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Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained 

General Discussion  » POLL: Should there be some type of Player to Player Collision Detection in CU?

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123 posts found
  Melloz

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/13
Posts: 26

4/14/13 1:47:17 PM#21
Originally posted by boxfetish

In all of the threads on this subject on MMORPG.com I think it is abundantly clear which "side" if this debate the misinformation and even more often the lack of information is coming from.

And I think the point of the 2D comparison (which should be obivous to anyone that doesn't intentionally misunderstand arguments) is that 2D and "no CD" are both antiquated jokes given the technical capabilities of today.  Arguing against CD is like arguing against the horseless carriage.   The rest of us are ready for our MMOs to move into the 21st century, why aren't you?

Are you intentionally trolling?  These types of absolutes aren't really helpful.  Give real reasons other than "You all are stuck in the past!".  IMO, we should be focusing on the most enjoyable type of combat that provides the most interesting strategies that will allow more skilled players to succeed.  Not just trying to get the most realistic combat possible with current (or near future) technology.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/14/13 1:53:54 PM#22
That has nothing to do with the argument lol
Just because CD is a newer mechanic doesn't make it more enjoyable to play
We will see as I'm sure they will experiment with it for sure and until it gets tested most people won't see the draw backs
Your side of the argument is so hung up in needing CD because its "more realistic" "stupid someone can pass right through me" etc reasons which side track you from alternatives
It's a waste of time trying to explain the other side of the coin to you
To your comment about joining the "21dt century" lol hasn't it been proven this game is a throw back to old school mmo? Why? Because the key components to those old school moms were a major part of their success. CD included IMO

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  hawkryl

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/13/12
Posts: 24

4/14/13 2:11:14 PM#23

 

YES!... (as long as it is tested with the founders and doesn't hurt gameplay/perfomance).  As I posted in the other thread on this topic, I think every effort should be made to implement some type of CD.  I wouldnt mind it being an aura or ability that tank or melee type toons can turn on/off at the cost damage output.(just an idea)  But most importantly is the fact that if it is in the game it is done the right way and works. 

I played and loved DAOC and like most posters that i have read on CU's forum, alot of my favorite/best MMO memories come from RvR and the battlegrounds.  However, I believe MJ/CSE are going to have alot of new ideas on combat/gameplay/experience systems and just because they weren't in DAOC doesnt mean they are automatically FAIL.  They know what works and hopefully they have learned what doesn't.  Most importantly i think that since the launch of the Kickstarted they have shown an unparelled level of communication and implementing not only what the founders have posted , but also what many who are sitting on the fence have asked for as well.  I think we all (both fans and haters) need to keep in mind that the release date, Holidays 2015, is a long way off and that there is a lot of work to be done before we say any one concept is either make it or break it...... imho

  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

4/14/13 2:14:48 PM#24
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
Quite mis informed to compare no CD o a 2D game
It was no coincidence the best pvp game of all time didn't have CD
Pbaoe was prob the one unique spell that made daoc so great and honestly it just isn't 10% as effective with CD

It's not a coincidence at all that DAOC didnt have CD.

 

DAOC was made in 2001.  Should we use DAOC's graphics too?

 

People dont want to just play an exact copy of DAOC.  If they did, they would be playing DAOC.

 

People want to play a new game that follows in the same spiritual footsteps by focusing on RPG PvP combat to become this decade's DAOC.

  Raunu

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/18/04
Posts: 486

4/14/13 2:28:38 PM#25
Originally posted by Taldier
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
Quite mis informed to compare no CD o a 2D game
It was no coincidence the best pvp game of all time didn't have CD
Pbaoe was prob the one unique spell that made daoc so great and honestly it just isn't 10% as effective with CD

It's not a coincidence at all that DAOC didnt have CD.

 

DAOC was made in 2001.  Should we use DAOC's graphics too?

 

People dont want to just play an exact copy of DAOC.  If they did, they would be playing DAOC.

 

People want to play a new game that follows in the same spiritual footsteps by focusing on RPG PvP combat to become this decade's DAOC.

Actually, I'd play a copy of DAoC if they updated the game.  Update the animations, controles, graphics and some other goodies and I'd totally play DAoC.  The biggest reason I don't play anymore is because the control scheme feels way too slugish and outdated to me.  I took a break for a while and played some more modern MMOs, then went back to DAoC and couldn't get used to the movement again.

- - "What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?" - -

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/14/13 2:40:06 PM#26
I agree people don't want to play daoc, but it has nothing to do with this argument and CD
That's for other posts ...

I also believe to follow in the footsteps of daoc's rpg pvp combat is integral to CU success. Not having CD was an integral part of daoc success and to achieve the long lasting enjoyment of pvp.... not having CD is key
IMO
Time will tell maybe I'm wrong prove me wrong? I hope they don't bother because of performance as wanting CD and not apparently comes down to preference and what class that person plays. As a healer why wouldn't you want the enemy stuck behind your tanks so you can heal at ease ... Poor melee dps going to be bored as shit in keep battles
Eye for an eye I guess

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  boxfetish

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 81

4/14/13 3:55:24 PM#27
Originally posted by Melloz
Originally posted by boxfetish

In all of the threads on this subject on MMORPG.com I think it is abundantly clear which "side" if this debate the misinformation and even more often the lack of information is coming from.

And I think the point of the 2D comparison (which should be obivous to anyone that doesn't intentionally misunderstand arguments) is that 2D and "no CD" are both antiquated jokes given the technical capabilities of today.  Arguing against CD is like arguing against the horseless carriage.   The rest of us are ready for our MMOs to move into the 21st century, why aren't you?

Are you intentionally trolling?  These types of absolutes aren't really helpful.  Give real reasons other than "You all are stuck in the past!".  IMO, we should be focusing on the most enjoyable type of combat that provides the most interesting strategies that will allow more skilled players to succeed.  Not just trying to get the most realistic combat possible with current (or near future) technology.

 

Hyperbole is as hyperbole does.  Focus on the content of your own posts and everything will fall into place, my son.  

I feel like I am intentionally anti-trolling the anti-CD trolls, thanks for asking.  I and others (much better than I could) have outlined in detail why PvP with CD is better than without and why older games probably didn't have it (hint: due to technology at the time).  I don't think I or the others should have to rehash every single argument in every post in perpetuity to avoid the troll label.   Especially, when the only arguments against it so far are either "It will be poorly implemented, I just know it!" or "Waahhhhh!!!! DOaC didn't have it!!!!".


 

IMO, we should be focusing on the most enjoyable type of combat that provides the most interesting strategies that will allow more skilled players to succeed.  Not just trying to get the most realistic combat possible with current (or near future) technology.

I agree.  Luckily collision detection allows us to do both.  Problem solved.  We can move on to the issue of stealth now.

I think we can put the "But WAR implmented it badly and DAoC didn't have it so neither can CU" argument to bed.  I will be doing internal testing for this game and I will be the first person to step up and say "I really wanted CD but CSE can't make it work smoothly with their engine, so it's a no go and we will have to rely on CC to simulate it" IF we/they can't get it to a state where it's smoothly integrated into the game.

  boxfetish

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 81

4/14/13 4:03:21 PM#28
 
  boxfetish

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 81

4/14/13 4:06:40 PM#29
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
I agree people don't want to play daoc, but it has nothing to do with this argument and CD
That's for other posts ...

I also believe to follow in the footsteps of daoc's rpg pvp combat is integral to CU success. Not having CD was an integral part of daoc success and to achieve the long lasting enjoyment of pvp.... not having CD is key
IMO
Time will tell maybe I'm wrong prove me wrong? I hope they don't bother because of performance as wanting CD and not apparently comes down to preference and what class that person plays. As a healer why wouldn't you want the enemy stuck behind your tanks so you can heal at ease ... Poor melee dps going to be bored as shit in keep battles
Eye for an eye I guess

Fallacy.  Seriously.

So, you will be melee DPS and the bunny hop, circle-jerk, button mash spam strategy will be nullified by CD, that's what this is about?

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/14/13 4:36:22 PM#30
Arguments pro CD :
The game must be more "realistic"
Adds depth to combat and tactics

Arguments against CD :
Pointless addition to combat which only hinders performance, which those added resources could be better spent improving all other resource draining aspects of the game
Causes many ways for people to troll other players or abuse CD to exploit over powered tactics
Not having CD provides just as many "tactical options " they change change, meaning healers and ranged don't 'just' have to hide behind tanks they have to think about the possibility of their position If people rush in and be prepared
Provides many more options for groups to defend against enemies much larger than their own (think pbaoe in keeps) and many more options to employ while attacking a keep once a door falls instead of just squaring off in a game of who kills each others tanks first everytime, you have ability of groups to rush in and turn the tide of battle

Personally I know how much more fluid combat seems in a non cd method and I would much prefer those added resource enabling more people, better castles, smoother combat
Then add CD to satisfys people's need for real life combat

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  JoeShmoe75

Novice Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 20

4/14/13 4:43:16 PM#31

CD takes good games and turns them into piles of steaming s***. I'll stick with CD in my single player games, it does not belong in MMO's. A low budget game with mass battles will never pull off fluid combat if they put in CD.

Insta flop inc if they put it in. Sorry, but in my  nearly 20yrs of gaming my stance on CD in MMO's is still the same because its proven. In another 10yrs maybe gaming will be ready for real CD.

  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

4/14/13 4:59:36 PM#32
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
Arguments pro CD :
The game must be more "realistic"
Adds depth to combat and tactics

Arguments against CD :
Pointless addition to combat which only hinders performance, which those added resources could be better spent improving all other resource draining aspects of the game

This isnt an argument.  We've already said that if CD cant be implemented well, then it shouldnt be.  Arguing that it shouldnt even be considered because the in-house engine that we know nothing about might not be able to handle it is asinine.
Causes many ways for people to troll other players or abuse CD to exploit over powered tactics
This is just false. I dont know how many times we have to say youre wrong.  If you take even 10 minutes to think about it, all of these problems are easily handled.
Not having CD provides just as many "tactical options " they change change, meaning healers and ranged don't 'just' have to hide behind tanks they have to think about the possibility of their position If people rush in and be prepared
If squishier classes just hide behind a line of tanks they'll find themselves in trouble when the surprise attack charges into their ranks from the rear.  And the tanks wont be able to just run through the players behind them to react.  Every strategy has a strategy that can counter it.  You just have to create an enviornment that is robust enough for people to have the opportunity to come up with those strategies.
Provides many more options for groups to defend against enemies much larger than their own (think pbaoe in keeps) and many more options to employ while attacking a keep once a door falls instead of just squaring off in a game of who kills each others tanks first everytime, you have ability of groups to rush in and turn the tide of battle
This makes no sense at all.  CD forces larger groups to advance more slowly through a chokepoint.  And why would you be going for the tanks first?  You should be finding ways around them, not charging blindly onto a line of pikes.  Everything you say keeps going back to DAOC and you refuse to see any way for these things to evolve.  The doors falling down?  What about the walls being broken through?  Or ladders climbing over them?
Without CD the larger force is able to bring their numbers fully to bear.  The entire fight devolving into one giant pile of players fighting on top of each other. 
 
Personally I know how much more fluid combat seems in a non cd method and I would much prefer those added resource enabling more people, better castles, smoother combat
How do you know?  You've returned from the future to tell us all about CU's in-house engine and combat mechanics?   Thats absolutely amazing.  Can I borrow your time machine?

 

  boxfetish

Novice Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 81

4/14/13 5:06:18 PM#33
Get ready to be disappointed guys.  It's 2013, not 1993.   Game won't even start testing until 2014.  You gaming experts don't have any more experience with games and MMOs than I do, so anonymous credentials on the internet = failsauce.   I hope nobody quits when they find out that the engine is going to be designed and built with CD in mind going in, but don't be surprised is all I am saying.  I am not affiliated with CSE at all, but I know Mark Jacobs doesn't have his head up his backside and is going to push the envelope when it comes to meaningful and challenging PvP.  That's as much as an admission of CD in my book.
  Melloz

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/13
Posts: 26

4/14/13 5:32:05 PM#34

The problems I see with p2p CD is that it can turn areas with choke points into stalemates.  You set up a tank wall and heal/rez through the damage.  Turns things into a numbers battle with little skill.  Eventually one side gets bored and gives up or makes a valiant effot and wipes.  During this time, there's little for your meele DPS to do.

There must be ways to defeat the wall other than numbers.  One way to do that is adding knockback to break up the wall.  I think it would have to be more powerful than WAR's, because there, most of the wall would just bounce against a nearby object, run back in a second, and then be imune from knockback for a time.  Anything you give the attackers, you give the defenders though and you run the risk of fights turning into something like smackhammer.  I'm not a big fan of knockbacks.

At the very least, there must be ways to out flank the opposition.  All open world choke points need to have nearby routes around the choke.  With keeps, this could go down the path of having meele dps be able to climb walls.  They've have to be able to receive group support from outside though and this leads to crying about keeps being ninja'd.  The best way might be to allow siege weapons to completely destroy buildings.  This would give the defenders time to wait for reinforcements, but they'd eventually have to come out or be destroyed.  I'm afraid that might be creating a lot of boring play for a lot of players though. 

Then I step back and ask, what is p2p CD really adding to the game that makes it better?  And I can't think of much.  The argument is usually that you make tanks useful, but you have to make them useful in open combat anyway.

  Niix_Ozek

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/13
Posts: 404

4/14/13 5:59:13 PM#35
To the person posting in red :
MJ and Andrew have stated numerous times that they will be lowering the quality of graphics etc to ensure optimal performance, I am clearly just stating that CD will be a performance hit and with the already hits to graphics I woul prefer no CD and better graphics / keeps etc.

It's not false, whatever system you develop to handle people trolling it is going to take a hit to the fluidity of combat I don't care what you say

My comment about squishies hiding behind tanks was in reference to a choke point ie. keep door where you can't flank ... Sigh :/ look at big picture please
You don't have options but go after tanks when they clogging a open keep door... This was lost on you as well
No time machine, just experience playing multitude of games
But good luck.

Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked

  aRtFuLThinG

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1000

4/14/13 5:59:34 PM#36
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

I had to vote yes. Any game that's going to focus purely on RvR has got to have CD included. If you're defending a keep and the gate is breached your natural 2nd line of defence will be your shield wall. If the enemy can just run through that then what's the fucking point?

What, the gate goes and we're fucked? Nah. Gotta be able to block the opposition or it's just too simplistic. I've seen arguments for and against CD and the word realism gets thrown around a lot. I don't see anything wrong with a more realistic system tbh, but what I don't want it to be is too easy. The ability to slow down your enemy by throwing bodies at them is exactly as it should be.

 This.

One of the best aspect about WAR is you can prevent people from entering the keep by stacking up shea numbers at the door once it breached (which is how it was supposed to be, in siege warfare).

If you can just run through defense at will and assassinate them from behind there is really not much point in defending sieges.

I got a feeling that a lot of those that voted no are people who likes to run stealth classes or caster classes that favours having no obstruction at all (like for example the more survivable hybrid caster classes). Casters that are squishy, range non-caster classes or tanks I can't forsee will like having no CD at all (I guess that's why the poll is 1/3 saying no CD is good).

  waynejr2

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3663

RIP City of Heroes!

4/14/13 6:06:43 PM#37
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

I had to vote yes. Any game that's going to focus purely on RvR has got to have CD included. If you're defending a keep and the gate is breached your natural 2nd line of defence will be your shield wall. If the enemy can just run through that then what's the fucking point?

What, the gate goes and we're fucked? Nah. Gotta be able to block the opposition or it's just too simplistic. I've seen arguments for and against CD and the word realism gets thrown around a lot. I don't see anything wrong with a more realistic system tbh, but what I don't want it to be is too easy. The ability to slow down your enemy by throwing bodies at them is exactly as it should be.

 This.

One of the best aspect about WAR is you can prevent people from entering the keep by stacking up shea numbers at the door once it breached (which is how it was supposed to be, in siege warfare).

If you can just run through defense at will and assassinate them from behind there is really not much point in defending sieges.

I got a feeling that a lot of those that voted no are people who likes to run stealth classes or caster classes that favours having no obstruction at all (like for example the more survivable hybrid caster classes). Casters that are squishy, range non-caster classes or tanks I can't forsee will like having no CD at all (I guess that's why the poll is 1/3 saying no CD is good).

 What I don't like in WAR is the limited CD.  It should affect everyone the same.  No running through your side.

  Taldier

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/10
Posts: 249

4/14/13 9:14:21 PM#38
Originally posted by Niix_Ozek
...
My comment about squishies hiding behind tanks was in reference to a choke point ie. keep door where you can't flank ... Sigh :/ look at big picture please
You don't have options but go after tanks when they clogging a open keep door... This was lost on you as well
No time machine, just experience playing multitude of games
But good luck.

Why would you assume that the keep fights would be totally linear around a single door?  This is the part that keeps baffling me.  Is it just lack of imagination?

Heck, even if you do assume such a simplistic scenario, if someone jams all the tanks in the front of the charge I'll just send people out over the outer wall into the middle of their mages and let the blood fly while their tanks are stuck fighting in the tunnel.

 

Everything is so linear with you.  Your argument against CD is that we should just mass AOE the doorway to fend people off.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9958

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

4/14/13 10:09:53 PM#39

I voted "Maybe". It's the kind of thing that can make things a lot better if done right, and can make a game nearly unplayable if done wrong.

For instance, if you have larger scale battles, with 50+ people per side, the combat is eventually going to clump up. Those clumps are going to be a big pain if the players all get tied up in a knot where nobody in the middle can move. Especially if there are player driven vehicles.

On the other hand, it adds an element of strategy, planning and a minimum skill requirement that doesn't exist without player to player collision detection. Positioning actually matters. Where you run actually matters. You have to look where you're going if you're in a group of people. The collision detection adds a whole layer of game play.

One thing I am sure about is that collision detection outside of combat is annoying and should not exist. Yes, it can make a virtual world more "real". It will also be abused in every way possible. It doesn't add enough to make up for the jackholes that abuse it.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  User Deleted
4/14/13 10:15:50 PM#40
Originally posted by lizardbones

I voted "Maybe". It's the kind of thing that can make things a lot better if done right, and can make a game nearly unplayable if done wrong.

There's the $50,000 question: What is "done right"? I'm not sure anybody can describe what that is.

Who knows, maybe Foundational Principles Online can pull it off. We will just have to wait and see.

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