game is a throw back to old school MMO, daoc happens to be a major player in that statement and a huge reason for the need for a new game. So you can't ignore the opinions and successes of DAOC, they are a major reason CU is even a thought. So get off your high horse, you never even played DAOC from a previous comment you made ... so get over it and either acknowledge the advice people from DAOC can bring to this game and make it better or don't and be a snob. Your choice.

combat and strategies are not going to be like DAOC ... yes we know, however from this forum and many others DAOC players ( major portion of the backers of this project ) have yet to play a game quite like DAOC. ... and DAOC combat is a BIG reason why so I don't get why we shouldn't adapt some of the things that made DAOC combat such a success ??

PS. I'm sure if there was a DAOC2 kickstarter on the table to do DAOC exactly like it is with updated graphics, UI, interface, and some minor updates there would be no hope in hell for CU to fund...

Sick of the DAOC talk or not, you gotta get over the fact DAOC was MJ's major success and to go to an old school model and not use DAOC's successes would be a huge mistake lol. .... The depths basically = darkness falls with some few new innovations... positional styles have already been announced, interupts and CC have also been announced ... gotta get over the fact the combat will likely be more like DAOC then WAR. QQ

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

4/15/13 11:23:11 AM#48
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

...so get over it and either acknowledge the advice people from DAOC can bring to this game and make it better or don't and be a snob. Your choice.

Riiight, saying that CD should be seriously considered by the team because it has huge potential for strategic play is "being a snob".  Whereas immediatly saying the idea is wrong because "it wasnt in DAOC" is being mature.  "Hail the almighty perfect DAOC.  It is completely faultless and must not be questioned!!"

PS. I'm sure if there was a DAOC2 kickstarter on the table to do DAOC exactly like it is with updated graphics, UI, interface, and some minor updates there would be no hope in hell for CU to fund...

And if this were just an updated version of DAOC it wouldnt have a nearly as much pledged now as it does either.  There is such a thing as being a niche, and then there is saying "no" to people who want almost the exact same thing as you.  "Kill the heretic!!!!!" 

Sick of the DAOC talk or not, you gotta get over the fact DAOC was MJ's major success and to go to an old school model and not use DAOC's successes would be a huge mistake lol. .... The depths basically = darkness falls with some few new innovations... positional styles have already been announced, interupts and CC have also been announced ... gotta get over the fact the combat will likely be more like DAOC then WAR. QQ

I'm not sick of talking about DAOC, its a really great game with great ideas.  Im sick of it being held up as the one and only game with any worth.  The Depths is not just darkness falls.  Those "few" innovations completely revolutionize the whole concept.  Nothing less than I'd expect from a good developer who likes to take risks.  Positionals, interrupts, and CC arent just DAOC concepts.  You have these blinders on that tell you that anything that was in DAOC was only in DAOC.  And I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm a WAR fan.  Way to elevate the debate with the "QQ". 

Wanting a creative developer to just outright remake DAOC is akin to bringing Picasso or Van Gogh forward in time to commision a painting and then asking him to just paint you a fresh copy of one of his old paintings again. 

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

4/15/13 11:33:32 AM#49

What I am saying is the whole purpose of this game is a throw back to old school MMO,

I hope not.  Last I checked CU was intended to be an RvR-focused game, period.  A good RvR game probably has a lot of "old school" aspects to it.  If you want to go really old school, they could make CU 2D with sprites.  Yeah, oldschool for oldschool!  Hoowah!

Let's release a caster class with the wrong recommended stat!  Because DAOC did it!  Yeah!

 

gotta get over the fact the combat will likely be more like DAOC then WAR. QQ

WAR had a few positional styles, had pervasive positional mechanics, interrupts, pushback, and CC.  Zzzz.

Overall WAR had a better combat system (although it took over 8 months of patches to sort everything out).  Not much else to say.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/15/13 11:42:36 AM#50
Originally posted by Taldier
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

...so get over it and either acknowledge the advice people from DAOC can bring to this game and make it better or don't and be a snob. Your choice.

Riiight, saying that CD should be seriously considered by the team because it has huge potential for strategic play is "being a snob".  Whereas immediatly saying the idea is wrong because "it wasnt in DAOC" is being mature.  "Hail the almighty perfect DAOC.  It is completely faultless and must not be questioned!!"

You outright negating things that were a success in DAOC and those members want to see in CU is you being a snob yes. So get over it, or don't, i no longer care lol. You can think what you want about people promoting DAOC concepts in this game, just like you're promoting CD everyone has that right so stop degredating the debate.

PS. I'm sure if there was a DAOC2 kickstarter on the table to do DAOC exactly like it is with updated graphics, UI, interface, and some minor updates there would be no hope in hell for CU to fund...

And if this were just an updated version of DAOC it wouldnt have a nearly as much pledged now as it does either.  There is such a thing as being a niche, and then there is saying "no" to people who want almost the exact same thing as you.  "Kill the heretic!!!!!" 

I'm merely saying most people backing this game were huge supporters of DAOC and want that niche game back. So i'm not sure what you're talking about.

Sick of the DAOC talk or not, you gotta get over the fact DAOC was MJ's major success and to go to an old school model and not use DAOC's successes would be a huge mistake lol. .... The depths basically = darkness falls with some few new innovations... positional styles have already been announced, interupts and CC have also been announced ... gotta get over the fact the combat will likely be more like DAOC then WAR. QQ

I'm not sick of talking about DAOC, its a really great game with great ideas.  Im sick of it being held up as the one and only game with any worth.  The Depths is not just darkness falls.  Those "few" innovations completely revolutionize the whole concept.  Nothing less than I'd expect from a good developer who likes to take risks.  Positionals, interrupts, and CC arent just DAOC concepts.  You have these blinders on that tell you that anything that was in DAOC was only in DAOC.  And I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm a WAR fan.  Way to elevate the debate with the "QQ". 

No one is having it being held up as the one and only game with any worth. The truth is it has a lot of concepts about 3 realm PVP that worked, and to make another 3 realm PVP game work you would think they want to look at what made DAOC a success, I personally believe no CD was a MAJOR reason for its success and I am simply promoting it. There are things about DAOC that I and many others would change, CD is just simply not. Positionals, interupts and CC done the way they were in DAOC was a DAOC concept and how they all intertwined together was another thing that made combat so fluid and fun for everyone. So that is what I was refering to, but again to the extreme. 

Elevated by your continued whining.

Wanting a creative developer to just outright remake DAOC is akin to bringing Picasso or Van Gogh forward in time to commision a painting and then asking him to just paint you a fresh copy of one of his old paintings again. 

Again maybe you will listen now that this is in orange, but no ones asking for a DAOC clone, we are looking for a game with old school concepts with new fresh update, but people want the mass battle on battle action that made daoc so great. I'm sad you don't agree that not having CD in daoc was a major reason for that continued support / long lasting memberships, however I do. :)

 

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

4/15/13 12:03:23 PM#51
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

 You outright negating things that were a success in DAOC and those members want to see in CU is you being a snob yes. So get over it, or don't, i no longer care lol. You can think what you want about people promoting DAOC concepts in this game, just like you're promoting CD everyone has that right so stop degredating the debate...

So just actually describe why not having CD is so great.  In both of these threads I keep throwing ideas at you of creative things you can put in a game with CD that all sound pretty great to me.

All I've been hearing in response is either:

"It will cause lag", which is completely conjecture.  We have no basis to determine what their engine can or cant do.

or else:

"CD is lame because DAOC combat was good and didnt have CD" and then some sort of vague idea that AOE's and CD somehow cant coexist.

I'm not "degrading the debate", I'm asking for the causes and rational behind your opinion.  I get that you have one.  Everyone has opinions.  Opinions arent worth a damn unless you can get the ideas behind them across to other people, which we both appear to be failing at here.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/15/13 12:12:56 PM#52
Originally posted by Taldier
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek

 You outright negating things that were a success in DAOC and those members want to see in CU is you being a snob yes. So get over it, or don't, i no longer care lol. You can think what you want about people promoting DAOC concepts in this game, just like you're promoting CD everyone has that right so stop degredating the debate...

So just actually describe why not having CD is so great.  In both of these threads I keep throwing ideas at you of creative things you can put in a game with CD that all sound pretty great to me.

All I've been hearing in response is either:

"It will cause lag", which is completely conjecture.  We have no basis to determine what their engine can or cant do.

or else:

"CD is lame because DAOC combat was good and didnt have CD" and then some sort of vague idea that AOE's and CD somehow cant coexist.

I'm not "degrading the debate", I'm asking for the causes and rational behind your opinion.  I get that you have one.  Everyone has opinions.  Opinions arent worth a damn unless you can get the ideas behind them across to other people, which we both appear to be failing at here.

All the ideas people have for CD don't seem great to me, and i've been involved in every one of the CD debate threads and heard a lot, I def do a lot of thinking about it and draw on my experiences playing games with and without.

It causing lag isn't the response, the issue with CD and lag is that you will enevidably sacrifice other things to get CD in, even if the engine can handle it, the engine will handle no CD and better graphics or put CD and drop graphics a little again. As far as i've read they are already planning on dropping graphics from what games expect anyway, just don't see for the "positives" i keep hearing you would want to.

CD isn't lame because DAOC combat was good, but part of the reason DAOC combat was so good was lack of CD. I have imagined CD even with the "fixes" for trolling, being put into DAOC and it would be a cluster-fck of fail. Means you have to install abilities and skills to work with CD so CD doesn't become this over powered "skill" everyone has. Those alternatives that I see are ones I do not want to see in a game ever again as "fun" as they are the one time you troll someone off a bridge.

I've never been the best at explaining my rationales, but I keep trying because what I see and have seen through games are utter failures and I can't see a path to success to put CD into this game. How fun are battles on those "narrow" bridges in the Depths going to be if you can't CC and bust through into the back, I dislike mechanics that promote stand offs ... drains the fun really fast.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

4/15/13 12:36:04 PM#53

How fun are battles on those "narrow" bridges in the Depths going to be if you can't CC and bust through into the back, I dislike mechanics that promote stand offs ... drains the fun really fast.

 

They are really fun when you buckle down and learn how to play the game, then bust through the tank wall and win.

Face it: your entire argument boils down to you being afraid of something you're not familiar with.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/15/13 1:01:26 PM#54
How is busting down a tank wall the same way everytime fun? Maybe the first time... My point was these things get monotonous and boring fast.
You're entitled to think whatever you want about my reasons for promoting no CD but you are very incorrect

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

4/15/13 1:14:26 PM#55
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
How is busting down a tank wall the same way everytime fun? Maybe the first time... My point was these things get monotonous and boring fast.
You're entitled to think whatever you want about my reasons for promoting no CD but you are very incorrect

I guess this is really the problem.  Why do you assume that CD would be implemented in a way that there would only be one way to interact with it?

If you over simplify everything down that far people will just shoot back at you "How is charging in and alpha-striking your target the same way everytime fun?"

 

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/15/13 1:23:08 PM#56
The difference is if you run through you have target options
In the CD stand off you have one option
I dislike that option

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

4/15/13 1:29:46 PM#57
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
The difference is if you run through you have target options
In the CD stand off you have one option
I dislike that option

But you just naturally decide that there will be only one way to deal with CD.

Its just false.  Even the worst implementations of CD arent this one-dimensional.

You've just decided to be against it and refuse to even think about any other game elements.

  EasymodeX

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 152

4/15/13 1:31:50 PM#58

How is busting down a tank wall the same way everytime fun? Maybe the first time... My point was these things get monotonous and boring fast. 

Why do you think it's the same way every time?

In WAR you could morale bomb it, you could knock it back (especially off a bridge in your example).  You could accessory-cheese it with 100% pen and range AOE.  You could hit it with raw AOE damage (but that's usually not gonna work, lulz).

You could flank it based on terrain.

You could bypass it and pull the backline out front depending on LOS.  You could dive past it and knock them forward and out of position.

Edit:  You could sneak past it / jump over it and kill / suppress some of the backline healers, which will erode the tank wall very fast, depending on your team's AOE damage output.  Did this once in a city instance where me and 3 other WEs backflipped past the tanks trying to plug a chokepoint.  Wasted a good chunk of their healers and they couldn't hold.

 

The difference is if you run through you have target options

No, you don't.  You AOE mez everything then assist train the softest target.

The end.

If you want to simplify CD mechanics down to 1 solution, I can simplify any PvP skirmish fight into 1 solution.

AOE CC and assist train. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/15/13 1:34:59 PM#59
Choke point fights leave you with one option beat tanks and then push to win
You have to target closest targets who will just run through their supporters ruining your position forcing target swapping or able to beat on them while they crouch then simple pass through the further wall of people whatever you solution to friendly CD is I can't see it working from any ideas presented

As fun as that sounds as a primary melee dps class player ill pass unless they have more clever ideas than the ones suggested here so far


Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/15/13 1:41:21 PM#60
Zzzzz all you want that's not how fights against equal opponents turned into

All your options involve casters and lame mechanics ( knockbacks ) which I'm eternally hopeful doesn't make it into this game either
As fun as it is to knock people off bridges using basically no skill and be able to push a button is fun the first few times it becomes very lame.
I don't think casters and healers care much either way and get why they prefer cd as it is likely more overpowered ability than any defensive skill they will get, why wouldn't you like it? Doesn't matter to you only makes it easier to play
Gives tanks a "role" which I think is goofy at best but some people like it
But totally ruins any kind of chance at usefulness for melee dps characters
Maybe it's solved not having melee dps options who knows?

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

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